Attacking Sony: Can we take a breather?

Mel Snyder wrote:
tomtom50 wrote:
Second. 35mm lenses from 40mm to 50mm are called normal, with 35mm often considered normal on the wide side, and in the old days 55mm and 58mm accepted as normal (but not generally preferred)

NEX needs a fast pancake from 35mm to 50mm 35mm equivalent. Fast means f2 or faster. Reasonably priced. A thrifty fifity.

I have a NEX, but I bought an EOS-m because NEX won't give me that basic lens. If I like the EOS better I might sell the NEX.
An EOS mount lens will fit roughly 50 million cameras with EOS mounts. I'd suggest you sell your NEX if you're holding out till Sony can sell you that lens for the price of the EOS-M with one.
So just after you post a very long rant explaining why negative comments about Sony design choices drive away potential customers and will be the death of NEX, you tell a current user to sell their NEX system and move to the more popular brand. I'll bet that one former user who says "I had NEX, but Sony couldn't deliver ... so I dropped it for xyz" will result in more people not choosing NEX than multiple users who write "Sony really needs to sell us a 22 f/1.8".

The other thing that turns new buyers off is the hostility towards users with valid negative comments.

tom
 
I agree with Mel's assessment above, shooting through thick glass at a moving (despite sitting, a rabbit is always breathing, sniffing, listening for danger and ready to run) target doesn't prove anything much.

A very simple sharpness test for your lens is put it stable on a table facing a dollar bill or wine label etc, turn off OSS, in A mode & 2 sec timer drive mode, auto or manual focus on the centre of the bill, click, let go the camera and don't touch the table, or let anyone walk by if the floor isn't stable, before the 2 secs are up. Very simple, very revealing of quality. E.g. this for a manual 35/2 lens @ f2:

8077686538_2ef4e7d35d_o.jpg


This is rough, but good enough to eliminate all the issues potentially plaguing your shots - the extra glass, camera shake, subject movement etc. It doesn't test corner sharpness, focal plane alignment, curvature, or anything else - just central sharpness, which is good enough for me, mostly. When you know how sharp your camera/lens CAN be like this, then you know that any shot falling short of that is for other reasons, like conditions, shake etc.

--
Regards,
Alan
 
tom wrote:
Mel Snyder wrote:
tomtom50 wrote:

Second. 35mm lenses from 40mm to 50mm are called normal, with 35mm often considered normal on the wide side, and in the old days 55mm and 58mm accepted as normal (but not generally preferred)

NEX needs a fast pancake from 35mm to 50mm 35mm equivalent. Fast means f2 or faster. Reasonably priced. A thrifty fifity.

I have a NEX, but I bought an EOS-m because NEX won't give me that basic lens. If I like the EOS better I might sell the NEX.
An EOS mount lens will fit roughly 50 million cameras with EOS mounts. I'd suggest you sell your NEX if you're holding out till Sony can sell you that lens for the price of the EOS-M with one.
Is he talking about a cheap SLR 50mm lens or a new mirrorless-mount lens? I'm confused now.
So just after you post a very long rant explaining why negative comments about Sony design choices drive away potential customers and will be the death of NEX, you tell a current user to sell their NEX system and move to the more popular brand. I'll bet that one former user who says "I had NEX, but Sony couldn't deliver ... so I dropped it for xyz" will result in more people not choosing NEX than multiple users who write "Sony really needs to sell us a 22 f/1.8".
If the goal is to have cheap SLR lenses available, then you're probably better off getting an SLR, whether it's made by Sony, Canon, or whoever. Those 50mm lenses were even made as kit lenses for some Minolta cameras. There's a bajillion of them, which kind of increases supply in the supply vs. demand equation. So, yeah, probably hard to compete with that.
The other thing that turns new buyers off is the hostility towards users with valid negative comments.
Was he really "hostile"? Argumentative, for sure. Maybe there's a place on the internet that is without any argument. That place would not be DPR, however. ;-)
 
