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Could a new mirror-less sensor provide tracking focus superior to AF-D mode on the A99?

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Old Man River

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Although I have filmed only one soccer competition to date with the A99 in AF-D mode with my silver SAL-70400G, I noted a significantly higher percentage of "tack sharp" images compared to my previous extensive use of the same lens on my A77 in AF-C mode.

Considering the shallower depth of field on the full frame A99 sensor, I find these comparative sports action focus results all the more impressive.

That being said, limiting the discussion to focus modes only, could someone please explain how a future release non-SLT mirror-less FF sensor Alpha mount camera could achieve identical or superior motion tracking results relative to AF-D with the pixels doing double duty in only one focal plane?

Could it be that in the quest to win the DxO image resolution derby, the next generation Alpha mount FF camera might feature improved sensor noise elimination functionality with a concurrent incremental loss of robust focus mode functionality?
 
Solution
phaedin
without descriptions, explanations and specifications, all you have is speculation based on unknown or half baked facts.

so to answer your question.

Yes a new mirror-less sensor could provide tracking focus superior to AF-D mode on the A99.

The real question is "what generation of mirror-less sensor will provide tracking focus superior to AF-D mode on the A99?"

The answer to that is to be determined
Old Man River said:
Old Man River wrote:



Could it be that in the quest to win the DxO image resolution derby, the next generation Alpha mount FF camera might feature improved sensor noise elimination functionality with a concurrent incremental loss of robust focus mode functionality?
Click to expand...
I think that's very possible but I don't think it will be considered the A99 replacement. And I'm sure there will be plenty of doom and gloom rush to judgment posts if this happens. Sony may not know at this point what AF system they will use for the next camera that is considered the replacement for the A99.

But I'm curious as well how good the on sensor AF technology can be and how it develops over the next couple of years.
 
Clayton1985 said:
Clayton1985 wrote:
Clayton1985 said:
Old Man River wrote:

Could it be that in the quest to win the DxO image resolution derby, the next generation Alpha mount FF camera might feature improved sensor noise elimination functionality with a concurrent incremental loss of robust focus mode functionality?
Click to expand...
I think that's very possible but I don't think it will be considered the A99 replacement. And I'm sure there will be plenty of doom and gloom rush to judgment posts if this happens. Sony may not know at this point what AF system they will use for the next camera that is considered the replacement for the A99.

But I'm curious as well how good the on sensor AF technology can be and how it develops over the next couple of years.
Click to expand...
Thank you for validating that I am not entirely out on my own limb with this articulated concern.

The lack of further responses may be a simple function that one a portion of A99 owners have access to the AF-D mode with the short list of supported Zeiss, G, & Sony Alpha-mount lenses.

I wonder if anyone has ever polled this forum to see what percentage of A99 users have actually experienced the exhilaration of shooting moving objects in the AF-D mode?

The prohibitive cost of the camera body may entice many shooter to get by with highly respectable legacy glass, such as Ken Rockwell has recently written. The value of the immediate magical upgrade of existing beloved lenses to Steady Shot IS and the new DMF mode (auto focus immediately allows manual focus with peaking feedback) should not be under-estimated.

But, to reiterate, if the majority of A99 users have not chosen to embrace the new cutting edge AF-D focus mode, SONY engineers and marketing mavens have a real PR problem on their hands.

(For those that care to know, there is a well-executed video about the A99's AF-D mode available on YouTube.)
 
Without nomenclature speculation is futile
 
Old Man River said:
Old Man River wrote:
Old Man River said:
Clayton1985 wrote:
Old Man River said:
Old Man River wrote:

Could it be that in the quest to win the DxO image resolution derby, the next generation Alpha mount FF camera might feature improved sensor noise elimination functionality with a concurrent incremental loss of robust focus mode functionality?
Click to expand...
I think that's very possible but I don't think it will be considered the A99 replacement. And I'm sure there will be plenty of doom and gloom rush to judgment posts if this happens. Sony may not know at this point what AF system they will use for the next camera that is considered the replacement for the A99.

But I'm curious as well how good the on sensor AF technology can be and how it develops over the next couple of years.
Click to expand...
Thank you for validating that I am not entirely out on my own limb with this articulated concern.

The lack of further responses may be a simple function that one a portion of A99 owners have access to the AF-D mode with the short list of supported Zeiss, G, & Sony Alpha-mount lenses.

I wonder if anyone has ever polled this forum to see what percentage of A99 users have actually experienced the exhilaration of shooting moving objects in the AF-D mode?

