I will try to persuade my son to use ..

Hi,

...... my 20 years old Olympus to take photo.

No auto focusing, no TTL flash, no auto wind....
Only a light meter that allows aperture priority shooting...
In a word, a rather primitive camera by modern standard.

It is not because I don't own any modern camera nor
digital camera. I use them all the time.

I want him to start from the basic. I want him to feel the way
focusing is done, how shutter is released , how to control lighting
with flash that has no TTL....I want him to
make mistakes like I did before.

It is a bit hard when I don't use it very much myself...and ask him to
do it...

A rather absurd thinking....I wonder what would be in his mind...

Am I doing the wrong thing...when I can easily buy him a
point and shot camera that takes quite acceptable photo...

Eric T.

Excellent idea - there is far too much photo-work these days without adequate basic knowledge and it it such a waste with the quality of hardware now about. I regret the passing years when I had to also do it the hard way, but it does pay off. I hope he's got patience and the interest to persevere.
Eric

Eric T said:

Hi,

...... my 20 years old Olympus to take photo.

No auto focusing, no TTL flash, no auto wind....
Only a light meter that allows aperture priority shooting...
In a word, a rather primitive camera by modern standard.

It is not because I don't own any modern camera nor
digital camera. I use them all the time.

I want him to start from the basic. I want him to feel the way
focusing is done, how shutter is released , how to control lighting
with flash that has no TTL....I want him to
make mistakes like I did before.

It is a bit hard when I don't use it very much myself...and ask him to
do it...

A rather absurd thinking....I wonder what would be in his mind...

Am I doing the wrong thing...when I can easily buy him a
point and shot camera that takes quite acceptable photo...

Eric T.

Click to expand...

Eric:

I'm sorry but I don't see the point. Nothing in my past experience with film prepared me for shooting digital. Sure I knew about depth of field, f-stops, aperature etc. but that wasn't enough in the digital world. I have hundreds of shots that would have been fine on film but stink on digital because contrast was set wrong, or white balance, or some other factor unique to digital.

The closer to 'right' these extra settings are the better the shot will be and you won't get that sort of experience with film.

rick

Eric T said:

Hi,

...... my 20 years old Olympus to take photo.

No auto focusing, no TTL flash, no auto wind....
Only a light meter that allows aperture priority shooting...
In a word, a rather primitive camera by modern standard.

It is not because I don't own any modern camera nor
digital camera. I use them all the time.

I want him to start from the basic. I want him to feel the way
focusing is done, how shutter is released , how to control lighting
with flash that has no TTL....I want him to
make mistakes like I did before.

It is a bit hard when I don't use it very much myself...and ask him to
do it...

A rather absurd thinking....I wonder what would be in his mind...

Am I doing the wrong thing...when I can easily buy him a
point and shot camera that takes quite acceptable photo...

Eric T.

Click to expand...

Rick -

I think your reply was meant for the originator (Eric T) not me but may I say something on his behalf or with relevance.

I do agree and have said so many times that one should NOT compare directly digital camera work with good old 35mm. They are quite different I heartiy agree - but I think it's right to say that the difference is more technical than 'usage'. Having been writing in to these Forums now for some months it is abundantly clear that a big proportion of the messages and questions are from 'newbies' (a term which frankly I detest but it does seem quickly descriptive). So much is asked about digis that anyone with a certain degree of 'normal' camera use would know. OK, there are many questions asked which are pertinent to digi use and handling but even a lot of those are more answerable if you have the background experience of regular camera work. Let's face it, even digis have Manual settings (although many, even myself, like to set up pure Auto for convenience but (on my 950/990 for instance) in a way that Manual functions are there at the touch of a button. Basically it is a matter of being forced more to master the camera settings of such as good old 35mm, THEN you have a good basic background to enable you to work (simply if you wish) with digital. I know the two are not the same but experience can be a big asset in getting best satisfaction out of digital, since few of the latter seem to be much use in guiding you - even not supplying Manuals of any use in many cases.