Mel Snyder wrote:
And it's no more effective with persuading a corporation to do what you want it to do. In fact, it's the least likely tactic to get, say, fast zooms.
While I have no proof that online complaints were directly responsible, I believe that they're part of the reaction that drives change. So rather than say "in response to" complaints (because that would be presumptious) I'll say that "after response to" complaints, Sony has taken some actions:

- Addressed complaints about high noise levels in A100 when developing A700 (a Sony rep at Photoplus actually told me this directly, though reps aren't always reliable sources of info)

- Finally put Auto ISO in M mode in A99 & RX1 (hopefully will make it into more models in future)

- Put out a FW update to improve UI in NEX5

- Made additional future mods to subsequent NEX models (more customization)

- Put more traditional Alpha style menu in NEX-6

- Released another pancake lens after the 16

I'm sure there are other examples. After the NEX-5 enjoyed some success, particularly with adapters, they started showing NEX adapted to various legacy gear (including Leica stuff) at trade shows like Photoplus Expo, and commented in an interview that they were surprised by the way in which advanced users were using NEX.

In short, Sony DOES listen. It's unfortunate that they tend to do so much of their listening after the fact, but it's better than not listening at all.

It could be worse ... most photographers just have little interest in Nikon 1 or Canon EOS-M. All the noise over here is because people see so much potential in NEX and are frustrated that it's not far enough along yet to be what everyone wants it to be.

- Dennis
 
Dennis wrote:
Mel Snyder wrote:

And it's no more effective with persuading a corporation to do what you want it to do. In fact, it's the least likely tactic to get, say, fast zooms.
While I have no proof that online complaints were directly responsible, I believe that they're part of the reaction that drives change. So rather than say "in response to" complaints (because that would be presumptious) I'll say that "after response to" complaints, Sony has taken some actions:

- Addressed complaints about high noise levels in A100 when developing A700 (a Sony rep at Photoplus actually told me this directly, though reps aren't always reliable sources of info)

- Finally put Auto ISO in M mode in A99 & RX1 (hopefully will make it into more models in future)

- Put out a FW update to improve UI in NEX5

- Made additional future mods to subsequent NEX models (more customization)

- Put more traditional Alpha style menu in NEX-6

- Released another pancake lens after the 16

I'm sure there are other examples. After the NEX-5 enjoyed some success, particularly with adapters, they started showing NEX adapted to various legacy gear (including Leica stuff) at trade shows like Photoplus Expo, and commented in an interview that they were surprised by the way in which advanced users were using NEX.

In short, Sony DOES listen. It's unfortunate that they tend to do so much of their listening after the fact, but it's better than not listening at all.

It could be worse ... most photographers just have little interest in Nikon 1 or Canon EOS-M. All the noise over here is because people see so much potential in NEX and are frustrated that it's not far enough along yet to be what everyone wants it to be.

- Dennis
 
Mel Snyder wrote:

Dennis - Sony is a mass marketer. There are cameras they know have a small market, like the RX1. It was a test to see if rich Chinese and other global status seekers in the USA and elsewhere might buy it.
My impression of Sony from products I've looked at and purchased in years past, prior to their takeover of the Maxxum line, was that they tend to produce (high quality) products that qre unique enough in some way from the competition that it makes it difficult to do an apples to oranges comparison. Even in the early Cybershot days (I had an F717) they had that going for them. I think they're rediscovering that right now, particularly with the RX line. I think they tried it with the Alpha SLTs, but selling a system product is a lot different from selling a standalone product.
Why is that relevant? Because the NEX system is not likely to have an E mount full frame camera. If Sony goes full frame, it won't be a NEX form factor.
I admit that I have not been following the FF rumors too well. I don't find SAR reliable in general; they've nailed a few rumors in the past, and tend leak details a few days before an announcement. I don't rule out something with FF and NEX but I don't take it at face value, either.

