S602 better detail at 3mp or 6mp?

Doug,

I wonder if we can reach some degree of consensus to wrap this up, would you agree with these (facts?)...
  • The SuperCCD captures 3MP of raw image data.
  • The SuperCCD optimizes V/H resolution at the expense of diagonal
resolution.
  • Resolution is one of many aspects of image quality.
  • The SuperCCD's V/H res is on par with 4MP cameras for lines oriented
within ~ 5 degrees of pure V/H. Res of lines oriented between 6 and
84 degrees is equal to or slightly lower than conventional 3MP CCDs.
  • No firm evidence has been offered to support, or dismiss, the wisdom
of the resolution tradeoff. Fuji offers a hypothosis.
  • No one knows whether greater human sensitivity to one axis would
warrant boosting weak axis performance, or strengthening favored
axis performance, in order to maximize human enjoyment of the image.
Or, if it matters at all.
  • No other CCD manufacture implements Fuji's approach.
?
Pete,

For a given number of photosites (assuming the same dynamic range)
the rotated array doesn't gather ANY more information.

But, using a rectangular array, the maximum resolution is different
in different directions, and rotating the array changes how those
are deployed. Whether that is advantageous to the human perception
of the final image (under what circumstanmces, for what kind of
subject matter) is another matter altogether (out of which I am
basically staying!).

Doug Kerr
 
The quality ladder is as follows (starting with the best:
6M high(TIFF)
The only problem here, is that it takes so darned long to write the image to the memory card. I recenty timed it and it took about 45 seconds, vs. 10 seconds.

--
Gordy - Reading, MA - USA
PrintShop 7.01
Fuji FinePix 6900Z
NAPP Member
http://www.pbase.com/gordy/
 
Doug,

That may very well be true but it still doesn't negate the fact that MP ratings are determined by the number of photosites in the CCD and then given an effective range.
Pete,

For a given number of photosites (assuming the same dynamic range)
the rotated array doesn't gather ANY more information.

But, using a rectangular array, the maximum resolution is different
in different directions, and rotating the array changes how those
are deployed. Whether that is advantageous to the human perception
of the final image (under what circumstanmces, for what kind of
subject matter) is another matter altogether (out of which I am
basically staying!).

Doug Kerr
--

'He who works his land will have abundant food, but he who chases fantasies will have his fill of poverty.' -- King Solomon
 
SG,

Thanks for your analysis.

See embedded my thoughts on each one of your points:
Doug,

I wonder if we can reach some degree of consensus to wrap this up,
would you agree with these (facts?)...
  • The SuperCCD captures 3MP of raw image data.
Agree
  • The SuperCCD optimizes V/H resolution at the expense of diagonal
resolution
.

Agree - I believe that this is the real "pony in there", the centerpiece of all the palaver.
  • Resolution is one of many aspects of image quality.
Agree - and furethermore, there are many ways to describe resolution.
  • The SuperCCD's V/H res is on par with 4MP cameras for lines oriented
within ~ 5 degrees of pure V/H.
On a "simplistic, theoretical" basis, it would be greater. Note that from a pixel pitch basis only, for a consistent aspect ratio (ratio of V vs H pixel count), the resolution of a 4 MP camera (and to be precise I mean with 4,000,000 pixels) should be 1.15 times that of a 3 MP camera (defined in the same way). (That ratio is the square root of 4/3.)

The advantage (on that same simplistic theoretical basis) of rotating the array, with respect to V and H resolution, should 1.41 (square root of 2).

It is interesting to pause here to reflect on whether one might want to spend x hundred bucks more for a 4 MP camera to get a 15% increase in resolution. A lot of people seem to think that they would get 33.3% increase. I chose not to. (I had started the quest that led me to my S602 by thinking of the Nikon 5700.)
Res of lines oriented between 6 and
84 degrees is equal to or slightly lower than conventional 3MP CCDs.
Not quite. On a simplistic theoretical basis (and discounting the effect of the Kell factor, which I don't know how to work into this model), I think that maybe the resolution would decrease smoothly over the range from 0 degrees (horizontal) to 45 degrees from horizontal, maybe as the cosine of the angle above horizontal or something similar - not jump down as we got a little above horizontal.

