A thought on shifting from MFT to NEX system

alcelc said:

alcelc wrote:

alcelc said:

007peter wrote:

on DSLR. Mirrorless M43 or NEX are expensive, none of them compete against a DSLR in value/performance. I can pickup a Nikkor 35m/1.8 for just $199, which is sharp wide open and has better bokeh than Panny 25/1.4 that cost nearly $550 here.

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Dear 007peter, it is not only for NEX. In fact all DSLRs' lenses (including FF and APSC) have to be stopped down for their best aperture. That is why most DSLR shooters used to shoot at f/8 onward. Unlike MFT's lenses that their best apertures are usually at their wide open.

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Not true. While lens are "generally" sharper stepping down by 2 stop. Many canon lens are excellent even wide open. I speak from experience after owning over 19+ lens. Here are just some of the one that I owned and I only shoot them wide open. Also most DSLR shoot with their lens wide open to blur out the backdrop for portraits. What is the point of buying a fast lens that required stepping down?

Lens that I personally owned and is sharp even wide open

• Canon 18-55 IS, Canon 35/2, Canon 50/1.8, Canon 60/2.8 macro, Canon 85/1.8, Canon 100/2, Canon 200/2.8, Canon 17-55 f/2.8, Canon 70-200 F4, Canon 70-200 F4 IS, Tamron 28-75, Sigma 19mm f/2.8 DN, Sigma 30mm f/2.8 DN

Lens that I personally own but need to step down by 1-2 stop for decent sharpness

• Canon 28-135, Sigma 18-50 /2.8 macro, Tamron 17-50 non-vc, Tamron 17-50vc, Tamron 28-200 Di

My point is that many of Sony lens (16-50pz, 16 /2.8 pancake, 20/2.8 pancake, 35/1.8) required heavy step down to produce any decent sharpness. Do you find this kind of performance acceptable for a $450 lens?

$450 Sony 35/f1.8 OSS




Anyways, that is why I'm coming back to M43 to buy the Panasonic 20/1.7 instead.

Yes indeed, mirrorless of today is still far out paced by good old SLR in terms of lens delivered ... PERIOD ... especially in term of feature / Performance over Cost.

I would though like to point out , being one who only shoot RAW and do my own development on the computer ( using 3rd party software and its not Adobe which try to normalize everything the same ), all those lens that's mentioned are actually well resolved even wide open, but all of them are perhaps what todays norm would say not sharp wide open. Both Oly's and Sony's Kit zoom as well as that of the 20mm Panny need heavy soft correction to actually deliver a decent image ( mostly its the CA, distortion and less so but still there with vignette ). The Sony 35/1.8 actually need a lot less soft correction but would benefit better with correction on vignette at wide open ( no longer much a problem if you stop down to say f/2.4 ). So the need for post processing I would say really depend on what kind of quality one's seeking. I wouldn't term their need to be heavy but neither would I term them really quality capture that need minimal on development PP. For certain I do not see a need for heavy sharpening, at least not with my RAW workflow and my preference, yours might differ.

The other day in Tokyo, another Emperor's Cup and another perfect record...you're probably right. But my guy is better looking. LOL.

E-PM2

If you weren't happy with a M43 kit lens, what makes you think a NEX kit lens will be any better? If you move to NEX, you will be in the market for more lenses about as quickly as you were with M43.

What you will be doing is going from a system with a wide range of lenses to choose from, to a system with a not so wide range of lenses to choose from. The price won't get any better.

Consider a really good portrait lens:

On M43, your best buy is probably the PL25 1.4, at around USD$550-600. I have the 4/3 version of this lens, and love it.

NEX has a 24 1.8 made by Zeiss, a very good lens. But look at the price: USD$1200. Ouch! Sony makes a few NEX lenses, but they're not cheap, not small, and not quite as sharp as Pana/Leica or the Olympus MZD primes.

In all fairness, Fuji makes some lovely fast primes, very sharp, but they're not cheap.