Consider the VG900. Full frame sensor. E-mount. Uses Alpha lenses via adapter. So already, the existence of APS-C format e-Mount lenses has not precluded Sony from producing a FF e-Mount camera.
The E mount line begins and ends with APS-C cameras - no matter the presence of a clipped-corner video camera that takes E mount lenses. Sony has quite enough lenses for a line that has failed to meet sales aspirations. They're moving on...
I'm not making predictions, but I consider it very possible that Sony would love to consolidate the NEX & Alpha product lines by producing e-mount cameras and relying on adapters to satisfy A mount lens users. This is a tricky proposition, and maybe they can't completely eliminate A mount bodies, but they might reduce the total number of models.

- Dennis
 
i personally dont understand why people flock to nex
image quality is not heaven and earth different from mft or samsung nx
but nex usability is heaven and earth lower than mft and samsung nx
you cant set the upper limit of iso iso in 2011 models?
you are limited with a super panel of just 6 functions?
nex 6 users are frustated to find suitable flash guns?
lenses that need to be heavily corrected by software?
menu that sucks completely?
a camera that cost 600 bucks and you cant attach a flash gun? nex 5 series?
hello! are we not in 2013?
i chose samsung nx a much superior cam than nex
although apparently sony sales marketing manager is more superior to that of samsung
 
An interesting thread for sure...and FWIW I'll toss out a couple 'pros' regarding forums and Sony's NEX line.
As one of those who had built up quite an investment in Canon products years ago, the digital evolution essentially sidelined all my gear.
But I saved all that gear all these years betting on the come that some company somewhere would eventually come up with something that would breathe fresh life into the untold millions of good fast Canon FD lenses in all the closets around the country / world.
And Sony has done that.

Now the following Canon FD lenses have all sprung back to life with my NEX7:

24 / 2.8
28 / 2.8
35 / 2.0
50 / 1.4
85 / 1.8
70-210 / 4.0
135 / 2.8
200 / 2.8
300 / 4.0
300 / 4.0 L
400 / 4.5

Retiring last year I wanted to re-engage my photography hobby and started Googling (again) for any possible reuse of Canon FD lenses and bingo, hit on a forum that was specifically oriented to that and was giving rave reviews about the Sony NEX7 & Fotodiox FD/NEX adapter using FD lenses. Long story short, after some more digging around, I bought one.
I've really only found 3 little items to be annoying for me and have resolved them all:
1) Small size for big hands...added a half-case for more bulk;
2) Inadvertent triggering Video button due to big hands...a "Luther Guard" is solving that;
3) EVF eye cup was smaller than I like...Larger Sony eye cup is solving that;

Like a previous post mentioned, I'm definitely one of those who went after the NEX7 to get 80% DSLR capability with interchangeable lenses even though the body is 50% smaller.
And on that note, I don't hold up any large lens with the camera body, I hold the lens and the little body is simply attached to the back of the lens.

So I give big marks to forums...a Canon FD / NEX Forum that let this retiree reengage a hobby with a major investment already on hand...and for the good that comes out of this DPR NEX Talk Forum as I learn my way with the NEX7 itself.
 
Mel Snyder wrote:

I'd like to suggest that we take a breather from attacking Sony here on the forum.

"Attacking" comes in all forms here. "Since Sony didn't choose to favor us with a fast zoom," is a mild example.

Constant bashing of kit zooms is the worst, because the overwhelming number of people who buy cameras want to buy a body and a kit zoom. They have absolutely ZERO interest in buying a camera Chinese menu style. They want to put their money on a box, charge the battery, and start taking photos. Knock the kit zoom and you kill the brand for the mass market.

Anyone who's tried to get better behavior out of a teenager knows that the bashing psychology so abundant here doesn't get the behavior you want.

And it's no more effective with persuading a corporation to do what you want it to do. In fact, it's the least likely tactic to get, say, fast zooms.