However, at 45 degrees, this theoretical resolution would be 0.707 of the resolution at horizontal. This would in fact, as you suggest, be the same as the horizontal or vertical resolution of a non-rotated 3 MP sensor.
  • No firm evidence has been offered to support, or dismiss, the wisdom
of the resolution tradeoff. Fuji offers a hypothosis.
I haven't seen a clear convincing argument for the "value" of it perceptually ( But I have hardly read, or personally evaluated, all that has been published in this area - not even Fuji's seminal White Paper). I have seen a useful argument for it "politically". (Please note that I do not say that at all pejoratively.)
  • No one knows whether greater human sensitivity to one axis would
warrant boosting weak axis performance, or strengthening favored
axis performance, in order to maximize human enjoyment of the image.
That's a pretty broad statement. They may well have been done a lot of research on this issue which could support the notion that, in some particular way of assessing the result, the rotated sensor would maximize human enjoyment. I certainly haven't done any work in that field myself, nor read much of the literature.
Or, if it matters at all.
My uneducated guess is that it really deosn't much! I do know if we had all billed clients at our regular professional rates for the time we have spent in this forum on the topic, we could all buy a couple of 19 MP cameras!
  • No other CCD manufacture implements Fuji's approach.
I have no idea, even over the world of digital still cameras.

Thanks for your work on gathering up what has been said heer.

Best regards,

Doug
 
Hi,

I made some internet research to find some info on the photoreceptor arrays on the retina. here is what i found:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~praymond/research

http://www.homepages.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgajec
(the most relevant is the article "spatial regularity among retinal neurons",
Fig. 3 and 4, Chapter 3) D=dorsal "up"; V=ventral "down" on fig 3.

Overall, although in biology things are never as clear as in engineering the rotated raster seems to be closer to the reality.

gyorgy
I wonder if we can reach some degree of consensus to wrap this up,
would you agree with these (facts?)...
  • The SuperCCD captures 3MP of raw image data.
  • The SuperCCD optimizes V/H resolution at the expense of diagonal
resolution.
  • Resolution is one of many aspects of image quality.
  • The SuperCCD's V/H res is on par with 4MP cameras for lines oriented
within ~ 5 degrees of pure V/H. Res of lines oriented between 6 and
84 degrees is equal to or slightly lower than conventional 3MP CCDs.
  • No firm evidence has been offered to support, or dismiss, the wisdom
of the resolution tradeoff. Fuji offers a hypothosis.
  • No one knows whether greater human sensitivity to one axis would
warrant boosting weak axis performance, or strengthening favored
axis performance, in order to maximize human enjoyment of the image.
Or, if it matters at all.
  • No other CCD manufacture implements Fuji's approach.
?
Pete,

For a given number of photosites (assuming the same dynamic range)
the rotated array doesn't gather ANY more information.

But, using a rectangular array, the maximum resolution is different
in different directions, and rotating the array changes how those
are deployed. Whether that is advantageous to the human perception
of the final image (under what circumstanmces, for what kind of
subject matter) is another matter altogether (out of which I am
basically staying!).

Doug Kerr
 
Sorry againan error:
Hi,

I made some internet research to find some info on the
photoreceptor arrays on the retina. here is what i found:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~praymond/research.html

http://www.homepages.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgajec
(the most relevant is the article "spatial regularity among retinal
neurons",
Fig. 3 and 4, Chapter 3) D=dorsal "up"; V=ventral "down" on fig 3.

Overall, although in biology things are never as clear as in
engineering the rotated raster seems to be closer to the reality.

gyorgy
I wonder if we can reach some degree of consensus to wrap this up,
would you agree with these (facts?)...
  • The SuperCCD captures 3MP of raw image data.
  • The SuperCCD optimizes V/H resolution at the expense of diagonal
resolution.
  • Resolution is one of many aspects of image quality.
  • The SuperCCD's V/H res is on par with 4MP cameras for lines oriented
within ~ 5 degrees of pure V/H. Res of lines oriented between 6 and
84 degrees is equal to or slightly lower than conventional 3MP CCDs.
  • No firm evidence has been offered to support, or dismiss, the wisdom
of the resolution tradeoff. Fuji offers a hypothosis.
  • No one knows whether greater human sensitivity to one axis would
warrant boosting weak axis performance, or strengthening favored
axis performance, in order to maximize human enjoyment of the image.
Or, if it matters at all.
  • No other CCD manufacture implements Fuji's approach.
?
Pete,

For a given number of photosites (assuming the same dynamic range)
the rotated array doesn't gather ANY more information.

