Early GF6 review

kenw · Apr 5, 2013

Cipher said:
Cipher wrote:

I got mine with my GF1. Is it worth the upgrade?

No one knows for sure yet, but based on ephotozine's reviews of the 14-45 and the 14-42II I'd say no it is not worth the upgrade. If you look at their imatest results closely you can see the 14-45 is equal to or besting the 14-42II in all but one case - erroneously high center MTF50 numbers from imatest. This is a known problem with imatest, once things get near or above the "excellent" level on ephotozine there is no point in comparing - you are looking at testing artifacts.

Instead pay more attention to the edge performance. There you will see the lenses comparing closely to each other in most cases. The 14-45 doing a bit better at the wide end, the 14-42II doing a bit better at the long end.

Also note that at least in this case they used the same camera body to test both lenses so there is some value in comparing the two tests (a sadly rare occurrence).

Also note such testing is really better at generating numbers and tables we can score keep than actually telling us much about the IQ of the lenses. My standard link to a good article about how flawed these tests usually are:

http://toothwalker.org/optics/lenstest.html

And finally, it is worth noting if the ephotozine's review is to be believed and the 14-42II is performing close to what the 14-45 is doing then that is really good news. The 14-45 is a really great kit lens and if the 14-42II is keeping up then that means m43 kits containing this lens will have a leg up on the offerings of most of the other MILC offerings (possible exception being the Fuji zoom - but that is far too expensive a lens to be considered a kit zoom even if they do sell it kitted with camera bodies).

mpgxsvcd · Apr 5, 2013

marike6 said:
marike6 wrote:

marike6 said:

peevee1 wrote:

Are they serious, they are still selling it with the big 14-42, not the 14-42 PZ? How are they going to compete with NEX-3n where small 16-50 PZ comes standard?

Click to expand...

Actually they are selling the GF6 with the brand new 14-42, which is a far better lens than the incredibly mediocre 14-42 PZ and Sony 16-50 PZ for that matter. In fact, based on ePhotozine's rave review of the 14-42, it may be the best kit lens ever made for m43. It's small (unless you happen to belong to the "miniaturization at all costs, performance be damned" crowd), extremely sharp and has a metal mount.

ePhotozine 14-42 3.5-5.6 G Vario II Review (Highly Recommended)

http://www.ephotozine.com/article/panasonic-lumix-g-vario-14-42mm-f-3-5-5-6-ii-lens-review-21563

Cheers, and happy shooting, Markus

That lens looks as good as the 14-45mm minus the last 3mm.

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mpgxsvcd · Apr 5, 2013

Sean Nelson said:
Sean Nelson wrote:

Sean Nelson said:

mpgxsvcd wrote:

The most interesting fact about the GF6 is that it now has manual movie controls.

Click to expand...

If this is the case and assuming it also has 1080p60 then I may well be a customer. But I didn't see it in the cached review - where did you come across this tidbit?

It has the manual movie setting on the dial which no other Panasonic m4/3s camera but the GH line has had before. It is likely that it won't support 24p though. It should have 1080p @ 60 FPS and 28 mb/sec though.

In all likely hood it will have both AVC-HD and MP4 formats for 1080p @ 60 FPS. They just added the 1080p @ 60 FPS MP4 mode to the GH3 so they probably just got it ready for the GF6 as well.

Cipher · Apr 5, 2013

kenw said:
kenw wrote:

kenw said:

Cipher wrote:

I got mine with my GF1. Is it worth the upgrade?

Click to expand...

No one knows for sure yet, but based on ephotozine's reviews of the 14-45 and the 14-42II I'd say no it is not worth the upgrade. If you look at their imatest results closely you can see the 14-45 is equal to or besting the 14-42II in all but one case - erroneously high center MTF50 numbers from imatest. This is a known problem with imatest, once things get near or above the "excellent" level on ephotozine there is no point in comparing - you are looking at testing artifacts.

Instead pay more attention to the edge performance. There you will see the lenses comparing closely to each other in most cases. The 14-45 doing a bit better at the wide end, the 14-42II doing a bit better at the long end.