There's a business reality cycle here that many forum denizens don't seem to recognize:

1. You start to attack Sony for some deficit in a camera or lens

2. Others, for a variety of reasons, begin to pile on. Sort of like wolves joining a fellow pack member trying to bring down a deer. Hey, if my buddy is successful, I may get the scraps...

3. Thousands of people all over the world see the discontent here. Potential NEX buyers see the malcontents spouting here, and check out the MFT threads, and there, it's mostly sweetness and love.

Guess what they buy.

Sony may or may not monitor the forums, but bet your bippy they monitor sales. They see sales going up at their competition, and not on their brands. The brand manager who asks for more money at the next marketing meeting gets shut down.

"Do a better job with the money we've already given you." When he asks for more development money for a fast zoom, he's told, "Show us you can sell what you've already got, and then come back for that funding."

There's a sad reality about business, my friends:

"If the wagon moves by itself, a company will invest in a horse."

Now that's stupid, you may think: How could a wagon move by itself?

It doesn't - but companies still hope that a few press releases, getting the first units into the hands of friendly bloggers and reviewers, and some online ads will make a new wagon move with little investment. If it does, they'll really invest. That's especially true in Japan, home of the "nail that stick up gets hammered down" psychology.

The brand manager must make a forecast to get R&D and marketing investment. If it isn't pretty aggressive, he won't get any. But if he doesn't make his numbers after 3-4 quarters, he won't get more until the brand does better.

And so, all the criticism here works against that brand manager. You pee on his brand, people buy the competition, he doesn't make his numbers, he doesn't get more money...

And your chances of getting that fast zoom you want get lower and lower.

Finally, at one of those Sony USA corporate marketing meetings, some guy from McKinsey Consulting comes in with an analysis of marketplace brand performance, and proposes that Sony could improve its bottom line by focusing its investment in, say, Alpha DLSRs, and leaving the mirrorless market to bit players like Olympus and Panasonic. Everyone sagely nods acceptance.

At the break, the NEX-USA brand manager goes to the toilet, throws up, and goes to his desk to freshen his resume, and to begin calling headhunters.

When the meeting resumes, no one notices his absence. Just before the meeting resumes, the VP of marketing took the VP of communications and VP of sales aside, and proposed they meet next week on how to handle the brand shutdown while liquidating inventory and protecting distributors.

When decisions like that get made, it's hard to keep them secret. Back in Tokyo, someone has a friend who used to work at Sony but now works at Sigma. They meet for beers at an after-hours bar off the Ginza, and after the third beer, the Sony guy tells the Sigma guy the NEX brand is toast.

Next day, there's a meeting at Sigma to decide what to do - is this a break for us, or not. They decide to finish the products about to go into production, but to kill off any further development. "Once those poor bastards on the NEX forum get the word, they'll be desperate to buy what they'll see Sony won't ever deliver" - the same psychology that makes soy milk sell when the real milk is gone before a hurricane hits.

That, fellow forum posters, is how it works in business, from a guy who spent too many hours in those meetings over the decades.

And why bitching about Sony products does not get you the results you claim to want.

Help that brand manager make his wagon move, and you just might get you the fast zoom you want. Bitching about what he sells today may make you feel good. But yelling at your teenage son to clean his room, or telling your daughter she can't get a tattoo is likely to be more successful.
There must be two sides to every story .

I don’t think we are talking about Slamming Sony for doing a lot of good design and product development .

I think it is a lot of Sony loyalty and product investment in Sony , with a normal expectation of Sony offering and making available many of the usability critical features that the competition has delivered for many years now .

IR remote from any direction or radio remote is twenty of thirty years old now .

And Sony has had more than a decade of Alpha system production and has added relatively few lens products for their a900 and a850 models very few primes in the normal focal length range .