But, using a rectangular array, the maximum resolution is different
in different directions, and rotating the array changes how those
are deployed. Whether that is advantageous to the human perception
of the final image (under what circumstanmces, for what kind of
subject matter) is another matter altogether (out of which I am
basically staying!).

Doug Kerr
 
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~praymond/research.html
Hi,

I made some internet research to find some info on the
photoreceptor arrays on the retina. here is what i found:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~praymond/research.html

http://www.homepages.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgajec
(the most relevant is the article "spatial regularity among retinal
neurons",
Fig. 3 and 4, Chapter 3) D=dorsal "up"; V=ventral "down" on fig 3.

Overall, although in biology things are never as clear as in
engineering the rotated raster seems to be closer to the reality.

gyorgy
I wonder if we can reach some degree of consensus to wrap this up,
would you agree with these (facts?)...
  • The SuperCCD captures 3MP of raw image data.
  • The SuperCCD optimizes V/H resolution at the expense of diagonal
resolution.
  • Resolution is one of many aspects of image quality.
  • The SuperCCD's V/H res is on par with 4MP cameras for lines oriented
within ~ 5 degrees of pure V/H. Res of lines oriented between 6 and
84 degrees is equal to or slightly lower than conventional 3MP CCDs.
  • No firm evidence has been offered to support, or dismiss, the wisdom
of the resolution tradeoff. Fuji offers a hypothosis.
  • No one knows whether greater human sensitivity to one axis would
warrant boosting weak axis performance, or strengthening favored
axis performance, in order to maximize human enjoyment of the image.
Or, if it matters at all.
  • No other CCD manufacture implements Fuji's approach.
?
Pete,

For a given number of photosites (assuming the same dynamic range)
the rotated array doesn't gather ANY more information.

But, using a rectangular array, the maximum resolution is different
in different directions, and rotating the array changes how those
are deployed. Whether that is advantageous to the human perception
of the final image (under what circumstanmces, for what kind of
subject matter) is another matter altogether (out of which I am
basically staying!).

Doug Kerr
 
http://www.univie.ac.at/Vergl-Physiologie/www/research/morphretframe.html

again, fuji is closer, althouhg not identical.

certainly similarity is not a guarantee of effectivenes, and if one considers the wheel, useful technologies may be useless in living systems. (but there are also many examples when a technological idea taken from nature turned out extremely useful)

overall, designs in nature are usually under strong delection, that optimise the structure. I am quite sure that vision is important enough for vertebrates to have their photoreceptor patterns optimised.

nota bene: the rotated sensor is probably protected by a patent. This may be one cause for which other companys don't use it. (but probably there are other reasons also).

Gyorgy
I wonder if we can reach some degree of consensus to wrap this up,
would you agree with these (facts?)...
  • The SuperCCD captures 3MP of raw image data.
  • The SuperCCD optimizes V/H resolution at the expense of diagonal
resolution.
  • Resolution is one of many aspects of image quality.
  • The SuperCCD's V/H res is on par with 4MP cameras for lines oriented
within ~ 5 degrees of pure V/H. Res of lines oriented between 6 and
84 degrees is equal to or slightly lower than conventional 3MP CCDs.
  • No firm evidence has been offered to support, or dismiss, the wisdom
of the resolution tradeoff. Fuji offers a hypothosis.
  • No one knows whether greater human sensitivity to one axis would
warrant boosting weak axis performance, or strengthening favored
axis performance, in order to maximize human enjoyment of the image.
Or, if it matters at all.
  • No other CCD manufacture implements Fuji's approach.
?
Pete,

For a given number of photosites (assuming the same dynamic range)
the rotated array doesn't gather ANY more information.

But, using a rectangular array, the maximum resolution is different
in different directions, and rotating the array changes how those
are deployed. Whether that is advantageous to the human perception
of the final image (under what circumstanmces, for what kind of
subject matter) is another matter altogether (out of which I am
basically staying!).

Doug Kerr
 
Hmm...I'm confused - you're setting out to literally build your own digital camera? No offense, but isn't that a bit difficult for just one person to do?