Just be sure you're not jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

007peter said:

007peter wrote:

007peter said:

alcelc wrote:

007peter said:

007peter wrote:

on DSLR. Mirrorless M43 or NEX are expensive, none of them compete against a DSLR in value/performance. I can pickup a Nikkor 35m/1.8 for just $199, which is sharp wide open and has better bokeh than Panny 25/1.4 that cost nearly $550 here.

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Dear 007peter, it is not only for NEX. In fact all DSLRs' lenses (including FF and APSC) have to be stopped down for their best aperture. That is why most DSLR shooters used to shoot at f/8 onward. Unlike MFT's lenses that their best apertures are usually at their wide open.

Click to expand...

Not true. While lens are "generally" sharper stepping down by 2 stop. Many canon lens are excellent even wide open. I speak from experience after owning over 19+ lens. Here are just some of the one that I owned and I only shoot them wide open. Also most DSLR shoot with their lens wide open to blur out the backdrop for portraits. What is the point of buying a fast lens that required stepping down?

Lens that I personally owned and is sharp even wide open

• Canon 18-55 IS, Canon 35/2, Canon 50/1.8, Canon 60/2.8 macro, Canon 85/1.8, Canon 100/2, Canon 200/2.8, Canon 17-55 f/2.8, Canon 70-200 F4, Canon 70-200 F4 IS, Tamron 28-75, Sigma 19mm f/2.8 DN, Sigma 30mm f/2.8 DN

Lens that I personally own but need to step down by 1-2 stop for decent sharpness

• Canon 28-135, Sigma 18-50 /2.8 macro, Tamron 17-50 non-vc, Tamron 17-50vc, Tamron 28-200 Di

My point is that many of Sony lens (16-50pz, 16 /2.8 pancake, 20/2.8 pancake, 35/1.8) required heavy step down to produce any decent sharpness. Do you find this kind of performance acceptable for a $450 lens?
Anyways, that is why I'm coming back to M43 to buy the Panasonic 20/1.7 instead.

$450 Sony 35/f1.8 OSS

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Get your point.

As I started from Nikon 30 years ago and never using canon, my knowledge on canon products are just from other users' experience, books, magazines and reviews etc. So, you must be in a better position to tell the canon lenses' behavior. BTW, I'm not saying canon lenses can't shoot sharp at their wide open, and just be the same with most other brands, their best are normally at stop down.

Again, no experience on NEX as I tried various model whenever new NEX out, they just couldn't check most of my box. Particularly their TX model gave me a horribly poor experience not long ago, it just keeps me away from SONY products. You have kindly demonstrated how bad it is. Thank you.

alcelc said:

alcelc wrote:

alcelc said:

007peter wrote:
My point is that many of Sony lens (16-50pz, 16 /2.8 pancake, 20/2.8 pancake, 35/1.8) required heavy step down to produce any decent sharpness. Do you find this kind of performance acceptable for a $450 lens?
Anyways, that is why I'm coming back to M43 to buy the Panasonic 20/1.7 instead.

$450 Sony 35/f1.8 OSS

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Get your point.

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@alcelc. When I switch from MFT to NEX, I just "assume" its lens quality is similar to canon, nikons. While some level of "softness" wide open is to be expected, I did not expect sony 35/1.8 to be perform this badly.

Which is a shame because Sony NEX has the best sensor, and the best dynamic range, which is why I switch to NEX in the 1st place. Unfortunately, its lens quality just isn't there yet, and its AF is also slower and prone to error.

A common solution is to avoid nex lens all together and buy the superior canon or nikon prime with adapter on NEX. This way, you match the best lens with the best sensor. However, I lose out on AF, and MF on active children is a nightmare...with or without Peaking MF assist.

This looks like a faulty lens. I am sure not all NEX lenses are faulty. Still, obviously NEX kit lens is not going to replace 2 good primes, so strange topic really. If OP wants a cheaper system, Samsung NX is worth a look.