I have mentioned the use of bracketing with mirror lock up combined , for years and I don’t see it being offered . There have been many forum threads asking readers what features they would like to see and it seems to be largely ignored By Sony .

So I don’t see this as an issue of the users bashing Sony so much as I see it as the Sony bashing the loyal customers who have invested in Sony products .

I also know Sony will punish us even more and even longer for saying so .

There is this Sony position that nobody can contribute their needs or product possibilities without someone in Sony leadership being offended that it was only one of their Sony customers who thought of the product or feature , and there for , it does not deserve a response or a serious thought .

Maybe I could call it arrogance in the Boardrooms of Sony or in the high up management .

I guess Sony doesn’t see this corporation and customer situation as being a partnership between a powerful corporation and it’s their customers .

The attitude seems to be our way or the front door . Someone will see you out .

I’ve been treated this way at every turn in life , and I am grown up now . I can take it . But it will not continue to be good for Sony when it comes to this either . Attitude can also make the difference that will eventually hurt sales and profits .

I Don’t agree that it is malicious to contribute ideas that could make a corporation more successful and more dependable for the product users

I am only one person with only one viewpoint , So I hope this post has a positive result and not the reverse . We Sony product owners are in a partnership with Sony and we have also invested in Sony with our purchases . We depend on Sony to develop and supply what has become normal technology of our time .

Dusty
 
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Un dbutant wrote:

i personally dont understand why people flock to nex
image quality is not heaven and earth different from mft or samsung nx
I don't think I've seen one person claim that Samsung was better. But if they are close enough for you, that's fine -- buy what you like.
but nex usability is heaven and earth lower than mft and samsung nx
This is subjective and I simply doubt it.
you cant set the upper limit of iso iso in 2011 models?
Typical in Sony models.
you are limited with a super panel of just 6 functions?
Not sure what you mean by this. You can have a custom button or two with a list of features to configure, which helps to not need to dive into the normal menu. The Nex-6 has a function dial.
nex 6 users are frustated to find suitable flash guns?
With a <$25 adapter, you can use a Minolta/Sony Alpha flash. No one should feel frustrated by that.
lenses that need to be heavily corrected by software?
M43 fans were telling us that this was a great thing, a couple of years ago, when their collapsible lens did this and Nex didn't have one. Now it's a bad thing?!
menu that sucks completely?
Only partially.
a camera that cost 600 bucks and you cant attach a flash gun? nex 5 series?
But you can get a larger flash if you want. It just doesn't have a non-standard hot shoe.
hello! are we not in 2013?
i chose samsung nx a much superior cam than nex
although apparently sony sales marketing manager is more superior to that of samsung
I guess you have to believe that to accept that so many people enjoy their Sony cameras. How could they possibly like them, with the superior dynamic range, the fast PDAF, etc.
 
DUSTY LENS wrote:

There must be two sides to every story .

I don’t think we are talking about Slamming Sony for doing a lot of good design and product development .

I think it is a lot of Sony loyalty and product investment in Sony , with a normal expectation of Sony offering and making available many of the usability critical features that the competition has delivered for many years now .
It seems pretty simple to me. If there are "critical" features that you absolutely need, and the competition keeps putting them in their cameras and Sony doesn't put them in there's, why continue to buy Sony cameras? You can just buy another brand. There must be some reason you keep coming back....
IR remote from any direction or radio remote is twenty of thirty years old now .
Only now, I can use my phone to not only trigger by radio, but see a live preview! I don't think I could do that 30 years ago... or 3.
And Sony has had more than a decade of Alpha system production and has added relatively few lens products for their a900 and a850 models very few primes in the normal focal length range .
They don't seem to be able to support the a-mount as well as Canikon can support theirs.
I have mentioned the use of bracketing with mirror lock up combined , for years and I don’t see it being offered . There have been many forum threads asking readers what features they would like to see and it seems to be largely ignored By Sony .

