Sergey Borachev
Veteran Member
Sounds promising and your theory makes sense too, Anders.
Is the cable included with the grip?
Is the cable included with the grip?
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I think I might have found the ultimate shutter-shock terminator
- Thread starter Anders W
- Start date
Skeeterbytes
Forum Pro
An additional thought--side-by-side comparisons of the E-M5 and E-P5 will be interesting because 1. E-P5 will be only the second camera wtih the "5-axis" IBIS and 2. it has a brand new shutter that will bring unique mechanics into the fold.
Cheers,
Rick
Cheers,
Rick
Anders W
Forum Pro
No problem at all. Perfectly OK to ask anything (and your questions are by no means dumb).
I am not sure an L-plate would be a good thing here, since supporting the camera on the short side of the L would make the shutter form part of a moment arm, and that's what we are trying to avoid.
Holding the camera in portrait orientation by means of the grip alone is possible but you get tired pretty fast. However, supporting the camera gently on the short side by means of the free (left) hand solves that problem. I have to do further testing before I can say how well this works when it comes to shutter shock, but the inital test I just performed suggests it works reasonably well, perhaps even very well. Will try to post more info on this after I have done some further testing.
Hard to tell since I don't have a HLD-6 to experiment with. In general, I suspect that a right-hand grip improves the resistance to shutter shock compared to holding the camera without such a grip and that one reason why the E-M5 has been the subject of so much attention when it comes to shutter shock is that it does not have a prominent built-in grip like the Panasonic G- and GH-series bodies. My idea here would be that the greater resistance to rotational movement in the vertical direction (pitch) that such a grip affords helps at least somewhat.
Whether it might be still better to hold the camera by the extra battery chamber depends, I suspect, exactly how you can do so. My general idea, as outlined in my OP, is that supporting the camera solely or predominantly from below the body floor (not the lens) minimizes the risk of creating a moment arm and thereby the risk of rotational, as opposed to translational, movement.
You might want to have a look at this post from a prior thread on the shutter-shock problem. The holding technique described as good in that post is one that I have found to work well. Another possibility would be to let the bottom of the battery pack or body rest in your palm or on your knuckles.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51504648
Anders W
Forum Pro
Good to hear.
Yes, the cable is included, at least where I bought it.
Anders W
Forum Pro
Yes, it remains to be seen how that works out. Although I suspect that the shutters we are dealing with here are sufficiently similar to have roughly the same effect. Other circumstances, such as how we find it natural to hold a certain body might well be of greater importance.
Anders W
Forum Pro
The anti-shock pill helps a bit yes, but so far (knock, knock) this seems to be the "real deal". The test shots I have made with the 75/1.8 (quite a few by now) are all with anti-shock off and IBIS on.
I am trying to follow your statements here. Can I ask you some questions to clarify my understanding?
- your basic statement is that the movement and associated momentum and acceleration/deceleration of the focal plane shutter causes a shock that cannot be effectively compensated by IBIS?
- your recommended solution is to use the grip. but then you state that the grip helps compensates against rotational movements. But isn't the shutter movement translational (side to side)? I would think compensation against rotational movement is good, but how does this relate to the side to side movement of the shutter and the resulting shock? Are you talking about compensating rotational movement in the horizontal plane (when the camera is held in landscape mode)?
I have a few more questions, but just want to make sure I understand your basic argument first. Thanks.
- your basic statement is that the movement and associated momentum and acceleration/deceleration of the focal plane shutter causes a shock that cannot be effectively compensated by IBIS?
- your recommended solution is to use the grip. but then you state that the grip helps compensates against rotational movements. But isn't the shutter movement translational (side to side)? I would think compensation against rotational movement is good, but how does this relate to the side to side movement of the shutter and the resulting shock? Are you talking about compensating rotational movement in the horizontal plane (when the camera is held in landscape mode)?
I have a few more questions, but just want to make sure I understand your basic argument first. Thanks.