Also note that at least in this case they used the same camera body to test both lenses so there is some value in comparing the two tests (a sadly rare occurrence).

Also note such testing is really better at generating numbers and tables we can score keep than actually telling us much about the IQ of the lenses. My standard link to a good article about how flawed these tests usually are:

http://toothwalker.org/optics/lenstest.html

And finally, it is worth noting if the ephotozine's review is to be believed and the 14-42II is performing close to what the 14-45 is doing then that is really good news. The 14-45 is a really great kit lens and if the 14-42II is keeping up then that means m43 kits containing this lens will have a leg up on the offerings of most of the other MILC offerings (possible exception being the Fuji zoom - but that is far too expensive a lens to be considered a kit zoom even if they do sell it kitted with camera bodies).

Kim Letkeman · Apr 5, 2013

marike6 said:
marike6 wrote:

marike6 said:

peevee1 wrote:

Are they serious, they are still selling it with the big 14-42, not the 14-42 PZ? How are they going to compete with NEX-3n where small 16-50 PZ comes standard?

Click to expand...

Actually they are selling the GF6 with the brand new 14-42, which is a far better lens than the incredibly mediocre 14-42 PZ

Not only does the PZ lens test well, and it shoots well. I would not even characterize it as "average", never mind the incredibly overstated "incredibly mediocre"

marike6 said:
and Sony 16-50 PZ for that matter. In fact, based on ePhotozine's rave review of the 14-42, it may be the best kit lens ever made for m43. It's small (unless you happen to belong to the "miniaturization at all costs, performance be damned" crowd), extremely sharp and has a metal mount.

Sounds great .... but remember two things:

Sample variation -- too many people ignore this
Noise -- some people make a lot of it, often without the benefit of critical thought

So while this new lens sounds wonderful, my PZ lens is tiny, extremely sharp, and a joy to use for stills and for video.

marike6 said:

panasonic-gf3-LUMIX-G-X-VARIO-PZ-14-42mm-F3.-.5-5.6-ASPH-1.jpg

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This blog is my personal space. Do not confuse this with statements or opinions on behalf of any employer I have ever had, have now, or will ever have in the future.

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fleckster48 · Apr 5, 2013

That pretty much sums it up. No viewfinder and no hot shoe. Both Panasonic and Metz have nice flash units for these cameras. Also, I have bought into the MFT because they are lighter and smaller. Now they want to make them larger and heavier, is this to justify the cost?

tt321 · Apr 5, 2013

sigala1 said:
sigala1 wrote:

sigala1 said:

Sergey Borachev wrote:

sigala1 said:

tt321 wrote:

sigala1 said:

Sergey Borachev wrote:

This GF6 would have been great and would sell very well, for at least a few months, if it were released last April, before the RX100, the E-PM2 and E-PL5. Why is Panasonic doing this again, like what they did with the G5? I can see its price dropped by 40% in 6 months' time. Next!

Click to expand...

All M43 cameras so far, outside the top models, have had this kind of price reduction rate. Even the top models suffer price collapses more quickly than your typical equivalent SLR. So?

This is such a common place thing that I don't think the manufacturers would plan model features based on that.

Click to expand...

All M43 cameras did not have this kind of price reduction rate. For example, the E-M5 has been out for a year and has not dropped in price much.

It's just the GX1, the G5 that have dramatic price drops just half a year after release and being the current models, due to their uncompetitive sensors. The E-PL3 was also discounted heavily, but it was much older than those two and it has been replaced by the E-PL5 and not a current model.

It is a worry though if one wants to re-sell the older camera when upgrading, if it drops in price so quickly. A bad choice does not just mean a less enjoyable experience in shooting, but also more depreciation and more TCO. So, if you like this GF6, it's best to wait till Christmas so you can pay much less for it. :-D

Click to expand...

I thought I said "outside the top models". Pricing strategies are radically different for items close to the top of the line and those close to the bottom.

sigala1 said:
The E-M5 (1) was and still is state-of-the art with it's sensor and 5-axis IBIS; (2) it's aimed at a higher less price-sensitive part of the market.