So I don’t see this as an issue of the users bashing Sony so much as I see it as the Sony bashing the loyal customers who have invested in Sony products .
Sony recently updated a couple of cameras to have larger bracketing ranges. It used to be that exposure bracketing could only be done +-0.7, which really isn't enough for HDR. This is probably still the case for most of their cameras, but they're starting to open up a bit.

For a different example, I don't know of any Sony camera that allows you to select the min. or max. ISO selection for Auto ISO. This has just always been the case for them. I'm sure it's been requested, it's in the competitor machines, but they still don't do it. I think they try to err on the side of keeping things simple rather than offer too many options. I wish they had a "wizard mode" that turned on all sorts of crazy options for those of us who might want to tweak everything, and a normal mode so most people wouldn't make a mess of their camera settings.
I also know Sony will punish us even more and even longer for saying so .
I just can't get past wondering, if it's such torture, why put yourself through it?
There is this Sony position that nobody can contribute their needs or product possibilities without someone in Sony leadership being offended that it was only one of their Sony customers who thought of the product or feature , and there for , it does not deserve a response or a serious thought .

Maybe I could call it arrogance in the Boardrooms of Sony or in the high up management .

I guess Sony doesn’t see this corporation and customer situation as being a partnership between a powerful corporation and it’s their customers .

The attitude seems to be our way or the front door . Someone will see you out .
I don't know what their collective thoughts are. Perhaps it's simply arrogance, but as someone who's used Sony cameras for years, it seems to me to be a design philosophy not to make things too complicated, lest someone modify too many settings, get confused, then can't use their camera because they can't figure out what they did to it. You seem to want to assume the worst motive, it seems to me. I'm saying that that's not the only possibility.

In the end, it doesn't matter why -- if they refuse to give you the features that you need, then you vote with your money and buy elsewhere. Yeah, it'd be great if they would listen to you, but ultimately, I think the real influence is whether or not people buy the product.
I’ve been treated this way at every turn in life , and I am grown up now . I can take it . But it will not continue to be good for Sony when it comes to this either . Attitude can also make the difference that will eventually hurt sales and profits .

I Don’t agree that it is malicious to contribute ideas that could make a corporation more successful and more dependable for the product users

I am only one person with only one viewpoint , So I hope this post has a positive result and not the reverse . We Sony product owners are in a partnership with Sony and we have also invested in Sony with our purchases . We depend on Sony to develop and supply what has become normal technology of our time .

Dusty
 
GaryW wrote:
DUSTY LENS wrote:

There must be two sides to every story .

I don’t think we are talking about Slamming Sony for doing a lot of good design and product development .

I think it is a lot of Sony loyalty and product investment in Sony , with a normal expectation of Sony offering and making available many of the usability critical features that the competition has delivered for many years now .
It seems pretty simple to me. If there are "critical" features that you absolutely need, and the competition keeps putting them in their cameras and Sony doesn't put them in there's, why continue to buy Sony cameras? You can just buy another brand. There must be some reason you keep coming back....
GaryW , To get more specific , the drive menu does not allow more than one drive function at a time , I would like to add remote with mirror lockup + any selectable bracket selection so it would be possible to do brackets without touching the Camera until I need to change camera angle or focus .

Basically it seems we should be allowed to mix as many drive options as we wish .

I keep coming back because I own three Alpha mount Cameras including the a900 + lenses .

I do not want to change and start over at this point .
IR remote from any direction or radio remote is twenty of thirty years old now .
Only now, I can use my phone to not only trigger by radio, but see a live preview! I don't think I could do that 30 years ago... or 3.
I do not spend valuable camera money on phone bills . ( no cell phone )
And Sony has had more than a decade of Alpha system production and has added relatively few lens products for their a900 and a850 models very few primes in the normal focal length range .
They don't seem to be able to support the a-mount as well as Canikon can support theirs.
I have mentioned the use of bracketing with mirror lock up combined , for years and I don’t see it being offered . There have been many forum threads asking readers what features they would like to see and it seems to be largely ignored By Sony .

