why not f/1.2 by Sony?

franzel wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:.

So, f/1.2 on 1.5x puts the same total amount of light on the sensor for a given shutter speed as f/1.8 on FF, which will result in the same noise for equally efficient sensors.
Sorry, that's not true .
It is.
The amount of light is not measured across the entire sensor surface, that's not how sensivity measurement works .
I'm not talking about "sensitivity" -- I'm talking about the total amount of light falling on the sensor.
Any object of a certain brightness will always create the same exposure with a certain ISO/f-stop/shutter speed combination, on sensors of any size or quality - unless someone lies about the specs ;) .
Correct. But I'm not talking about brightness -- I'm talking about the total amount of light falling on the sensor.
Resulting image quality, noise, resolution, enlargment, that is a very different matter, but that discussion is not about ISO or aperture .
Those are related to a degree, but not part of any reasonable comparison chart .
They are related in that, for equally efficient sensors, the same total amount of light falling on the sensor results in the same image noise.

The reason larger sensor systems are less noisy than smaller sensor systems is because more light falls on the sensor for a given exposure.

So, the recap: the same aperture diameter results in the same DOF for a given framing and perspective (e.g 50mm / 1.8 = 33mm / 1.2 = 28mm). It also results in the same total amount of light falling on the sensor for a given shutter speed, which results in the same noise for equally efficient sensors.

The role of ISO in all this is simply to adjust the brightness of the LCD playback and OOC jpg to the desired level.
 
If I ever needed a lens faster than the Sony/Zeiss 24/1.8, I'd get a Voigtlander and not wait for Sony to produce want I needed. A Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.1 Leica M Mount Lens cost $999 at Amazon! That's cheaper than the Sony/Zeiss 24/1.8. But, of course, the Voightlander is manual focus. If you really want a 35 or 85mm at f/1.4 AF from Sony, you'll be waiting a long time.
 
tomtom50 wrote:
GaryW wrote:
My concern is what tomtom50 posted about - past about f2, it just won't make much difference, at least for light-gathering power, on APS-C sensors. I guess that leaves DOF, or is that reduced as well? If an f1.2 lens does no better than a f1.8 lens, I'd rather pay less for the 1.8.
Having said that, how does f1.2 work on the Nikon1 if it doesn't work on APS-C? (Tomtom?)
 
tomtom50 wrote:

The Sony 35mm f1.4 lens works pretty well on the a900 (T1.6) and not so well on the a380 (T2.2).
!!!
As for DOF, the same problem applies. The more angled rays that are lost come from the outside of the lens, so not only do you get less light you get deeper DOF. Oh well.
!!!
Sony seems perfectly happy to sell 35mm f1.4 lenses to a380n owners without warning them.
I especially enjoy this one!
Focus reducers are also concentrating light onto a smaller area, which should (theoretically at least) result in faster shutter speeds than would be achieved on FF.
Well, this one at least looks like an honest misunderstanding, not a blatant misunderstanding…

I’m afraid you need to get your knowledge of basic physics of photography up a little bit. What I would agree with is that the whole subject of comparing different form-factors it too obfuscated; too many people talk about things they do not have any clue about.

It helps if one thinks in correct terms:
  • What part of the subject plane is captured;
  • number of captured photons per an image of some area on the subject;
  • Diffraction circle mapped back to the subject plane;
  • Circle of confusion mapped back to the subject plane(s);
  • (Averaged) readout noise of photocells per an image of some area on the subject, in electrons
  • ;
  • Full well capacity of photocells per an image of some area on the subject, in electrons;
  • QE: fraction of photons converted to electrons.
[*] Well, another useful measure of noise is electrons/√Hz; but this affects only the technological part: how many ADC do you need.

When you take all this into account, it turns out that everything but the full-well is absolutely trivial: there are only two relevant pieces of data: angle of view, and entry pupil (forgetting for a moment about the lens transparency!). This means that if you compare 8×10in film with a ⅔" sensor, if your lenses have similar optical quality [**], and the same angle of view and entry pupil, you can get identical images if your sensors are of similar quality [***] and the full wells do not matter.

[**] One should keep in mind that it is progressively harder and harder to make a lens with given optical quality, given angle of view, and given entry pupil when the focal length goes down. And: at some moment the Abbe's sine law will strike back, and this will not be physically possible.