Just because the digi is a new bit of hardware doesn't really discount the great help and knowledge that can pass over from 35mm usage. In conclusion, one thing I think which is so greatly different is that viewing in 35mm seems to come as normal for shot-taking but in digi they have just not seemed to have overcome yet the dratted LCD screen failure in bright light so viewing for shooting remains more hazardous. Perhaps that is another argument for getting the experience in 35mm, certainly I have on numerous occasions shot in digital 'by the seat of my pants' as an old expression goes, using at least something of my past experience to frame and take a shot from what has been an extremely poor LCD view. Right or wrong as this one may be, I reckon any sort of new experience in a parallel field is always worth it - something or other will show benefit somewhere.
Eric

Richard Kellaway said:

rick

Eric T said:

Hi,

...... my 20 years old Olympus to take photo.

No auto focusing, no TTL flash, no auto wind....
Only a light meter that allows aperture priority shooting...
In a word, a rather primitive camera by modern standard.

It is not because I don't own any modern camera nor
digital camera. I use them all the time.

I want him to start from the basic. I want him to feel the way
focusing is done, how shutter is released , how to control lighting
with flash that has no TTL....I want him to
make mistakes like I did before.

It is a bit hard when I don't use it very much myself...and ask him to
do it...

A rather absurd thinking....I wonder what would be in his mind...

Am I doing the wrong thing...when I can easily buy him a
point and shot camera that takes quite acceptable photo...

Eric T.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Hi Richard and Eric,

Both of you are probably right.
May be I should just let him decide for himself.
Just that deep in my heart I would want him to experience
something that I think is worthwhile.
or may be not ?

Eric T.

Richard Kellaway said:

rick

Eric T said:

Hi,

...... my 20 years old Olympus to take photo.

No auto focusing, no TTL flash, no auto wind....
Only a light meter that allows aperture priority shooting...
In a word, a rather primitive camera by modern standard.

It is not because I don't own any modern camera nor
digital camera. I use them all the time.

I want him to start from the basic. I want him to feel the way
focusing is done, how shutter is released , how to control lighting
with flash that has no TTL....I want him to
make mistakes like I did before.

It is a bit hard when I don't use it very much myself...and ask him to
do it...

A rather absurd thinking....I wonder what would be in his mind...

Am I doing the wrong thing...when I can easily buy him a
point and shot camera that takes quite acceptable photo...

Eric T.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Eric T
(got it right this time )

How can anyone argue your last statement? By all means, if you think it's worth while then that's the way to go.

Just one last thought on the subject. I learned about computers on a cutting edge (for it's time) CP/M machine in the early '80's. Learned about binary, machine language programming, BDos calls and all the basics. It's given me an excellent understanding of today's machines but would I expect my grandson to go the same route? If I thought he was going to be a computer professional, probably yes.

rick

Eric T said:

Both of you are probably right.
May be I should just let him decide for himself.
Just that deep in my heart I would want him to experience
something that I think is worthwhile.
or may be not ?

Eric T.

Richard Kellaway said:

rick

Eric T said:

Hi,

...... my 20 years old Olympus to take photo.

No auto focusing, no TTL flash, no auto wind....
Only a light meter that allows aperture priority shooting...
In a word, a rather primitive camera by modern standard.

It is not because I don't own any modern camera nor
digital camera. I use them all the time.

I want him to start from the basic. I want him to feel the way
focusing is done, how shutter is released , how to control lighting
with flash that has no TTL....I want him to
make mistakes like I did before.

It is a bit hard when I don't use it very much myself...and ask him to
do it...

A rather absurd thinking....I wonder what would be in his mind...

Am I doing the wrong thing...when I can easily buy him a
point and shot camera that takes quite acceptable photo...

Eric T.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Of course there's the old lead-a-horse-to-water problem, but if he's open to guidance I'd heartily agree with your recommendation.

I started in photography just a year ago with a digital camera. Despite all the automation, and having read a number of good books, getting a decent exposure in non-ideal conditions seemed a black art. (What I didn't understand was the dynamic range limitations of my Oly 2020.) Taking JoeK's advice I bought an inexpensive. all-manual, film SLR, re-read the books and was soon past that hurdle.

I was open to Joe's suggestion because of my training in both music and the visual arts. Even if your only ambition is to be a rock musician, you have to do your scales, learn music theory, and memorize chords. There are no short cuts to mastering a craft. If you can't make an accurate pencil-and-paper sketch or see roughly which amounts of primary colours are needed to produce a given pastel, you're not going to get too far with oils and canvas. Crawl, walk, run in that order.