So I don’t see this as an issue of the users bashing Sony so much as I see it as the Sony bashing the loyal customers who have invested in Sony products .
Sony recently updated a couple of cameras to have larger bracketing ranges. It used to be that exposure bracketing could only be done +-0.7, which really isn't enough for HDR. This is probably still the case for most of their cameras, but they're starting to open up a bit.

For a different example, I don't know of any Sony camera that allows you to select the min. or max. ISO selection for Auto ISO. This has just always been the case for them. I'm sure it's been requested, it's in the competitor machines, but they still don't do it. I think they try to err on the side of keeping things simple rather than offer too many options. I wish they had a "wizard mode" that turned on all sorts of crazy options for those of us who might want to tweak everything, and a normal mode so most people wouldn't make a mess of their camera settings.
I also know Sony will punish us even more and even longer for saying so .
I just can't get past wondering, if it's such torture, why put yourself through it?
I just do not want to move into a Canon with a lesser resolving 21 M pixel Sensor .

I just do not want to go with Nikon and I have no idea if either of these Cameras have the Drive selections I like . I also believe all flash should be wireless remote trigger from the Camera and I will not change cameras for that . But it should be there for me if I should need it .
There is this Sony position that nobody can contribute their needs or product possibilities without someone in Sony leadership being offended that it was only one of their Sony customers who thought of the product or feature , and there for , it does not deserve a response or a serious thought .

Maybe I could call it arrogance in the Boardrooms of Sony or in the high up management .

I guess Sony doesn’t see this corporation and customer situation as being a partnership between a powerful corporation and it’s their customers .

The attitude seems to be our way or the front door . Someone will see you out .
I don't know what their collective thoughts are. Perhaps it's simply arrogance, but as someone who's used Sony cameras for years, it seems to me to be a design philosophy not to make things too complicated, lest someone modify too many settings, get confused, then can't use their camera because they can't figure out what they did to it. You seem to want to assume the worst motive, it seems to me. I'm saying that that's not the only possibility.
It is not complicated to allow adding several drive options instead of deleting all previous selections with any new selection as this camera does .

There is nothing complicated in having remote from the rear and from the front of a camera as needed .

There is nothing complicated in having one flash trigger for any number of flash heads and all with auto exposure by pre-flash or TTL control . ( having no wires makes it simple . )

No , I very seldom complain but I thought it best this time .
In the end, it doesn't matter why -- if they refuse to give you the features that you need, then you vote with your money and buy elsewhere. Yeah, it'd be great if they would listen to you, but ultimately, I think the real influence is whether or not people buy the product.
I have voted with my money and these are things we don't expect to be missing , I still do not want to change to a smaller sensor resolution or expend money I do not have to switch camera brands , My mistake . My fault , Guilty on all counts .

One more thing , I am still waiting for a live view FF with no mirror in the light path and one with much higher resolution ( M Pixels ) . better Hi ISO too .

with all the proliferation of NEX models , It seems like FF people are very neglected ( Forgotten ) these days .
I’ve been treated this way at every turn in life , and I am grown up now . I can take it . But it will not continue to be good for Sony when it comes to this either . Attitude can also make the difference that will eventually hurt sales and profits .

I Don’t agree that it is malicious to contribute ideas that could make a corporation more successful and more dependable for the product users

I am only one person with only one viewpoint , So I hope this post has a positive result and not the reverse . We Sony product owners are in a partnership with Sony and we have also invested in Sony with our purchases . We depend on Sony to develop and supply what has become normal technology of our time .

Dusty
--
Gary W.
 