TM
TheMatrix wrote:
Something I've always wondered...why 6 MP? Why not 10 MP? Or 100
MP? :P
I understand the camera can be "stretched" to 4.3 MP, but why are
the images interpolated beyond that to 6 MP?
 
Hi, Pete,
Doug,

That may very well be true but it still doesn't negate the fact
that MP ratings are determined by the number of photosites in the
CCD and then given an effective range.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "...given an efffective range". Are you referring to the fact that the number of photosites that are actually used to form the image is often a little less than the total number on the sensor?

Doug Kerr
 
http://www.univie.ac.at/Vergl-Physiologie/www/research/morphretframe.html

again, fuji is closer, althouhg not identical.

certainly similarity is not a guarantee of effectivenes, and if one
considers the wheel, useful technologies may be useless in living
systems. (but there are also many examples when a technological
idea taken from nature turned out extremely useful)

overall, designs in nature are usually under strong delection, that
optimise the structure. I am quite sure that vision is important
enough for vertebrates to have their photoreceptor patterns
optimised.

nota bene: the rotated sensor is probably protected by a patent.
This may be one cause for which other companys don't use it. (but
probably there are other reasons also).
Gyorgy,

Nice links, thanks for the work. One little problem though...

The first one, which implies a brick pattern is used on the retina's studied, was derived solely (no pun intended) from examining fish retnas, of all things.

This blows (no pun intended) Fuji's theory, since the undersea world is the one place on earth the "gravity vectory" doesn't create mostly verticals/horizontals, it creates lots of round organic shapes due to the topology of max volume in min material, buoyancy, and the efficiency demands of fluid dynamics.
 
Well

these links were the ones I found most informative, the last one is the most relevant, but the qusetion is why the underwater and surface sensors relatively similar is good. I found a recent paper in the Journal of Theoretical Biology 2003 march 21, : Difference in the retinal cone mosaic pattern between zebrafish and medaka.... the abstract is freely available on the internet (NIH) . Maybe you are right, under water the directionality is practically nonexistent and the sensor orientation simply doesn't matter, thus different ones perform just similarly.
note The JTB is a good journal.

gyorgy
http://www.univie.ac.at/Vergl-Physiologie/www/research/morphretframe.html

again, fuji is closer, althouhg not identical.

certainly similarity is not a guarantee of effectivenes, and if one
considers the wheel, useful technologies may be useless in living
systems. (but there are also many examples when a technological
idea taken from nature turned out extremely useful)

overall, designs in nature are usually under strong delection, that
optimise the structure. I am quite sure that vision is important
enough for vertebrates to have their photoreceptor patterns
optimised.

nota bene: the rotated sensor is probably protected by a patent.
This may be one cause for which other companys don't use it. (but
probably there are other reasons also).
Gyorgy,

Nice links, thanks for the work. One little problem though...

The first one, which implies a brick pattern is used on the
retina's studied, was derived solely (no pun intended) from
examining fish retnas, of all things.

This blows (no pun intended) Fuji's theory, since the undersea
world is the one place on earth the "gravity vectory" doesn't
create mostly verticals/horizontals, it creates lots of round
organic shapes due to the topology of max volume in min material,
buoyancy, and the efficiency demands of fluid dynamics.
 
There is one commonality though, and it would explain all quite nicely.

Natural also has to be ruthlessly efficient, and the brick lattice packs more sensors into less space than the aligned X/Y lattice. The fact that the undersea world and the land-based world might both use it, even with relatively unrelated visual environments, might suggest that its simply a matter of efficiency; cost savings.
these links were the ones I found most informative, the last one is
the most relevant, but the qusetion is why the underwater and
surface sensors relatively similar is good. I found a recent paper
in the Journal of Theoretical Biology 2003 march 21, : Difference
in the retinal cone mosaic pattern between zebrafish and medaka....
the abstract is freely available on the internet (NIH) . Maybe you
are right, under water the directionality is practically
nonexistent and the sensor orientation simply doesn't matter, thus
different ones perform just similarly.
note The JTB is a good journal.

gyorgy
http://www.univie.ac.at/Vergl-Physiologie/www/research/morphretframe.html

again, fuji is closer, althouhg not identical.

certainly similarity is not a guarantee of effectivenes, and if one
considers the wheel, useful technologies may be useless in living
systems. (but there are also many examples when a technological
idea taken from nature turned out extremely useful)

overall, designs in nature are usually under strong delection, that
optimise the structure. I am quite sure that vision is important
enough for vertebrates to have their photoreceptor patterns
optimised.

nota bene: the rotated sensor is probably protected by a patent.
This may be one cause for which other companys don't use it. (but
probably there are other reasons also).
Gyorgy,

Nice links, thanks for the work. One little problem though...

