Stealing business?

Hello All,

A workmate of mine had his son photographed in a portrait studio and got an album with 9x12 cm prints. He wanted an A3 enlargement made and was told it was US$100. He thought it was way too expensive and suggested to me, since he knew I have a nice camera and a good printer (Canon S9000), that we'd try to take shots of his 9x12 cm photos and see how they would look on a print made by the Canon. Well, we just put the photo 1.5 feet in front of the camera with no particular lighting and fired away using the timer and an AFS 24-85G ED/Micro Nikkor 55/2.8. After some despeckling, USM, levels, we couldn't believe our eyes when saw the final results and I just charged him for the paper and ink. Clearly, the studio would get better results, but what I get from this set up is more than acceptable. I've done it for other people too and they were more than happy. Morally, I feel a bit that I'm stealing other people's business, what do you think?

Cheers,
Anders

Your are correct! You are STEALING BUSINESS and liable for criminal copywrite infringment unless there is a release from the photographer.
--
M. Haner
Bellingham,WA.

Anders said:

an A3 enlargement> US$100. He thought it was way too
expensive > snip> Well, we just put the photo 1.5 feet in front of the
camera with no particular lighting and fired away using the timer> snip>

Click to expand...

Anders Lundgren said:

Morally, I feel a bit that I'm stealing other people's business, what do you > think?

Click to expand...

Yup, you are. Stealing money away from that photographer,and maybe from his wife and kids.You're taking his images, his creations, and making enlargements for people you know, so that they can get what they want without paying the rightful owner what he is asking for as his rightful compensation.

Your conscience is telling you something. You are indeed stealing business from the original studio or photographer. Not much wiggle room here for you Anders....this just isn't right....

--
Happy Shooting!
Derrel

Hi Anders,

Hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you did ask for opinions.
I feel that you have infringed upon the original photographer's business.

The laws on this issue are all over the place, but putting that aside for a moment, and I can only speak for myself here, but as an owner of a portrait studio, my work is my livelihood. If all of my clients did what you and your friend just did, I would go out of business. My clients come to me for a reason, and I am upfront about pricing, so there are no surprises. When they purchase an enlargement, they aren't paying for the cost of the print, that has little to do with it. They are paying me for my time in creating the portrait. Not only that, but you could have potentially damaged future business for the photographer. Like I said, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I myself have a family to support and the other photographer probably does too. I hope you will reconsider before copying another photographer's work.

Bentley Gray
http://www.bentleygray.net

Of course you're right, won't do it again!

Cheers,
Anders

I understand this fully now, I've only done it twice and won't do it again. Although a pro will get better ang longer lasting prints, I guess I was just amazed at the results you can achieve with this gear.

Cheers,
Anders

As usual, I am impressed with the level of courtesy and thoughtfullness that your posts contained.

Very good replies, well written, thoughtfull, and no flames.

That's what this forum is all about!

Hawk

Beat this. I took a studio portrait, many years ago and supplied 10x8 prints to the customer. Several days later the customer returned with a poor photo copy 20x16 and asked my wife to frame it. She declined!
--
gibbsy
http://www.pbase.com/gibbsy

Worse yet is the un-measurable damage that will reflect on the photographers standards by a sub-standard print being out there.

I work hard building my name and reputation.
JHF

Copyright infringement is usually treated as a serious matter in the civil courts and can cost the offender dearly. Doing a favour for a friend is the usual way that this offence is perpetrated. Whilst it is, in a way, a compliment to your capability as a photographer in replicating the original, it is also a reason to ask why your friend didn't come to you in the first place. If the answer is that you don't have the professional equipment or experience to produce such a result, then that is sufficient reason to decline to copy a proof. The professional is putting his livleyhood on the line when he contracts to supply a portrait and I question why your friend did not enquire as to the price of reprints.

A friend of mine, the late Yousuf Karsh, charged US5000.00 for an 8 x 10 print and sitting. Given the years of experience and artistry he put into that session, the price was considered worth it. Imagine the consequences of copying one of his proofs!!

I guess that, out of this, you have learned a valuable lesson and found that the participants in this forum are pretty moral people - which only goes to substantiate the reason they bought an S2. Enjoy your photography as a hobby, if that is its purpose, but bear in mind that others depend on the fruits of their labour to house and clothe a familiy, send their kids to university and then retire into a contented old-age.
I did.
Dave Roberts
http://www.pbase.com/deewun

This topic could have turned nasty real fast.

The maturity, class, and common kindness displayed in this forum are very encouring!!
Thank you for all who post!

;-)
James

Hawk Hardcase said:

As usual, I am impressed with the level of courtesy and
thoughtfullness that your posts contained.

Very good replies, well written, thoughtfull, and no flames.

That's what this forum is all about!

Hawk

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/jamesseif

By now, I know that you fully understand that you were wrong to do that, for the reasons so well-stated above.

I do digital graphics for a photo studio, and every once in a while I have someone approach me with a photo from another studio, asking me to copy it for them. They've been turned down every time, with no tempation on my part.

And if there ever is a temptation, though not likely, all I have to do is remember a trip I made to the local drugstore one day. Standing in front of me in line that day was a girl who had her senior photos taken at our studio. She was wearing a t-shirt featuring a digital collage I had made for her from those photos, and which I nor the studio had given permission to be used in that context. The t-shirt had been professionally made, but the t-shirt company didn't seem to care that they were taking my money. I would not do the same to someone else.
In the words of a man much wiser than I, go and sin no more.