Indeed.

sigala1 said:
It's hard to see why someone would pay full price for a GF-6 when you can get an E-PM2 or E-PL5 for less money, and both those cameras have a superior sensor, ability to take EVF or external flash.

Agreed. However, Wifi, easy panorama and the ability to watch oneself being shot

are probably quite important to some segments of the market.

cprevost · Apr 5, 2013

I"m not sure how this guy can compete with the current Oly offerings? If it's not priced significantly cheaper I don't see why anyone would buy this instead of the Oly? Counting on people to be too misinformed to realize that the Oly is a far better camera is not good marketing.... Perhaps they had a ton of GX1 sensors to use up since that model didn't sell well?

Sean Nelson · Apr 5, 2013

Kim Letkeman said:
Kim Letkeman wrote:

Kim Letkeman said:

peevee1 wrote:

Are they serious, they are still selling it with the big 14-42, not the 14-42 PZ? How are they going to compete with NEX-3n where small 16-50 PZ comes standard?

Click to expand...

There will probably be a kit with the pancake as well ... I got into m4/3 by grabbing a GF3 kit with the PZ lens for 400 bucks ... a real steal at the time ...

I'm not convinced of that. When I went to have a look at the GH3 body at my local camera dealer I asked about getting it with the 14-42PZ lens, and was told that it was no longer orderable as a separate item. I got the impression that it had been discontinued.

Sean Nelson · Apr 5, 2013

mpgxsvcd said:
mpgxsvcd wrote:

mpgxsvcd said:

Sean Nelson wrote:

mpgxsvcd said:

mpgxsvcd wrote:

The most interesting fact about the GF6 is that it now has manual movie controls.

Click to expand...

If this is the case and assuming it also has 1080p60 then I may well be a customer. But I didn't see it in the cached review - where did you come across this tidbit?

Click to expand...

It has the manual movie setting on the dial which no other Panasonic m4/3s camera but the GH line has had before.

Ah, that's pretty decent evidence, thanks.

What would make me go for this is for use as a "take-everywhere" hybrid camera. I'd really want to get it with the 14-42 PZ lens, although the unavailability of that lens may mean that I'd have to buy it used or buy an older-stock kit camera with it.

Kim Letkeman · Apr 5, 2013

Sean Nelson said:
Sean Nelson wrote:

Sean Nelson said:

Kim Letkeman wrote:

Sean Nelson said:

peevee1 wrote:

Are they serious, they are still selling it with the big 14-42, not the 14-42 PZ? How are they going to compete with NEX-3n where small 16-50 PZ comes standard?

Click to expand...

There will probably be a kit with the pancake as well ... I got into m4/3 by grabbing a GF3 kit with the PZ lens for 400 bucks ... a real steal at the time ...

Click to expand...

I'm not convinced of that. When I went to have a look at the GH3 body at my local camera dealer I asked about getting it with the 14-42PZ lens, and was told that it was no longer orderable as a separate item. I got the impression that it had been discontinued.

Ah well, c'est la vie I suppose ... they are getting cheaper used, so people who want tiny can always go that route. The GF3 with 14-42 PZ is a very (coat) pocketable combo ...

sigala1 · Apr 5, 2013

tt321 said:
tt321 wrote:
I thought I said "outside the top models". Pricing strategies are radically different for items close to the top of the line and those close to the bottom.

tt321 said:

The E-M5 (1) was and still is state-of-the art with it's sensor and 5-axis IBIS; (2) it's aimed at a higher less price-sensitive part of the market.

Click to expand...

Indeed.

tt321 said:

It's hard to see why someone would pay full price for a GF-6 when you can get an E-PM2 or E-PL5 for less money, and both those cameras have a superior sensor, ability to take EVF or external flash.

Click to expand...

Agreed. However, Wifi, easy panorama and the ability to watch oneself being shot are probably quite important to some segments of the market.

But will that segment of the market want to pay the very high asking price for a GF6?

Sean Nelson · Apr 5, 2013

sigala1 said:
sigala1 wrote:
It's hard to see why someone would pay full price for a GF-6 when you can get an E-PM2 or E-PL5 for less money, and both those cameras have a superior sensor, ability to take EVF or external flash.