The first one, which implies a brick pattern is used on the
retina's studied, was derived solely (no pun intended) from
examining fish retnas, of all things.

This blows (no pun intended) Fuji's theory, since the undersea
world is the one place on earth the "gravity vectory" doesn't
create mostly verticals/horizontals, it creates lots of round
organic shapes due to the topology of max volume in min material,
buoyancy, and the efficiency demands of fluid dynamics.
 
sg:

Which pattern allows the most regular figures to be packed into a certain area depends on;
  • The area of the figures (in this case, sensors) (I know that is obvious and assumed by your comment; I'm just trying to be thorough.)
  • The shape of the figures.
  • Any constraint on the orientation of the figures
If, for example, circlular figures are desirable (or most practical) for some reason, then the "hexagonal" pattern gives the best packing.

If square figures are desriable, then the regular rectangular array or the "brick" array are the best (and have equal packing efficiency). If we are free to rotate the orientation of the figures with the pattern, then either array rotated would of course be just as good.

If for some reason an octagonal figure is desirable, then either the regular rectangular array or that array rotated by 45 degrees pruced the same packing efficiency.

So I don't see how" packing efficiency" is a factor in comparing the conventional and 45 degree rotated arrays.

Doug Kerr
 
sg:

Which pattern allows the most regular figures to be packed into a
certain area depends on;
  • The area of the figures (in this case, sensors) (I know that is
obvious and assumed by your comment; I'm just trying to be
thorough.)
  • The shape of the figures.
  • Any constraint on the orientation of the figures
If, for example, circlular figures are desirable (or most
practical) for some reason, then the "hexagonal" pattern gives the
best packing.

If square figures are desriable, then the regular rectangular array
or the "brick" array are the best (and have equal packing
efficiency). If we are free to rotate the orientation of the
figures with the pattern, then either array rotated would of course
be just as good.

If for some reason an octagonal figure is desirable, then either
the regular rectangular array or that array rotated by 45 degrees
pruced the same packing efficiency.

So I don't see how" packing efficiency" is a factor in comparing
the conventional and 45 degree rotated arrays.
I was actually quoting Fuji's lit, citing packing as a key SuperCCD advantage...

"The new sensor shape and arrangement of the Super CCD offers a number of advantages over the current, conventional CCD. For example, space efficiency for the photodiode located in each sensor has been dramatically improved by its octagonal shape. In addition, the arrangement of the sensors allows them to be packed at maximum density and this efficient use of space allows for larger photodiodes and higher resolutions."

Note: They've done a full 180 on that very argument with SuperCCD4. If their SuperCCD3 argument was infact correct, then the most space-efficient design for SuperCCD4 is a conventional X/Y grid. They can't have it both ways.
 
I think marketing always introduces inaccuracies, and simplifications that turn out oversimplifications when one looks closer. Theoretically the octogonal sensor shape is the less effective: you can cover a surface ideally with squares, but you cannot do it with octogons- little squares beteween them always remain. But for some reason which i do not know the fuji design do not need a "control signal path", thus its space can be used. If density is definied as total photodiode area/sensor area, given a fixed amount of pixels, than it becomes very unclear for non professionals to find outactually where the trade-offs are in the manufacturing process. a conventonal photodiode occupy ~ 30% of the pixel area , but I found no data on fuji %, on the drawing it looks larger, but who knows...

Fuji has to somehow advertise its products, so they use arguments like similarity to the "human perception" (Eye movements? retina?) that may sound good if one don't care too much about details (and also theremay be some truth in it). Mathematics, engineering arguments, anything that sounds too much scientific has to be avoided, if they want to sell the product (note that their sell much less S2-s than cnsumer cameras ...). I dont like it and they should provide more scientific information, but on the other hands complex math frightens most people.