007peter said:

@alcelc. When I switch from MFT to NEX, I just "assume" its lens quality is similar to canon, nikons. While some level of "softness" wide open is to be expected, I did not expect sony 35/1.8 to be perform this badly.

Which is a shame because Sony NEX has the best sensor, and the best dynamic range, which is why I switch to NEX in the 1st place. Unfortunately, its lens quality just isn't there yet, and its AF is also slower and prone to error.

A common solution is to avoid nex lens all together and buy the superior canon or nikon prime with adapter on NEX. This way, you match the best lens with the best sensor. However, I lose out on AF, and MF on active children is a nightmare...with or without Peaking MF assist.

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Hi Peter,

My E-PM2 sensor does not lag much compared to Sony NEX...also you need to consider *if* you plan to crop close to 4:3rds aspect ratio than MFT actually pulls away compared to 'cropped' Sony. Likewise an uncropped Sony 3:2 should be a bit better than an MFT sensor cropping at 3:2. Basically the sensors are so close in performance that really the winner goes to the image that crops less!

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51529174

Basically take a look at my post here taken at a festival in harsh sunlight. We see some backlit shots, *every* shot involved subject movement, and every shot stressed dynamic range due to both harsh light *and* shadows (i.e. carousel shot). I do not think there is any complaint to shadow detail or dynamic range here...its superb! Also I'm shooting the 45mm 1.8 wide open. It is definitely *better* wide open than Canon primes I've shot on APS-C except for Canon primes on FF sensor. A good copy is very slightly above the level of the 100mm f2 or 85mm 1.8 in wide-open sharpness on APS-C I believe. I think it easily beats any Canon or Nikon 50mm. You might have had a superb copy of the 50mm 1.8 however but IMO a good copy of the Oly 45mm 1.8 should easily beat a good copy of Canikon 50mm 1.8 or 1.4 or 1.2.

007peter said:

007peter wrote:


My point is that many of Sony lens (16-50pz, 16 /2.8 pancake, 20/2.8 pancake, 35/1.8) required heavy step down to produce any decent sharpness. Do you find this kind of performance acceptable for a $450 lens?
Anyways, that is why I'm coming back to M43 to buy the Panasonic 20/1.7 instead.

$450 Sony 35/f1.8 OSS

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This is so true! You often see comments about how the NEX lenses are sharp, but then quickly learn they are really stopping them down. An most NEX lenses will never perform as well as the Olympus 75mm F/1.8 or Leica 35mm F/1.4.

I always tell people to buy lenses they will want to use for a decade. Almost all of the current NEX lenses are the kind you will always think about wanting to replace.

I dont know how flexable you are on size, but the pentax k-01 is on B&H with a 18-55 and 50-200 for $469. There is no better IQ-per-dollar deal on earth right now, and it has peaking as well. The DA50-200 is normally $200, so you are getting an APSC mirrorless with kit lens for $269.

TrapperJohn said:

TrapperJohn wrote:

If you weren't happy with a M43 kit lens, what makes you think a NEX kit lens will be any better? If you move to NEX, you will be in the market for more lenses about as quickly as you were with M43.

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After seeing some images taken by NEX 5N, I blindly theorized Sony's superior sensor produces excellent images even with the kit lenses ( good IQ at low light) . But based on the replies here, I can understand the lenses which I already have now Pany 20mm f 1.7 and Oly 45 mm f 1.8 are more superior than the NEX lenses and what I need is to update my camera body to the one with the latest sensor.

Agree that Fuji's XE-1 is good and alluring. But, again if I can afford to buy that, then I can go for OMD.

Thanks for the input.

Cheers,

Senthil

Hi,

I have the NEX-5N, and I like it a lot. The NEX lenses I've had (16, & the kit zoom) never made me enthusiastic, but the Sony-made Zeiss 1.8/24 sure does - at a cost, as does the Sigma 30 & Sigma 19, both fairly cheap (also available for the E-PL2, by the way). Notice that none of the lenses I have have stabilization, something I do prefer!