Even though the Oly 2020 has full manual mode, the presentation was not appropriate; for one thing it works in one-third stops rather than whole stops. For another, my nose was not rubbed in ISO settings! The dinky optical finder is as frustrating for composition as the LCD is useful for weeding out grossly bad shots.

In any case, a manual film SLR is not just a learning tool; it's satisfying and its fun. The 2020 takes away the simple sensual pleasures of turning the focus ring, the aperture ring, the shutter speed knob, and cocking the film advance. Not being an action photographer I don't need to give those things up, so why would I? I could use an IV and pills for nutrition too, but I'd just as soon eat a gourmet meal and savour a craft ale.

Eric T said:

Both of you are probably right.
May be I should just let him decide for himself.
Just that deep in my heart I would want him to experience
something that I think is worthwhile.
or may be not ?

Eric T.

Richard Kellaway said:

rick

Eric T said:

Hi,

...... my 20 years old Olympus to take photo.

No auto focusing, no TTL flash, no auto wind....
Only a light meter that allows aperture priority shooting...
In a word, a rather primitive camera by modern standard.

It is not because I don't own any modern camera nor
digital camera. I use them all the time.

I want him to start from the basic. I want him to feel the way
focusing is done, how shutter is released , how to control lighting
with flash that has no TTL....I want him to
make mistakes like I did before.

It is a bit hard when I don't use it very much myself...and ask him to
do it...

A rather absurd thinking....I wonder what would be in his mind...

Am I doing the wrong thing...when I can easily buy him a
point and shot camera that takes quite acceptable photo...

Eric T.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

That's quite true too, Richard: if taking pictures is just a means to the end of getting a decent snapshot for a person, that's certainly fair enough. In that case the best guidance would be pointing him or her to the point-and-shoot with the best automation (such as the matrix metering on a Nikon). Never having gotten hooked on cars, I own an automatic transmission vehicle and find manual transmissions to be a real nuisance.

On the other hand, there's room for a lot of father-son bonding in reconditioning a thirty-year-old MG sports car or sharing the joys of an all-manual SLR!

Richard Kellaway said:

How can anyone argue your last statement? By all means, if you think
it's worth while then that's the way to go.

Just one last thought on the subject. I learned about computers on a
cutting edge (for it's time) CP/M machine in the early '80's. Learned
about binary, machine language programming, BDos calls and all the
basics. It's given me an excellent understanding of today's machines but
would I expect my grandson to go the same route? If I thought he was
going to be a computer professional, probably yes.

rick

Eric T said:

Both of you are probably right.
May be I should just let him decide for himself.
Just that deep in my heart I would want him to experience
something that I think is worthwhile.
or may be not ?

Eric T.

Richard Kellaway said:

rick

Eric T said:

Hi,

...... my 20 years old Olympus to take photo.

No auto focusing, no TTL flash, no auto wind....
Only a light meter that allows aperture priority shooting...
In a word, a rather primitive camera by modern standard.

It is not because I don't own any modern camera nor
digital camera. I use them all the time.

I want him to start from the basic. I want him to feel the way
focusing is done, how shutter is released , how to control lighting
with flash that has no TTL....I want him to
make mistakes like I did before.

It is a bit hard when I don't use it very much myself...and ask him to
do it...

A rather absurd thinking....I wonder what would be in his mind...

Am I doing the wrong thing...when I can easily buy him a
point and shot camera that takes quite acceptable photo...

Eric T.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

For learning technique...sure. But if you're interested in teaching him the "basics" don't forget to take him to museums and galleries so he learns to develop and eye for beauty and composition.

I'm curious....will you want him to mix his own darkroom chemicals, or will you let him learn Photoshop ?
Valeta

Lucky I dont know jack about photography and I only once touched my dad's 35mm canon camera with everything in auto.

Dale Cotton said:

In any case, a manual film SLR is not just a learning tool; it's
satisfying and its fun. The 2020 takes away the simple sensual pleasures
of turning the focus ring, the aperture ring, the shutter speed knob,
and cocking the film advance. Not being an action photographer I don't
need to give those things up, so why would I? I could use an IV and
pills for nutrition too, but I'd just as soon eat a gourmet meal and
savour a craft ale.

Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly that a full blown analog system that you describe is a great satisfying tool, and my parents had a few cameras when I grew up, that I didn't fully appreciate, but it's only been since I discovered digital photography that I found that I really like photography and can now really appreciate a camera.