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Like I always say... if folks here spent more time taking pictures instead of crying about equipment... we'd be much better photographers
 
Mel Snyder wrote:
Dennis wrote:
Mel Snyder wrote:

And it's no more effective with persuading a corporation to do what you want it to do. In fact, it's the least likely tactic to get, say, fast zooms.
While I have no proof that online complaints were directly responsible, I believe that they're part of the reaction that drives change. So rather than say "in response to" complaints (because that would be presumptious) I'll say that "after response to" complaints, Sony has taken some actions:

- Addressed complaints about high noise levels in A100 when developing A700 (a Sony rep at Photoplus actually told me this directly, though reps aren't always reliable sources of info)

- Finally put Auto ISO in M mode in A99 & RX1 (hopefully will make it into more models in future)

- Put out a FW update to improve UI in NEX5

- Made additional future mods to subsequent NEX models (more customization)

- Put more traditional Alpha style menu in NEX-6

- Released another pancake lens after the 16

I'm sure there are other examples. After the NEX-5 enjoyed some success, particularly with adapters, they started showing NEX adapted to various legacy gear (including Leica stuff) at trade shows like Photoplus Expo, and commented in an interview that they were surprised by the way in which advanced users were using NEX.

In short, Sony DOES listen. It's unfortunate that they tend to do so much of their listening after the fact, but it's better than not listening at all.

It could be worse ... most photographers just have little interest in Nikon 1 or Canon EOS-M. All the noise over here is because people see so much potential in NEX and are frustrated that it's not far enough along yet to be what everyone wants it to be.

- Dennis
 
Dennis wrote:
Mel Snyder wrote:

Dennis - Sony is a mass marketer. There are cameras they know have a small market, like the RX1. It was a test to see if rich Chinese and other global status seekers in the USA and elsewhere might buy it.
My impression of Sony from products I've looked at and purchased in years past, prior to their takeover of the Maxxum line, was that they tend to produce (high quality) products that qre unique enough in some way from the competition that it makes it difficult to do an apples to oranges comparison. Even in the early Cybershot days (I had an F717) they had that going for them. I think they're rediscovering that right now, particularly with the RX line. I think they tried it with the Alpha SLTs, but selling a system product is a lot different from selling a standalone product.
Why is that relevant? Because the NEX system is not likely to have an E mount full frame camera. If Sony goes full frame, it won't be a NEX form factor.
I admit that I have not been following the FF rumors too well. I don't find SAR reliable in general; they've nailed a few rumors in the past, and tend leak details a few days before an announcement. I don't rule out something with FF and NEX but I don't take it at face value, either.

Consider the VG900. Full frame sensor. E-mount. Uses Alpha lenses via adapter. So already, the existence of APS-C format e-Mount lenses has not precluded Sony from producing a FF e-Mount camera.
The E mount line begins and ends with APS-C cameras - no matter the presence of a clipped-corner video camera that takes E mount lenses. Sony has quite enough lenses for a line that has failed to meet sales aspirations. They're moving on...
I'm not making predictions, but I consider it very possible that Sony would love to consolidate the NEX & Alpha product lines by producing e-mount cameras and relying on adapters to satisfy A mount lens users. This is a tricky proposition, and maybe they can't completely eliminate A mount bodies, but they might reduce the total number of models.

- Dennis

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Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
I think Sony would more likely consolidate around the Alpha mount. It has more non-brand companies making lenses for the Alpha mount for obvious reason: The mount to sensor distance for the Alpha mount resembles that of Canon and Nikon. Sony can subcontract to the independent lens companies, or rebadge them. The optical gymnastics necessary to maintain the NEX mount-to-sensor distance for a FF has little payoff for Sony. We've seen this picture before when Canon left all us FD mount people high and dry and went EOS. If Canon could do it for its big installed base, why shouldn't Sony with its much smaller one.

As the guys from Wordperfect once said in explaining why it took them so long to make Windows-compatible Wordperfect when God created the world in 6 days:

"The difference between God and Wordperfect is that God had no installed base carping at him through the process. That's why he made man and woman last."
 
Fabulous post!
 

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