The prohibitive cost of the camera body may entice many shooter to get by with highly respectable legacy glass, such as Ken Rockwell has recently written. The value of the immediate magical upgrade of existing beloved lenses to Steady Shot IS and the new DMF mode (auto focus immediately allows manual focus with peaking feedback) should not be under-estimated.

But, to reiterate, if the majority of A99 users have not chosen to embrace the new cutting edge AF-D focus mode, SONY engineers and marketing mavens have a real PR problem on their hands.

(For those that care to know, there is a well-executed video about the A99's AF-D mode available on YouTube.)
Click to expand...
I have been singing AF-D wonder since I started using it with 70-400G (silver). My BIF keeper rate is actually higher than my "mighty" Canon 7D. Somehow the camera just "stick" to flying birds and the perfect in-focus images are just so satisfying to look at 100%. I am not 100% sure how the first generation on-sensor AF will perform. That's why I bought extended warranty (and accidental coverage) for another two years.
 
Old Man River said:
Old Man River wrote:

I wonder if anyone has ever polled this forum to see what percentage of A99 users have actually experienced the exhilaration of shooting moving objects in the AF-D mode?
Click to expand...
I have an a99 and a Zeiss 24-70 and Sony 70-300 G lens that both support AF-D, and I use it sometimes, but not most of the time.

It's not some massively "exhilarating" experience. It only follows and locks onto things in about the center third of the frame, so it's not a good way to focus on people's faces in most shots. I use it once in a while, especially on sunny days if I'm shooting at f/8 or f/11 so a sloppy AF that's actually locked onto someone's clothing is probably good enough.

I think people see ads for the a99 with AF-D and Face Tracking and Smile Shutter and all this stuff and imagine that it's going to be some high-tech wonder in the AF arena, but really it's often best to leave that stuff turned off. It actually works most precisely in AF-S (Single Shot AF) when you line-up the square with the person's face, half-press the shutter, then tilt and pan to frame-up the shot you want, hold the camera level, take the shot, then repeat the process for the next shot.

At this point, I don't know if Sony is going to build a full frame AF sensor, or if putting an APS-C sized phase detection array into the a99 was done because they thought this was the end of the line for such things. I'm suspecting that AF-D mode and hybrid focusing with an external phase detection array plus some sensor points was a temporary technology that won't be used in many other cameras.
 
J Birn said:
J Birn wrote:
J Birn said:
Old Man River wrote:

I wonder if anyone has ever polled this forum to see what percentage of A99 users have actually experienced the exhilaration of shooting moving objects in the AF-D mode?
Click to expand...
I have an a99 and a Zeiss 24-70 and Sony 70-300 G lens that both support AF-D, and I use it sometimes, but not most of the time.

It's not some massively "exhilarating" experience. It only follows and locks onto things in about the center third of the frame, so it's not a good way to focus on people's faces in most shots. I use it once in a while, especially on sunny days if I'm shooting at f/8 or f/11 so a sloppy AF that's actually locked onto someone's clothing is probably good enough.

I think people see ads for the a99 with AF-D and Face Tracking and Smile Shutter and all this stuff and imagine that it's going to be some high-tech wonder in the AF arena, but really it's often best to leave that stuff turned off. It actually works most precisely in AF-S (Single Shot AF) when you line-up the square with the person's face, half-press the shutter, then tilt and pan to frame-up the shot you want, hold the camera level, take the shot, then repeat the process for the next shot.

At this point, I don't know if Sony is going to build a full frame AF sensor, or if putting an APS-C sized phase detection array into the a99 was done because they thought this was the end of the line for such things. I'm suspecting that AF-D mode and hybrid focusing with an external phase detection array plus some sensor points was a temporary technology that won't be used in many other cameras.

--
Jeremy Birn
Click to expand...
I agree that AF-D mode is not best suited for people pictures or portraits. I like DMF mode with peaking for that (even better than AF-S).

No. To clarify, I was only touting to the accuracy of AF-D mode for fast moving sports action, like covering a soccer match from the side line with a long lens. That is where it excels, I believe.

I can make do quite well with the centralized dual focus mapping array.
 
Old Man River said:
Old Man River wrote:

Although I have filmed only one soccer competition to date with the A99 in AF-D mode with my silver SAL-70400G, I noted a significantly higher percentage of "tack sharp" images compared to my previous extensive use of the same lens on my A77 in AF-C mode.

Considering the shallower depth of field on the full frame A99 sensor, I find these comparative sports action focus results all the more impressive.
Click to expand...
Using the same lens, the DOF is greater on the A-99 than on the A-77.
 