I love viewfinders, so I have one on my NEX-5N, as does my wife on hers, but if you're not that interested in that I am sure the E-PM2 would suit you very well. Use the lenses you have and I bet you'll be pleased (technology has move forward since the E-PL2).

I am now a happy Nikon V1 user, and very rarely I'll use my NEX - it's for sale actually. When not shooting with my V1 I use my D600, which, in many ways, is amazing, but a bit heavy to bring everywhere.

Rethinking your needs and wishes I'd say the RX100 would suit your needs very well. Only in very low light it isn't the best around, and I'm impressed by the quality my wife get from hers. She also has an OM-D that she likes a lot (got a lot of very nice lenses for it), but that's just too big for her to use as the everyday camera.

Can't say I've used any Sony-made lenses on my NEX that I really liked, bar the Zeiss, and the original 18-200, which my wife uses on hers.

Good argument for a new Olympus!

TrapperJohn said:

TrapperJohn wrote:

NEX has a 24 1.8 made by Zeiss, a very good lens. But look at the price: USD$1200. Ouch! Sony makes a few NEX lenses, but they're not cheap, not small, and not quite as sharp as Pana/Leica or the Olympus MZD primes.

In all fairness, Fuji makes some lovely fast primes, very sharp, but they're not cheap.

Just be sure you're not jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

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There are a few more good lenses for the NEX, some very costly, and not made by Sony. The Olympus 12 is a frankly superb lens on the wife's OM-D, but it will work on any modern m43 camera ;-)! that and a new m43 camera would suit your needs well ,-)!




The Nikon V1 is also a very nice camera!












--
tord (at) mindless (dot) com
Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Canon & Pentax user/owner

Tord S Eriksson said:

Tord S Eriksson wrote:

Good argument for a new Olympus!

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Yes..that is pretty sure. The choice is either EPM-2 or OMD ( if I get some bonus from my company this quarter).

But, just wondering why no one is talking about any Panasonic bodies. Except the fact that they don't have IBIS, are they not worth at all to consider ?

Tord S Eriksson said:

--
tord (at) mindless (dot) com
Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Canon & Pentax user/owner

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Great. Looked at your gallery. Some great images taken by Nikon's I system camera.

As I read this thread the OP's main problem is that he wants a good zoom lens for those times when he finds his primes unsuitable to his purpose. Let me suggest that you try the Four Thirds ZD14 -54mm lens with an adapter

I apologize if this has already been suggested as I haven't read all the entries to this thread. I did read the one suggesting the 12-60mm which is a great lens but as I understand it does not focus well on the mFT camera, yet....I've used the 14-54 on my G2 and while I may not like the balance I find the focus and results are very good and, in spite of balance issues, I use this combination when I find the primes are not what I want. …. Also the 14-54MM lens can be found used in excellent condition at reasonable (or even really good) prices at several of the usual sites – B&H, KEH and probably some closer to you... Certainly a less expensive solution, but less exciting, than changing systems.

MrFlash said:

MrFlash wrote:

Fuji eats them both for lunch. Better sensor, much better lenses.

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The Fuji costs a lot more, so not in the OP's price range!

Vlad S said:

Vlad S wrote:

This is something that many people do not understand: the interchangeable lens systems usually require multiple lenses to take the full advantage of the system.

For a lot of people the compacts are going to work better, and this web site made a comment specifically about XZ-1, that it is just as good as micro 4/3 if you are only using a kit lens.

Once you decide that the kit zoom is not sufficient for you, any interchangeable lens system will get quite expensive very quickly.

Vlad

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Owning a XZ-1 has showed it to be a competent camera, but noise is present from very very low ISO on. Actually this is the thing that makes the XZ-2 so much better, as it isn't nearly as noisy!

Many love the combo of the Nikon V1/V2, the three most sought after lenses, the 6.7-13, the 18.5, & the 30-110, three extremely competent lenses, which also make up a very small package.

The RX100 together with the V1 + 30-110 is a superb combo, and not that expensive!