I'm often amused at all the angst over what, to me, are relatively small differences in sensor capabilities when everyone who's buying M43 cameras have already accepted the compromise of a smaller sensor in the first place. If sensor performance is paramount, why don't y'all just buy a camera with a larger sensor and superior performance?

For me, the key advantage of the GF-6, if it really has these features, is 1080p60 video with manual controls, packaged in a small body with flip screen. I really like most of Olympus's M43 cameras, but until they get their video act together they're just not in my field of view.

AndyGM · Apr 5, 2013

sigala1 said:
sigala1 wrote:

It's hard to see why someone would pay full price for a GF-6 when you can get an E-PM2 or E-PL5 for less money, and both those cameras have a superior sensor, ability to take EVF or external flash.

This isn't right at all. In the UK, the EPM2 is £500, the EPL5 is £550, and have been on the market for months. The GF6 launch price is £450. Most people thinking of buying a camera will see it has a flip screen like the EPL5 so will compare it with that, and they will not get why the Olympus is £100 more.

And yeah, the sensor on the GF6 is old (older, shall we say), but for the audience this camera is for, a built in flash is far better than the shonky clip on thing you get with the Pens, the built in WiFi means you can get those great looking pics onto your smartphone and then onto social media on the spot, the kit lens seems to be optically better than the Olympus one and not much bigger, and the video (along with the OIS in the lens) will get you far better looking results than the PENs too.

I think a lot of people are unfairly writing this camera off - even before Panasonic have officially launched it!

safaridon · Apr 5, 2013

cprevost said:
cprevost wrote:

I"m not sure how this guy can compete with the current Oly offerings? If it's not priced significantly cheaper I don't see why anyone would buy this instead of the Oly? Counting on people to be too misinformed to realize that the Oly is a far better camera is not good marketing.... Perhaps they had a ton of GX1 sensors to use up since that model didn't sell well?

Everytime Pany introduces a new camera we get Oly fans posting comments similar to the above comments. What specific Oly offering are you referring to but assume you are referring to the respective entry GF6 and the EPM2? Why should the GF6 be priced significantly cheaper than the EPM2 when it has Wi-Fi & NFC which no other camera system has, has much better HD video capability, has a touch screen, and higher IQ kit zoom etc? Yes the current PENs have a newer better sensor but few users of the GX1 are complaining as it has just as high maximum resolution as the EM5 sensor at lower ISO even if DR is lower. Oly consistently has had better JPEG processor engines in their cameras but that is the area which Pany is said to have improved with the GF6. As far as the claim the GX1 model didn't sell well just check and you will find that in both Japan and US the GX1 has outsold the EM5 for most of the last year. I think the reason Pany has not put the GH3 sensor in this model is because because of production cost considerations and they have a new revolutionary type of sensor under development which will reportedly be introduced next year in their models.

safaridon · Apr 5, 2013

Kim Letkeman said:
Kim Letkeman wrote:

Kim Letkeman said:

peevee1 wrote:

Are they serious, they are still selling it with the big 14-42, not the 14-42 PZ? How are they going to compete with NEX-3n where small 16-50 PZ comes standard?

Click to expand...

There will probably be a kit with the pancake as well ... I got into m4/3 by grabbing a GF3 kit with the PZ lens for 400 bucks ... a real steal at the time ...

Sean Nelson · Apr 5, 2013

safaridon said:
safaridon wrote:

I think it is a safe assumption the 14-42 PZ will also be a kit lens option since the GF6 I believe has a zoom toggle around the shutter button which cannot be used with the shown new kit lens?

Again, I'm skeptical because the 14-42 PZ doesn't seem to be available as a separate lens any more, and it looks to me like all of the previous kits with this lens (GF-5, GX1) have also been withdrawn. I haven't seen any of these kits at any of our stores recently, they all seem to be the older 14-42 lens.

marike6 · Apr 5, 2013

Kim Letkeman said:
Kim Letkeman wrote:

Kim Letkeman said:

So while this new lens sounds wonderful, my PZ lens is tiny, extremely sharp, and a joy to use for stills and for video.

Click to expand...