Zensu11
Senior Member
I'm thinking like a simple minded person but couldn't you just avoid using shutter speeds between 1/60 to 1/125? with the 5 axis IBIS 1/30 and a few slower should be okay or a 1/250 or faster for that matter. I realize I'm not resolving the issue and I would be limiting myself in hand held photography. I'm having a problem wrapping my head around this phenomena and appreciate the links you've provided to help me understand this problem Anders. Maybe it's time for me to do some studying.
Don't tripods and remote releases with shutter shock delay help any? Olympus is obviously aware of this or they wouldn't be putting this feature in their cameras.
Don't tripods and remote releases with shutter shock delay help any? Olympus is obviously aware of this or they wouldn't be putting this feature in their cameras.
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Sergey Borachev
Veteran Member
Good enough for me to try. At this price, if nothing else, it would be good to use for shooting video. Less tiring for long shots. Ordered. Thanks.
Did you have any shutter delay set in the camera in your tests? I assume that won't be necessary now.
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Anders W
Forum Pro
Yes.
Yes.
It is translational but not side to side. On most/all modern cameras, including the E-M5, the shutter blades move up and down rather than sideways. Shutters moving sideways were once common on SLRs but not any longer, one reason being that the max flash sync speed (the max speed at which the shutter is open across the entire frame rather than passes as a more narrow slit) becomes lower if the shutter moves sideways.
The fast vertical translational movement of the shutter within the body will translate (pun intended ;-) ) into a much slower vertical translational movement of the body as a whole if the body is supported from just below the shutter (and nowhere else).
If, however, you instead support from below under the lens (which is the way we are normally told to hold a reasonably large camera with a reasonably large lens mounted), the translational movement of the body is likely to be replaced by a more rotational one. The shutter now forms a moment arm relative to where your support is placed and so the body will move up or down a bit as the shutter moves whereas the tip of the lens will, due to the support from your hand, remain pretty much where it was. Hence, you will have rotational rather than translational movement.
Fire away. I might not be able to provide any more replies tonight. But I'll get back to it as soon as I can.
Sergey Borachev
Veteran Member
Sometimes you can't or do not want to avoid it, if you want to use a particular aperture for optimal sharpness or DOF, with a particular ISO for the best IQ etc.
Anders W
Forum Pro
No I didn't have any anti-shock delay set when I made my test shots. And I kept IBIS on as I normally would.
Good that you ordered. At this very reasonable price it's not much to think about. Can't guarantee that it will help you in the same way that it helps me, but I hope and think it might. Let us know how it works out when you get it.
Sergey Borachev
Veteran Member
Sorry, I missed that. "Anti-shock" is the same as the shutter delay setting. Ignore my question please, Anders.
Will try to provide some feedback comments when it's here.
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knickerhawk
Veteran Member
OK. That makes sense.
Except that now you'll have motion blur from your subjects doubling over with laughter at your contorted camera-holding. ;-)
I haven't paid much attention to the problem until now. (Haven't noticed it much in my shots, but perhaps I'm just overlooking the issue.) I'll try to do some tests with the HLD-6, although it may have to wait a week or two due to other projects. One interesting test will be to compare landscape vs. portrait blur when using the grip. Since the grip-holding and shutter activation motion will be the same in landscape or portrait when using the grip, the only variable left is the support relative to the motion of the shutter. If your initial conclusion from your portrait shots is valid, we should see better results with the grip when the camera is in portrait mode. Correct?
Thanks for sharing your observations on this issue.
exdeejjjaaaa
Veteran Member
Pentax has different IBIS, what is common is that whether IBIS of or on in both systems it is still suspended sensor and any hi freq vibrations will affect it more than w/o such suspension.
indeed because IBIS off still means that IBIS is working and it can't beat shutter shock induced vibrations neither in on nor in off position only you can wait until they die off.... sensor does not become glued to the body if you switch IBIS off in Olympus system
can't say about GX1, did not own it, never had your issues w/ O75/1.8 with GH2 or GH3 @ your shutter speeds
tack-sharp as one can ever hope a hand-held shot to be = I typically delete such shots, you are either pregnant or not.
exdeejjjaaaa
Veteran Member
once again the mere flood of postings about EM5 and shutter shock speaks for itself... any form if IS is an enemy of the ultimate quality... but certainly for as long as you are willing to compromise and accept blur it is OK... I 'd rather not have a shot than have any blur in it, thankfully I do not earn living by taking photos.