Tim

Forgive my ignorance but do you guys all have a contract signed by the people sitting for a family photo that states you own the work and describes the limitations of use they have with the product you provide?

Professionally I always have a contract signed when working with a photographer and graphic designers that I own the resulting work.

As a consumer I do not remember if I am presented with a contract.

Regards
Jim

PS I think I just noticed a reason why my junk email has gone to about 150 junk emails a day, my whole name and email is in the identity on this forum and I was told several weeks ago that spammers have tools that that plug in all over the web and collect headings on forums to try to get valid addresses, so I'll be changing my identity and my address soon.

Tim Parsley said:

By now, I know that you fully understand that you were wrong to do
that, for the reasons so well-stated above.
I do digital graphics for a photo studio, and every once in a while
I have someone approach me with a photo from another studio, asking
me to copy it for them. They've been turned down every time, with
no tempation on my part.
And if there ever is a temptation, though not likely, all I have to
do is remember a trip I made to the local drugstore one day.
Standing in front of me in line that day was a girl who had her
senior photos taken at our studio. She was wearing a t-shirt
featuring a digital collage I had made for her from those photos,
and which I nor the studio had given permission to be used in that
context. The t-shirt had been professionally made, but the t-shirt
company didn't seem to care that they were taking my money. I
would not do the same to someone else.
In the words of a man much wiser than I, go and sin no more.

Tim

Click to expand...

You are stealing and it's against the law. It's called copywrite infringement and deprives the commercial photographer fair value for his work. I am a little puzzled about the $100 print and that no previous discussions or price sheets were provided.

Anders Lundgren said:

Hello All,

A workmate of mine had his son photographed in a portrait studio
and got an album with 9x12 cm prints. He wanted an A3 enlargement
made and was told it was US$100. He thought it was way too
expensive and suggested to me, since he knew I have a nice camera
and a good printer (Canon S9000), that we'd try to take shots of
his 9x12 cm photos and see how they would look on a print made by
the Canon. Well, we just put the photo 1.5 feet in front of the
camera with no particular lighting and fired away using the timer
and an AFS 24-85G ED/Micro Nikkor 55/2.8. After some despeckling,
USM, levels, we couldn't believe our eyes when saw the final
results and I just charged him for the paper and ink. Clearly, the
studio would get better results, but what I get from this set up is
more than acceptable. I've done it for other people too and they
were more than happy. Morally, I feel a bit that I'm stealing other
people's business, what do you think?

Cheers,
Anders

Click to expand...

Anders

I know you were doing a favor for a friend. I also know that $100.00 is dear. Perhaps next time you should take a $20.00 bill and photograph it , make five copys and try to buy a true copy of the photo. To me its the same thing. How many times my heart gotten me into big trouble. You have good friends here to help with such things. We are lucky men.

Rodger
--
And God said 'let there be light'
he saw it was good

Yes, we have contracts for everyone we shoot. Those making the arrangements for the appointment sign it.
If you were to come to our studio, you would be presented with one.

Tim

Canadian copyright is different than in the USA. Photographers and Illustrators in Canada do not automatically hold copyright of the photographs. In Canada copyright is held by the person who commisions the photograph or illustration unless it is agreed otherwise in advance of the shoot.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/37844.html#rid-37942

Sorry to bust a bubble...in Canada
get it in writing

Ross
http://www.pinkmonkeystudios.com

Thanks all for posting,

I looked at the copyright laws here in Sweden and it's stating that the photographer owns the right to the photo and that the buyer has to ask for permission when reproducing a photo.

However, I discovered that there are many companies offering services like making enlargements, calendars, T-shirts, coffee mugs etc. and they don't give a damn about copyrights. As a buyer of this service, you just send them any photo, no questions asked. In this case, I guess it is assumed that the buyer of the service already has the permission from the photographer? Unfortunately, in reality it's not working like that. Comments anyone?

Cheers,
Anders

Hej Anders -

på svenska:

Svar ja du stjäl jobb -

om det hade handlat om enbart privat bruk så hade det varit ok
men inte när du gör det för pengar -
du har inte tagit bilden alltså är det inte din copyright - så enkelt är det.

Gillar du att nån stjäl från dig och tar både ära o pengar från ditt jobb?

Jag vet att det är svårt att säga nej till polare - men förvånansvärt nog så är det så att till o med nära vänner kanske kan få sig en tankeställare och få en uppfattning om dig som vida överstiger den gamla vanliga om du ställer dig på rätt etisk sida i en fråga som den här.

Jag har så sent som idag snackat med en polare som fått se flera års jobb med ett concept stulet av ett större svenskt företag - och det lär bli en hård nör att knäcka men svinhugg går igen som man säger...

jag tycker du ska börja med att säga till dig själv att du ska ge dig själv litet inre resning och integritet - säg till din polare att han måste acceptera att du inte har lust att sänka dig till något sådant.

Gunnar

Hej Gunnar!

Som jag nämnt ovan, så kommer jag inte att fortsätta med detta. Jag håller själv på med verksamhet, som jag inte vill att nån annnan ska sno.

Vad som jag däremot skrev i inlagan före din, är att jag är förvånad att det finns så många företag som gladeligen gör almanackor, förstoringar, musmattor m.m. av pappersfoton utan att bry sig om var dom kommer ifrån. Hur kan då detta förekomma eftersom det uppenbarligen är olagligt?

Mvh,
Anders