Ed at Ridersite said:
Ed at Ridersite wrote:
Ed at Ridersite said:
Old Man River wrote:

Although I have filmed only one soccer competition to date with the A99 in AF-D mode with my silver SAL-70400G, I noted a significantly higher percentage of "tack sharp" images compared to my previous extensive use of the same lens on my A77 in AF-C mode.

Considering the shallower depth of field on the full frame A99 sensor, I find these comparative sports action focus results all the more impressive.
Click to expand...
Using the same lens, the DOF is greater on the A-99 than on the A-77.

--
AEH
http://aehass.zenfolio.com/
http://aehass.zenfolio.com/blog
Question: What do you do all week?
Answer: Mon to Fri. Nothing, Sat & Sun I rest!
Click to expand...
With all due respect, I think there is a general consensus that it is the other way around.

At least, my experience, even with the wider angle telephoto SAL-2470Z, appears otherwise.
 
without descriptions, explanations and specifications, all you have is speculation based on unknown or half baked facts.

so to answer your question.

Yes a new mirror-less sensor could provide tracking focus superior to AF-D mode on the A99.

The real question is "what generation of mirror-less sensor will provide tracking focus superior to AF-D mode on the A99?"

The answer to that is to be determined
 
Solution
Old Man River said:
Old Man River wrote:

Although I have filmed only one soccer competition to date with the A99 in AF-D mode with my silver SAL-70400G, I noted a significantly higher percentage of "tack sharp" images compared to my previous extensive use of the same lens on my A77 in AF-C mode.

Considering the shallower depth of field on the full frame A99 sensor, I find these comparative sports action focus results all the more impressive.

That being said, limiting the discussion to focus modes only, could someone please explain how a future release non-SLT mirror-less FF sensor Alpha mount camera could achieve identical or superior motion tracking results relative to AF-D with the pixels doing double duty in only one focal plane?

Could it be that in the quest to win the DxO image resolution derby, the next generation Alpha mount FF camera might feature improved sensor noise elimination functionality with a concurrent incremental loss of robust focus mode functionality?
Click to expand...

I find it interesting as to the future of Sony bodies. The A99 will not be replaced anytime soon, I am sure, but when it eventually is, AF-D will by then be the defacto standard of AF. I can say that with confidence; I go to school down the street from Times Square, and the amount of tourists I see with Sony bodies is nothing short of mind-blowing.

AF-D is wickedly sharp and fast, and I see no reason to leave it behind.

AF-D is not so much influential on the sensor as it is on the AF unit; the lens reports things like position of focus lenses and zoom, and assists the AF module with a little bit of math. Hence why AF-D is not only so accurate, but only available on a certain smattering of lenses (which makes sense considering that there are a few non-Sony lenses that AF-D somehow supports). So the next A-full frame body will leverage a much improved AF module and mirror to deliver impressive results.

However, Sony recently filed a patent for what is essentially a rebirth of the Foveon sensor, so I have no idea what tricks Sony has up its sleeve.

Hah, imagine if they said they were killing the A-Mount (THIS IS NOT A SERIOUS STATEMENT).
 
Thanks for you reply, StayClassy. It would be wonderful if the A99 is not on the fast track for replacement as the "flagship" A mount camera.

I am hoping that the 1.02 firmware update wlll be rolled out soon with clear benefits to A99 owners on a number of levels - including AF-D supported lens additions.

An updated unscientific poll of AF-D focusing mode usage on the A99 suggest that up to 1 out of 5 A99 users do not have access to the short list of Zeiss, G, & SONY lenses that support the "depth mapping" mode.

If you have missed the separately listed poll, please consider seeking it out and responding at your convenience.
 
A mirrorless sensor focusing system might remove back/front focus issues but I see no reason it would improve tracking or even focusing speed--especially over the A99 D-Lens focusing system. Other sensor based systems haven't come close to this goal and for it to happen Sony would need to be making a really major technological breakthrough.
 
dlkeller said:
dlkeller wrote:

A mirrorless sensor focusing system might remove back/front focus issues but I see no reason it would improve tracking or even focusing speed--especially over the A99 D-Lens focusing system. Other sensor based systems haven't come close to this goal and for it to happen Sony would need to be making a really major technological breakthrough.

--
Dave
Click to expand...
It's not intuitively clear to me why removing the beam splitting translucent mirror could aid in resolving back/front focusing issues. Please opine.
 
Old Man River said:
Old Man River wrote:
Old Man River said:
dlkeller wrote:

A mirrorless sensor focusing system might remove back/front focus issues but I see no reason it would improve tracking or even focusing speed--especially over the A99 D-Lens focusing system. Other sensor based systems haven't come close to this goal and for it to happen Sony would need to be making a really major technological breakthrough.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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