Although i m a biologist I dont think that the similarity with any retina pattern is a real argument, i think the cause lies in the spectral analysis i described in the previous mesages, becouse the advantages- costs are clearly visible there. But how many customers will know what a Fourier analysis is?

gyorgy
sg:

Which pattern allows the most regular figures to be packed into a
certain area depends on;
  • The area of the figures (in this case, sensors) (I know that is
obvious and assumed by your comment; I'm just trying to be
thorough.)
  • The shape of the figures.
  • Any constraint on the orientation of the figures
If, for example, circlular figures are desirable (or most
practical) for some reason, then the "hexagonal" pattern gives the
best packing.

If square figures are desriable, then the regular rectangular array
or the "brick" array are the best (and have equal packing
efficiency). If we are free to rotate the orientation of the
figures with the pattern, then either array rotated would of course
be just as good.

If for some reason an octagonal figure is desirable, then either
the regular rectangular array or that array rotated by 45 degrees
pruced the same packing efficiency.

So I don't see how" packing efficiency" is a factor in comparing
the conventional and 45 degree rotated arrays.
I was actually quoting Fuji's lit, citing packing as a key SuperCCD
advantage...

"The new sensor shape and arrangement of the Super CCD offers a
number of advantages over the current, conventional CCD. For
example, space efficiency for the photodiode located in each sensor
has been dramatically improved by its octagonal shape. In addition,
the arrangement of the sensors allows them to be packed at maximum
density and this efficient use of space allows for larger
photodiodes and higher resolutions."

Note: They've done a full 180 on that very argument with SuperCCD4.
If their SuperCCD3 argument was infact correct, then the most
space-efficient design for SuperCCD4 is a conventional X/Y grid.
They can't have it both ways.
 
I think marketing always introduces inaccuracies, and
simplifications that turn out oversimplifications when one looks
closer. Theoretically the octogonal sensor shape is the less
effective: you can cover a surface ideally with squares, but you
cannot do it with octogons- little squares beteween them always
remain. But for some reason which i do not know the fuji design do
not need a "control signal path", thus its space can be used. If
density is definied as total photodiode area/sensor area, given a
fixed amount of pixels, than it becomes very unclear for non
professionals to find outactually where the trade-offs are in the
manufacturing process. a conventonal photodiode occupy ~ 30% of the
pixel area , but I found no data on fuji %, on the drawing it looks
larger, but who knows...

Fuji has to somehow advertise its products, so they use arguments
like similarity to the "human perception" (Eye movements? retina?)
that may sound good if one don't care too much about details (and
also theremay be some truth in it). Mathematics, engineering
arguments, anything that sounds too much scientific has to be
avoided, if they want to sell the product (note that their sell
much less S2-s than cnsumer cameras ...). I dont like it and they
should provide more scientific information, but on the other hands
complex math frightens most people.

Although i m a biologist I dont think that the similarity with any
retina pattern is a real argument, i think the cause lies in the
spectral analysis i described in the previous mesages, becouse the
advantages- costs are clearly visible there. But how many customers
will know what a Fourier analysis is?
I totally agree with that. I understand the forces these companies are under to sell products to the masses. But there is a line to be drawn when a "simplification" becomes an intentional distortion.

I think one example was the original attempt to pass off the S602 as a 6MP camera. Its not a lie, really, but its clearly not truthful either when it only has 3M sensors. People caught on and Fuji changed their tune. Now, actual sensor count is made pretty clear when you read most Fuji ads and reviews.

Now with the emergence of SuperCCD4, I fear we may have entered a new low in intentional distortion. In the context of their first gaff, there can be no excuse whatsoever for calling the same 3MP sensor a 6/12MP sensor.

I am just guessing; connecting (a disturbing amount of) dots. I hope I'm wrong and they've actually wedged all those funny little mini-octagons in between all those other octagons making the whole thing a chocolate mess. A mess that is geometrically unrelated to their initial geometry-dependent efficiency claims, unless you are ready to call a conventional CCD X/Y pattern, two interlocking diagonal patterns. That would still be better than the alternative scenario, the implications of which I won't even go into right now, until there is more proof one way or the other.
gyorgy
sg:

Which pattern allows the most regular figures to be packed into a
certain area depends on;
  • The area of the figures (in this case, sensors) (I know that is
obvious and assumed by your comment; I'm just trying to be
thorough.)
  • The shape of the figures.
  • Any constraint on the orientation of the figures
If, for example, circlular figures are desirable (or most
practical) for some reason, then the "hexagonal" pattern gives the
best packing.