[***] My back-of-envelop calculations show that it is not possible to match 8×10in film by a ⅔" sensor (about ¹⁄₂₇ difference in linear size). With QE=1, digital would match the best film at about ¹⁄₁₆ difference of formfactor. And AFAIK, current QE of digital cameras (considered as systems) is about 0.12 nowadays. So today it is ⅙ difference in formfactor: digital-APC ≈ MF-film. [And what am I talking about here? Essentially, it was the discussion of the effective-QE of film; in my estimates, it is about ¹⁄₂₅₆. But this topic is completely orthogonal to the discussion of digital-to-digital comparison.]

And since full-well is determined by technology, not by physics, it is natural to expect that this should not matter — at least when one compares bodies of different generations.
 
Last edited:
ilza wrote:
tomtom50 wrote:

The Sony 35mm f1.4 lens works pretty well on the a900 (T1.6) and not so well on the a380 (T2.2).
!!!
As for DOF, the same problem applies. The more angled rays that are lost come from the outside of the lens, so not only do you get less light you get deeper DOF. Oh well.
!!!
Sony seems perfectly happy to sell 35mm f1.4 lenses to a380n owners without warning them.
Have you read F stop blues at Dxomark?


Very worthwhile when considering the usefulness of fast lenses on a digital camera.
 
ilza wrote:
I’m afraid you need to get your knowledge of basic physics of photography up a little bit. What I would agree with is that the whole subject of comparing different form-factors it too obfuscated; too many people talk about things they do not have any clue about.
It helps if one thinks in correct terms:
Yes. It is important to realize when matching a lens to a digital sensor that the optics do not end at the lens.

Unlike film digital sensors have their own optical systems, including lenses. The photons need to follow a path through the sensor, past wires (DSLR sensors are not BSI) before they can be counted at the photodiode, and that path is sensitive to angle of incidence, more on some sensors that on others. Quantum efficiency is not a single number; it is dependent of the angle the light strikes the sensor/microlens system.

Dxomark rates T stops for tested lenses, and their transmission testing includes the sensor. That is why Dxomark reports different full-open T stops for the same lens.

Look up the Sony 36mm f1.4 and check the empirically obtained T stop for various cameras. You will find significant variation.
 
Have you read F stop blues at Dxomark?
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Insights/F-stop-blues

Very worthwhile when considering the usefulness of fast lenses on a digital camera.
It is interesting, but their choice of using T-word where F-word is due is abysmal. When T-number is mentioned, one assumes that the light loss is discussed (as opposed to the angle of incoming cone of light hitting a point on a sensor). T-number affects the exposure, F-number affects also the diffraction and the circle of confusion due to misfocus.

While what they measure (I assume it is the photon noise) may be, technically speaking, the T-number, the observed difference between the cameras cannot be attributed to difference in light transmission in the lens. My immediate conjecture is that what they observe is due to vignetting in the microlenses; then this would affect the diffraction circle and the circle of confusion in a similar way to a mechanical limiter of the aperture ring.

(Well, the difference with mechanical limiter is that the bokeh must be significantly improved with such vignetting… :-))
 
Last edited:
The photons need to follow a path through the sensor, past wires (DSLR sensors are not BSI) before they can be counted at the photodiode, and that path is sensitive to angle of incidence, more on some sensors that on others. Quantum efficiency is not a single number; it is dependent of the angle the light strikes the sensor/microlens system.
Shadows of the wires will be longer with oblique illumination indeed. But since wires (as visible from the sensels) form a rectangular skyscraper landscape, would not this rectangularity be visible on the shape of bokeh? (When everything settles down, bokeh is, AFAIU, only “the shadow of the entry pupil” on the sensor. So everything which effectively affects the entry pupil should be visible on bokeh)

Until this relation with bokeh is clarified, I like my microlenses conjecture better.
 
ilza wrote:
The photons need to follow a path through the sensor, past wires (DSLR sensors are not BSI) before they can be counted at the photodiode, and that path is sensitive to angle of incidence, more on some sensors that on others. Quantum efficiency is not a single number; it is dependent of the angle the light strikes the sensor/microlens system.
Shadows of the wires will be longer with oblique illumination indeed. But since wires (as visible from the sensels) form a rectangular skyscraper landscape, would not this rectangularity be visible on the shape of bokeh? (When everything settles down, bokeh is, AFAIU, only “the shadow of the entry pupil” on the sensor. So everything which effectively affects the entry pupil should be visible on bokeh)

Until this relation with bokeh is clarified, I like my microlenses conjecture better.
I think Tomtom simply meant the circuitry (wires) in the sensor itself would block light if the angle of the light is too oblique. This has nothing to do with the subject matter. As for bokeh, as was mentioned before, if this effect of blocking steep angles is consistent, then it will affect bokeh. Microlenses could help mitigate the effect if they were offset. This might make things worse for long tele lenses, I would think.