Having the luxury of infinitie instant rolls of free digital film with which to shoot, however, is a luxury. Once you go cross the digital divide, it is so hard to think about going back. I never had as much fun with a point and shoot before my S20. Sure, I'll buy a D30 or a D2 or whatever Nikon or Canon make when I have saved up the money. Perhaps I'll buy a Pentax N Digita. Will I consider an F5 or Rebel 2000? Maybe. The main reason for doing that would be nostalgia, the same reason I might buy an original Nintendo Entertainment System today...

Hi:

No one's asked yet what the kid wants.

Glaring omission.

If he wants to be a skilled photography with an intuitive feel for manipulating variables, it may pay off for him to use the old SLR for a time-limited period, say, 6 months, then go to something more advanced (partially automatic, automatic film SLR, etc), then digital.

If Dad wants his son to master photography but son just wants to take pictures, son's not going to be willing to cart around a 20 year old under-featured clunker. I'm sure I'd 'appreciate' my Corsica more if I started out with a Model T, but I am not inclined to do so.

Learning how to use the old camera has educational value IF HE WANTS TO LEARN.

In any case, I wouldn't just hand him an old camera with the understanding this is on some vaguely defined indeterminate basis (i.e.: give a time frame after which he goes to something better) or the attitude 'go figure it out' (if you want him to use something that requires aquiring new skills and knowledge, be there to teach).

Richard.

Hi Eric, I'm 20 years old and I can say you just some things about your problem:

1) A problem I have had with my daddy in my life was exactly this: He has never accepted to let me do the same errors he has done ! This is not right, in the little experiences it's nice to do mistakes that let you grow better and stronger.

2) But... using a old poor Olimpus can be very bad for him... maybe he see you use a modern camera and feel very bad looking his camera...

3) All the question depends on how important is for him photography... maybe he doesn't consider it a lot so there is no need to leard so advanced things... he just need a "point and click"

4) Speak with him ! Explain him the why you wanna let him use a old camera ! Maybe he will agree with you !

Ciao
Simone

Eric T said:

Hi,

...... my 20 years old Olympus to take photo.

No auto focusing, no TTL flash, no auto wind....
Only a light meter that allows aperture priority shooting...
In a word, a rather primitive camera by modern standard.

It is not because I don't own any modern camera nor
digital camera. I use them all the time.

I want him to start from the basic. I want him to feel the way
focusing is done, how shutter is released , how to control lighting
with flash that has no TTL....I want him to
make mistakes like I did before.

It is a bit hard when I don't use it very much myself...and ask him to
do it...

A rather absurd thinking....I wonder what would be in his mind...

Am I doing the wrong thing...when I can easily buy him a
point and shot camera that takes quite acceptable photo...

Eric T.

Click to expand...

Interesting thoughts here on a beautiful day in Florida.

Many good points, not all that I agree with. (Yes I read the whole thread before I respond:> )
Here are some random thoughts.

Why make him use primitive stuff. Did you? Did you use a bellows camera with gunpowder for the flash?

Remember, the cameras of today ARE the primitive cameras of the future......maybe 10 years.

If he needs to learn all about aperatures and focus etc, why not learn about it on the common tools of the day. I find that many people who are used to the old stuff spend an inordinate amount of time griping about how it's done today.

And if you feel that it is invaluable to learn how to use a camera in the manual mode, why not buy him something that is real close to pure manual (Like the Sony D770) rather than one of these cameras that you have to navigate thru menus to simulate manual operation?

But mostly I feel that your camera of 20 years ago was pretty much "state of the art" or "common" at that time. Why should he have to go back further in time than you did? To learn? Well there is a veritabl mountain of stuff to learn about Digicams that didn't even exist in your younger days. It's just learning about different things like Computer enhancement, Internet photography, modern technology, etc.

And I buy in %100 to the idea of talking to him about it. A camera that is not "interesting" in some way to the photographer is a camera that is not used.

I also buy into the trips to art galleries and museums. Here on these forums we spend entirely too mush time talking about the technical aspects when no camera out there can make up for poor lighting or composition.

I applaud the fact that you are at least thinking about this. It shows the kind of parental involvement that is too often missing today. He is a lucky lad.
I gotta go, Too nice to stay indoors. Now which camera to take.........?

Homer

Eric T said:

Hi,

...... my 20 years old Olympus to take photo.