If square figures are desriable, then the regular rectangular array
or the "brick" array are the best (and have equal packing
efficiency). If we are free to rotate the orientation of the
figures with the pattern, then either array rotated would of course
be just as good.

If for some reason an octagonal figure is desirable, then either
the regular rectangular array or that array rotated by 45 degrees
pruced the same packing efficiency.

So I don't see how" packing efficiency" is a factor in comparing
the conventional and 45 degree rotated arrays.
I was actually quoting Fuji's lit, citing packing as a key SuperCCD
advantage...

"The new sensor shape and arrangement of the Super CCD offers a
number of advantages over the current, conventional CCD. For
example, space efficiency for the photodiode located in each sensor
has been dramatically improved by its octagonal shape. In addition,
the arrangement of the sensors allows them to be packed at maximum
density and this efficient use of space allows for larger
photodiodes and higher resolutions."

Note: They've done a full 180 on that very argument with SuperCCD4.
If their SuperCCD3 argument was infact correct, then the most
space-efficient design for SuperCCD4 is a conventional X/Y grid.
They can't have it both ways.
 
I agre, the 6mp (and previously 4mp) marketing "tricks" probably caused more harm to fuji than they expected. I don't believe that they didn't know that the real H/V resolution of their cameras is worse than 6mp conv. cam. I like the idea of rotated sensor, a clever optimalisation of sensor efficiency, but the 4mp label on a 2mp camera (that performs close to 3) will cause that the real advantages of the sensor will remain unnoticed, under the heavy critics that proove that 2 isn't 4.

I like very much the fact that fuji cares about other aspects of image quality than resolution. They seem to be the only ones. But I see again the same pixel count mess, because if I undestand well their brochures, the combined information from S and R pixels will produce one pixel as an output (since they are not equivalent). But how this divided pixel structure will affect the interpolation process? The number of possible mathematical tricks is much higher here so I have no idea. Will see the reults in the reviews. And i really hope that the performance will be comparable with the claims. It would be a great step forward.

the funny thing is that this S R structure is very similar also to the different photoreceptor types in our eyes, now we don't see biological arguments ...marketing again....
I think marketing always introduces inaccuracies, and
simplifications that turn out oversimplifications when one looks
closer. Theoretically the octogonal sensor shape is the less
effective: you can cover a surface ideally with squares, but you
cannot do it with octogons- little squares beteween them always
remain. But for some reason which i do not know the fuji design do
not need a "control signal path", thus its space can be used. If
density is definied as total photodiode area/sensor area, given a
fixed amount of pixels, than it becomes very unclear for non
professionals to find outactually where the trade-offs are in the
manufacturing process. a conventonal photodiode occupy ~ 30% of the
pixel area , but I found no data on fuji %, on the drawing it looks
larger, but who knows...

Fuji has to somehow advertise its products, so they use arguments
like similarity to the "human perception" (Eye movements? retina?)
that may sound good if one don't care too much about details (and
also theremay be some truth in it). Mathematics, engineering
arguments, anything that sounds too much scientific has to be
avoided, if they want to sell the product (note that their sell
much less S2-s than cnsumer cameras ...). I dont like it and they
should provide more scientific information, but on the other hands
complex math frightens most people.

Although i m a biologist I dont think that the similarity with any
retina pattern is a real argument, i think the cause lies in the
spectral analysis i described in the previous mesages, becouse the
advantages- costs are clearly visible there. But how many customers
will know what a Fourier analysis is?
I totally agree with that. I understand the forces these companies
are under to sell products to the masses. But there is a line to
be drawn when a "simplification" becomes an intentional distortion.

I think one example was the original attempt to pass off the S602
as a 6MP camera. Its not a lie, really, but its clearly not
truthful either when it only has 3M sensors. People caught on and
Fuji changed their tune. Now, actual sensor count is made pretty
clear when you read most Fuji ads and reviews.

Now with the emergence of SuperCCD4, I fear we may have entered a
new low in intentional distortion. In the context of their first
gaff, there can be no excuse whatsoever for calling the same 3MP
sensor a 6/12MP sensor.