Maybe if they make larger sensors with backside illumination (as mentioned earlier), it will help with wider apertures. I think they'll do that eventually, but there's probably not a strong need for it, particularly with consumers not understanding the need -- or rather, few consumers that even would see benefit. (Probably about .01% of Nex users. ;-) ) Maybe Fuji fans can convince Fuji to go BSI.
 
ilza wrote:
Have you read F stop blues at Dxomark?
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Insights/F-stop-blues

Very worthwhile when considering the usefulness of fast lenses on a digital camera.
It is interesting, but their choice of using T-word where F-word is due is abysmal.
T is transmission, f is a ratio. They are measuring transmission. Since their measurement includes transmission loss in the sensor optics they could have chosen a new term, but between T and f they chose the better.
When T-number is mentioned, one assumes that the light loss is discussed (as opposed to the angle of incoming cone of light hitting a point on a sensor). T-number affects the exposure, F-number affects also the diffraction and the circle of confusion due to misfocus.
The light is being lost, at the sensor rather than the lens. T is traditionally used because it is more accurate for exposure. The Dxomark use carries on that tradition adding a new source of transmission loss that did not exist at the time T was developed.
While what they measure (I assume it is the photon noise) may be, technically speaking, the T-number, the observed difference between the cameras cannot be attributed to difference in light transmission in the lens. My immediate conjecture is that what they observe is due to vignetting in the microlenses; then this would affect the diffraction circle and the circle of confusion in a similar way to a mechanical limiter of the aperture ring.
Dxomark Uses the sesnsor as the measurement device. They have found some cameras hide transmission loss at wide apertures by boosting ISO surreptitiously. I think they do use noise levels to detecting the ISO spoofing; I don't recall. We can observe the phenomenon by mounting legacy lenses with an adapter. Then the camera does not know the nominal aperture and cannot spoof ISO and exposure can be assessed.
(Well, the difference with mechanical limiter is that the bokeh must be significantly improved with such vignetting… :-))
 
forpetessake wrote:
That makes sense, especially since the future sensors will be FF.
I could not agree less! The future of image format for photography is smaller, not larger. Photography format has been shrinking since its inception. We've gone from large format to medium format to small format (35mm) to digital aps-c. Where now 35mm is being thought of as the "bigger and better" alternative to aps-c when 35mm is small format!

Aps-c is quickly becoming the "bigger and better" alternative to P&S cameras even though most that take pictures are now using the extremely popular iphone camera.
 
ilza wrote:
The photons need to follow a path through the sensor, past wires (DSLR sensors are not BSI) before they can be counted at the photodiode, and that path is sensitive to angle of incidence, more on some sensors that on others. Quantum efficiency is not a single number; it is dependent of the angle the light strikes the sensor/microlens system.
Shadows of the wires will be longer with oblique illumination indeed. But since wires (as visible from the sensels) form a rectangular skyscraper landscape, would not this rectangularity be visible on the shape of bokeh? (When everything settles down, bokeh is, AFAIU, only “the shadow of the entry pupil” on the sensor. So everything which effectively affects the entry pupil should be visible on bokeh)

Until this relation with bokeh is clarified, I like my microlenses conjecture better.
Yep, it's been explained elsewhere that the effect on t-stop is due to heavy vignetting (compensated in software). Vignetting is both natural effect of the large aperture lens as well as microlens design. It's not pronounced in the old sensors without microlenses, nor in the new designs with shifted microlenses.

Since we are discussing Sony NEX design here, there are test pictures that show that there isn't a heavy vignetting even at f/0.85, much less at f/1.2:

duel+crops+top+left.jpg
 
forpetessake wrote:
stan_pustylnik wrote:

Why doesn't Sony use smaller sensor surface advantage from NEX system to build f/1.2 35mm lens, and 85mm f/1.4?
There aren't technical difficulties making those lenses, they already exist in FF equivalent, except the E-mount bodies, they are too small, weak, and uncomfortable for large lenses. The 85mm/1.4 would be heavy (likely about 1.5lb) for small NEX cameras. Rumors say that Sony is heading with larger mirrorless designs using A-mount. That makes sense, especially since the future sensors will be FF.
A 35mm/1.2 lens would be no problem on any NEX body. I personally think an 85/1.4 lens would also be fine on the NEX6 or 7. Much longer than that and it might be beneficial for Sony to make a slightly larger NEX body for the high end. But this would be for ergonomics, not strength. The E-mount itself is as mechanically strong as any on the market.