Anders W
Forum Pro
Yes you can do that of course (and a few more if you are picky). And that's pretty much what I have been doing so far. But this comes at a cost, especially with certain lenses in certain light situations. For example, if it weren't for the shutter shock, I would be able to shoot with FLs in the 40-100 mm range at 1/100 s (with IBIS on if it's the upper part of that range we are talking about). Furthermore, such a speed is good enough to freeze anything that doesn't move very quickly, e.g., people that are not exactly running around. But due to the shutter shock, I need to go to 1/200 or even 1/250 to be reasonably sure to get something approaching tack sharp. In less than perfect light, that means you have to crank up the ISO although it shouldn't be necessary.
With the pistol grip, fortunately, it does seem I can now get fully satisfactory results even at 1/100 s or thereabout.
1/250 works pretty well with just about any FL as long as you have IBIS on. 1/30, by contrast, while not particularly problematic from a shutter-shock point of view may be too slow with regard to ordinary camera shake once you get to FLs about 100 mm and it may also be too slow to freeze subject movement sufficiently well.
Tripods certainly help although with sufficiently long FLs you'll get blur due to shutter shock with them too, even with anti-shock delay. I have tested this with my 100-300 at 300 mm on a fairly sturdy tripod (Sirui T-1205X with G10 head). Possibly it works better if you increase the weight of the tripod by hanging something on the hook under the center column. I have yet to check whether this makes a difference.
The anti-shock delay takes care of the shock due to the first phase of shutter action (the shutter closing prior to exposure) and may be helpful for those having problem with that. However, at least some of the shutter movements that remain cause blur too and the anti-shock delay won't help in that case.
Yes, I am sure they are aware of the problem and put the feature in for that reason. Regrettably, it is no panacea. The ultimate solution (which is probably not far away) is either an electronic first curtain (where the sensor can be reset more or less instantly prior to exposure without having to close the shutter and the open it for exposure; some recent Canons and Sonys already have this) or a global electronic shutter (so that the mechanical shutter can be omitted altogether). In the meantime, the rolling electronic shutter available on recent Panasonic bodies provides partial help, although the subject has to be fairly static in order to avoid "jello" effects.
Anders W
Forum Pro
Well, it's nothing compared to the style Bob Tullis describes here: ;-)
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51555139
Yes. It would be nice if you did that and let us know what you find. As I have pointed out in other posts, I might well have overlooked this issue too unless it had given me some obvious problem early on. While I managed to solve those problems pretty quickly, I had already started looking and ... didn't quite like what I saw although it took the form of subtle rather than manifest blur.
Not so sure about that. If you hold by the right-hand grip alone, I'd guess the results for portrait versus landscape should be pretty much the same. If you are supporting from underneath the body, landscape should be preferable since in that case your hand is underneath the shutter blades as they move up and down. In portrait mode, when you are supporting the camera on its short side, that's no longer the case.
You are welcome!
Sergey Borachev
Veteran Member
Just wondering. Would setting anti-shock even when using this grip be even better?
Anders W
Forum Pro
In theory yes. However, I have no evidence at all of shutter shock when I place the camera on a perfectly solid ground (the tiled floor with concrete underneath in my kitchen for example). This prevents the camera from moving but not from vibrating. Nevertheless, there is no sign of blur even with my 100-300 at 300 mm (where I get blur if shooting from a tripod).
No, the sensor does not become glued to the body if you switch IBIS off. But there is no evidence that vibrations due to shutter shock causes IBIS to misbehave, whether on or off.
That is probably because you didn't look for it carefully enough. Plenty of evidence of shutter shock as you are already aware from links I have already given with you with all the bodies you mention.
Blur is different from pregnancy in a number of ways, one of them being that the former is not a dichotomy. ;-)
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