I am just guessing; connecting (a disturbing amount of) dots. I
hope I'm wrong and they've actually wedged all those funny little
mini-octagons in between all those other octagons making the whole
thing a chocolate mess. A mess that is geometrically unrelated to
their initial geometry-dependent efficiency claims, unless you are
ready to call a conventional CCD X/Y pattern, two interlocking
diagonal patterns. That would still be better than the
alternative scenario, the implications of which I won't even go
into right now, until there is more proof one way or the other.
 
I agre, the 6mp (and previously 4mp) marketing "tricks" probably
caused more harm to fuji than they expected. I don't believe that
they didn't know that the real H/V resolution of their cameras is
worse than 6mp conv. cam. I like the idea of rotated sensor, a
clever optimalisation of sensor efficiency, but the 4mp label on a
2mp camera (that performs close to 3) will cause that the real
advantages of the sensor will remain unnoticed, under the heavy
critics that proove that 2 isn't 4.

I like very much the fact that fuji cares about other aspects of
image quality than resolution.
Me too, now if they would just stop the incessant distortions.
They seem to be the only ones. But I
see again the same pixel count mess, because if I undestand well
their brochures, the combined information from S and R pixels will
produce one pixel as an output (since they are not equivalent). But
how this divided pixel structure will affect the interpolation
process?
The real question is, are there two separate S and R pixels? If you read their literature carefully, they tap dance around that. They say, the HR version (of the S2 Pro) is "announced today." Read carefully...

The SuperCCD4 SR is not "announced today," like the new HR CCD, but rather it is a "new configuration."

Not 6.7 million "sensors," 6.7 million "pixels."

Not "has" 6.7 million," but "incorporates" 6.7 million.

Reference...

http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epartners/PressCenterDetail.jsp?DBID=NEWS_526484

And isn't interesting that the SuperCCD SR has exactly the same pixel count as the older SuperCCD3 in terms of S and R pixels (3.35M x 2 = 6.7M), while the SuperCCD HR (the S2 Pro's true 6MP CCD) has a different number of pixels, 6.63M? This proves they aren't the same chip.

So does the careful use of the word "also" here...
"Also measuring 1/1.7" in size..."

I believe they are using the same exact SuperCCD3 chip, but double pumping the exposure with a mini-bracket, then digitally combining the resulting images. If you read their page with the most liberal, sleezy lawyer interpretations of their words and diagrams, you will see they never really deny this is what they are doing. It would even explain the strange "mini- octagon" representation of the both the S and the R pixel (not sensor), since they are only portrayed as being symbolically distinct (seperated by time), not topologically distinct. "See, we aren't being dishonest at all, its all right there for the world to see."

Also note the "accumulated charge" diagrams. When S and R are shown together, they have no choice but to make it clear the two "pixels" (sort of shown as one sensor) accumulate their charges in series, not in parallel. The S pixel doesn't gather any light while the R pixel is operating. Yet the individual charge diagrams above it seem to be designed to intentionally ditch that minor little distinction ("but, but, but we are just showing them one at a time, there").

Is the SuperCCD4 SR's 6MP "pixel" count the same, exact, recycled hoax as SuperCCD3, using the same, exact unchanged 3 million site sensor??

It sure looks like it.
The number of possible mathematical tricks is much higher
here so I have no idea. Will see the reults in the reviews. And i
really hope that the performance will be comparable with the
claims. It would be a great step forward.

the funny thing is that this S R structure is very similar also to
the different photoreceptor types in our eyes, now we don't see
biological arguments ...marketing again....
Right. And there is no mention of the fact that if they really did add 3MP more sensors, which I don't think they did, stacking them on top would produce a conventional X/Y aligned CCD grid.
 
sg and Gyorgy,

I anjoy your recent "takes" on this overall matter.

Gyorgy, I'm not sure I agree with this statement in your last post:
I don't believe that
they didn't know that the real H/V resolution of their cameras is
worse than 6mp conv. cam.
Based on my recent analysis of the "rotated" sensor array (and in a simplistic, geometric way only), the H/V resolution achieved with the "rotated" 3MP sensor shoud be on a par with the H/V resolution avieved with a conventional (non-rotated) 6MP sensor. The 45 degree diagonal resolution, though, would be expected to be about half that for a conventional 6MP sensor.

None of this intrudes into your overall observations, however.

Doug Kerr
 

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