I've never read any of the lens testing site characterize the 14-42 PZ as "extremely sharp" but if you say so.

I was reacting the a commenter above who was wondering something to the effect of "why in the world would anyone want any 14-42 kit lens over the PZ?". And the answer is obvious: it is optically superior to the pancake zoom. There are some great pancake primes, but there has nobody has yet to make a high quality pancake zoom. The 14-42 PZ has huge vignetting and CAs, some of the highest of any kit lens so the lens is really only usable on Panasonic cameras that auto-correct these issues.

I'm not much of a zoom user, but I'd take the new kit lens over the PZ any day as small size is just not that important to me.

tedolf · Apr 5, 2013

marike6 said:
marike6 wrote:

marike6 said:

Kim Letkeman wrote:

marike6 said:

So while this new lens sounds wonderful, my PZ lens is tiny, extremely sharp, and a joy to use for stills and for video.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I've never read any of the lens testing site characterize the 14-42 PZ as "extremely sharp" but if you say so.

I was reacting the a commenter above who was wondering something to the effect of "why in the world would anyone want any 14-42 kit lens over the PZ?". And the answer is obvious: it is optically superior to the pancake zoom. There are some great pancake primes, but there has nobody has yet to make a high quality pancake zoom. The 14-42 PZ has huge vignetting and CAs, some of the highest of any kit lens so the lens is really only usable on Panasonic cameras that auto-correct these issues.

I'm not much of a zoom user, but I'd take the new kit lens over the PZ any day as small size is just not that important to me.

when it comes to meeting customer desires sometimes.

They seem to value "wiz-bang" features over stuff photographer really care about.

Now I will give them credit where credit is due-thier video is fantastic. Even my TS-2 takes incridible, sharp, stablilized video with its tiny senor. The 14-45mm lens is a very, every nice product and I really should get one while it is still avialable.

But, they don't seem to understand (sometimes) what really matters to photographers.

For example:

the GF-1-

An amazing techincal tour de force-compact, fast AF, first built in flash, nice controls but the shutter was noisy-really noisy and annoying-a metalic "clank". A real turn off to someone who was looking for a rangefinder replacement. Oly knows this, Leica (Panny's "partner") knows this but somehow Panny didn't get the memo that a quite shutter is very important in a compact camera.

GF-3/5/6:

No hot shoe.

Come on, what were they thinking!

GF-2:

Better shutter sound but-they disabled the manual control of the flash from the GF-1!

Why would anybody who knows anything about photogtraphy do that?

Also, why were the Venus JPEG engine colors so bad?

Don't they realize they look as bad as the color shots from my compact TS-2?

GH-3:

They had a nice thing going with the GH-2, nice multi-aspect sensor, great ergonomics, video, etc. and then...........they made it gigantic! Don't they understand that compactness is an inherent part of what makes u 4/3 appealing to photographers?

and now the GF-6, as if more MP's is what the GF-5 really needed?

Do we need to talk about the 14-42PZ lens?

Really, unless you are doing video who needs power zoom?

And if you are doing video, who needs a compact lens?

Maybe they should rescue the Minolta enginees from the Sony dungeon.

Tedolph

louroll · Apr 5, 2013

Sean Nelson said:
Sean Nelson wrote:

Sean Nelson said:

Kim Letkeman wrote:

Sean Nelson said:

peevee1 wrote:

Are they serious, they are still selling it with the big 14-42, not the 14-42 PZ? How are they going to compete with NEX-3n where small 16-50 PZ comes standard?

Click to expand...

There will probably be a kit with the pancake as well ... I got into m4/3 by grabbing a GF3 kit with the PZ lens for 400 bucks ... a real steal at the time ...

Click to expand...

I'm not convinced of that. When I went to have a look at the GH3 body at my local camera dealer I asked about getting it with the 14-42PZ lens, and was told that it was no longer orderable as a separate item. I got the impression that it had been discontinued.

On the web, one sees the Panasonic Vario 14-42 PZ lens still being advertised with the GX1 and GF5, as well as on a stand alone basis by various stores (amazon, B+H, amongst others), however B+H sells only the white one while the black one has the mention "discontinued".

Early GF6 review

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