Bart
 
forpetessake wrote:
ilza wrote:
The photons need to follow a path through the sensor, past wires (DSLR sensors are not BSI) before they can be counted at the photodiode, and that path is sensitive to angle of incidence, more on some sensors that on others. Quantum efficiency is not a single number; it is dependent of the angle the light strikes the sensor/microlens system.
Shadows of the wires will be longer with oblique illumination indeed. But since wires (as visible from the sensels) form a rectangular skyscraper landscape, would not this rectangularity be visible on the shape of bokeh? (When everything settles down, bokeh is, AFAIU, only “the shadow of the entry pupil” on the sensor. So everything which effectively affects the entry pupil should be visible on bokeh)

Until this relation with bokeh is clarified, I like my microlenses conjecture better.
Yep, it's been explained elsewhere that the effect on t-stop is due to heavy vignetting (compensated in software). Vignetting is both natural effect of the large aperture lens as well as microlens design. It's not pronounced in the old sensors without microlenses, nor in the new designs with shifted microlenses.

Since we are discussing Sony NEX design here, there are test pictures that show that there isn't a heavy vignetting even at f/0.85, much less at f/1.2:

duel+crops+top+left.jpg
Your picture does not quite answer the question. Loss of oblique rays on the way to the photodiode is not limited to the corners of the frame.

A test can be made pretty simply:

- Mount the 50mm f1.2 with a dumb adapter so lens information is not transferred to the camera (ISO spoofing defeated)

- Take 'equivalent exposures at 1/3 stop from f2.8 to full open at the same st ISO (for example f2.8@1/30, f2.5@1/40, f2.2@1/50, f2@1/60 all the way to wide open.

- The exposure in the center will drop as you get wider.

- Take a few underexposed shots at f2.8 (1/40, 1/50, 1/60). These can be used to benchmark just how ineffective the wide aperture was.

- Once determining that you f1.4 acts more like an f1.8 (or whatever), see if f1.4 actually gives much more bokeh than f1.8.

I will do this myself when I get my Nikon adapter, but i have the 16MP sensor which is less problematic than the sensor in the NEX 7
 
I wrote:

Shadows of the wires will be longer with oblique illumination indeed. But since wires (as visible from the sensels) form a rectangular skyscraper landscape, would not this rectangularity be visible on the shape of bokeh? (When everything settles down, bokeh is, AFAIU, only “the shadow of the entry pupil” on the sensor. So everything which effectively affects the entry pupil should be visible on bokeh)

Until this relation with bokeh is clarified, I like my microlenses conjecture better.
Thinking more about this, I get completely lost!

Different wavelenghts penetrate on different depth (in doped silicon; see, e.g., the original Foveon's X3 papers on the graphs; IIRC, it is 0.1µm–3µm). So the shadows (no matter of what: of wires, or of edges of microlenses) are going to have different areas depending on the depth, so depending on the wavelength.

So the shape of the bokeh should be significantly different for R, G and B. Is it observed? Likewise for ISO boost at wide apertures…
 
ilza wrote:
I wrote:

Shadows of the wires will be longer with oblique illumination indeed. But since wires (as visible from the sensels) form a rectangular skyscraper landscape, would not this rectangularity be visible on the shape of bokeh? (When everything settles down, bokeh is, AFAIU, only “the shadow of the entry pupil” on the sensor. So everything which effectively affects the entry pupil should be visible on bokeh)

Until this relation with bokeh is clarified, I like my microlenses conjecture better.
Thinking more about this, I get completely lost!

Different wavelenghts penetrate on different depth (in doped silicon; see, e.g., the original Foveon's X3 papers on the graphs; IIRC, it is 0.1µm–3µm). So the shadows (no matter of what: of wires, or of edges of microlenses) are going to have different areas depending on the depth, so depending on the wavelength.

So the shape of the bokeh should be significantly different for R, G and B. Is it observed? Likewise for ISO boost at wide apertures…
People see color shifts and additional vignetting in the corners when using symmetrical wide angle lenses (like Voigtlander lenses made for Leica) that have shallow angles towards the corners. This is worse with the 24MP NEX 7 than the 16MP 5n.

I have not heard of this with wide aperture lenses, which act more as if they are simply stopped down a bit.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top