No auto focusing, no TTL flash, no auto wind....
Only a light meter that allows aperture priority shooting...
In a word, a rather primitive camera by modern standard.

It is not because I don't own any modern camera nor
digital camera. I use them all the time.

I want him to start from the basic. I want him to feel the way
focusing is done, how shutter is released , how to control lighting
with flash that has no TTL....I want him to
make mistakes like I did before.

It is a bit hard when I don't use it very much myself...and ask him to
do it...

A rather absurd thinking....I wonder what would be in his mind...

Am I doing the wrong thing...when I can easily buy him a
point and shot camera that takes quite acceptable photo...

Eric T.

Click to expand...

I will try to persuade my son to program in FORTRAN & COBOL, the first languages I used, primitive languages by modern standards...

It is not because I don't know/use the modern programming languages of today... but I want him to make the same mistakes that I did... and MAYBE, just MAYBE, develop a mainframe (read: DINOSAUR) mentality which will give him an edge in todays highly competetive world!!!

Jay M

Eric T said:

Hi,

...... my 20 years old Olympus to take photo.

No auto focusing, no TTL flash, no auto wind....
Only a light meter that allows aperture priority shooting...
In a word, a rather primitive camera by modern standard.

It is not because I don't own any modern camera nor
digital camera. I use them all the time.

I want him to start from the basic. I want him to feel the way
focusing is done, how shutter is released , how to control lighting
with flash that has no TTL....I want him to
make mistakes like I did before.

It is a bit hard when I don't use it very much myself...and ask him to
do it...

A rather absurd thinking....I wonder what would be in his mind...

Am I doing the wrong thing...when I can easily buy him a
point and shot camera that takes quite acceptable photo...

Eric T.

Click to expand...

Hi Eric:

I came to digital via a circuitous 35mm - 4x5 - TLR - 11x14 (!) - 8x10 - 35mm - CP990 - D1 route that took about 20 years. Take it from me, the LCD image on digicams is a lot easier to see than the ground glass image on an 11x14 without a focusing cloth. Brightness issues aside, composing a photograph with a consumer digicam is very similar to the large format experience because you look AT an image rather than THROUGH a viewfinder. A subtle but significant difference in my opinion. I suspect that it is one reason why many people find that they take better pictures with digital cameras than with 35mm cameras.

Brian

Eric said:

Richard Kellaway said:

rick

Eric T said:

Hi,

...... my 20 years old Olympus to take photo.

No auto focusing, no TTL flash, no auto wind....
Only a light meter that allows aperture priority shooting...
In a word, a rather primitive camera by modern standard.

It is not because I don't own any modern camera nor
digital camera. I use them all the time.

I want him to start from the basic. I want him to feel the way
focusing is done, how shutter is released , how to control lighting
with flash that has no TTL....I want him to
make mistakes like I did before.

It is a bit hard when I don't use it very much myself...and ask him to
do it...

A rather absurd thinking....I wonder what would be in his mind...

Am I doing the wrong thing...when I can easily buy him a
point and shot camera that takes quite acceptable photo...

Eric T.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Hi,

That is what I intend to do.
Let the old camera be where it is. Don't even mention to him.
Let himself discover it.

The world has changed so much....
There is plenty to learn with modern camera.

Let where the joy takes him...

Thank you all for the input.
It has been inspiring.

After all, I believe a happy life begins with a happy family.

Eric T.

Richard Lunsford said:

Hi:

No one's asked yet what the kid wants.

Glaring omission.

If he wants to be a skilled photography with an intuitive feel for
manipulating variables, it may pay off for him to use the old SLR
for a time-limited period, say, 6 months, then go to something more
advanced (partially automatic, automatic film SLR, etc), then
digital.

If Dad wants his son to master photography but son just wants to
take pictures, son's not going to be willing to cart around a 20
year old under-featured clunker. I'm sure I'd 'appreciate' my
Corsica more if I started out with a Model T, but I am not inclined
to do so.

Learning how to use the old camera has educational value IF HE
WANTS TO LEARN.

In any case, I wouldn't just hand him an old camera with the
understanding this is on some vaguely defined indeterminate basis
(i.e.: give a time frame after which he goes to something better)
or the attitude 'go figure it out' (if you want him to use
something that requires aquiring new skills and knowledge, be there
to teach).

Richard.

Click to expand...