5D Mark III firmware update, AF at f/8 begs the question...

BillyGoatGruff · Apr 4, 2013

So, the new firmware update this April will give us autofocus (center cross-type points) at f/8. This update begs the question....

Why was this feature not available upon the camera’s release last year?

Is it a feature that they’re creating by sort-of ‘jury-rigging’ the hardware to do things it wasn’t originally designed to do?

Or was it a feature that Canon deliberately prevented the camera from doing until now, for fiscal reasons?

Canon’s original explanation for not having autofocus at f/8 was the assertion that the autofocus system was more geared toward superior focusing in good lighting conditions using fast(er) lenses, and that they had to make a trade-off giving up autofocus at smaller apertures. This software update renders this claim by Canon untrue, I would think.

MASTERPPA · Apr 4, 2013

Since the D1x did not have F8, I would say it was NOT a financial reason. (ie, trying to get you to buy a 1Dx.)

But I am guessing the focus at F8 will be FAR from great. I bet they did have F8 and were having a lot of OOF images, or cases where it would not lock. So, they spend a year working on a way to do it with software, but it is more a hardware issues.

BillyGoatGruff said:
BillyGoatGruff wrote:

So, the new firmware update this April will give us autofocus (center cross-type points) at f/8. This update begs the question....

Why was this feature not available upon the camera’s release last year?

Is it a feature that they’re creating by sort-of ‘jury-rigging’ the hardware to do things it wasn’t originally designed to do?

Or was it a feature that Canon deliberately prevented the camera from doing until now, for fiscal reasons?

Canon’s original explanation for not having autofocus at f/8 was the assertion that the autofocus system was more geared toward superior focusing in good lighting conditions using fast(er) lenses, and that they had to make a trade-off giving up autofocus at smaller apertures. This software update renders this claim by Canon untrue, I would think.

aftab · Apr 4, 2013

Some people with Kenko extender were getting autofocus at f/8 from day one. Not sure how that is possible. Well, at least some people claimed it in some threads here.

M Stewart · Apr 4, 2013

aftab said:
aftab wrote:

Some people with Kenko extender were getting autofocus at f/8 from day one. Not sure how that is possible. Well, at least some people claimed it in some threads here.

schmegg · Apr 4, 2013

aftab said:
aftab wrote:

Some people with Kenko extender were getting autofocus at f/8 from day one. Not sure how that is possible. Well, at least some people claimed it in some threads here.

I get AF confirmation at f8 with my 5D3 in fairly dim light. It works down to at least EV-1, which is pretty dark (1sec f4 ISO12800). I can't really attest to exactly how accurate it is (it's difficult to test TBH), but it seems pretty good. (incidentally, my 7D gives up way before this)

I rather think it's always been borderline f8 to begin with, and with a little tweaking they've made it reliable enough to be considered useful.

Freeman-Jo · Apr 4, 2013

M Stewart said:
M Stewart wrote:

Easy. The Kenko doesn't report the effective aperture of the lens plus extender to the camera. This trick works on lesser models such as the 40D, 50D etc. if the subject has good contrast, and if other factors are favourable. Reports I've seen say it works. but isn't reliable.

There's also the AF motor speed factor - I think that the camera slows the AF motor when it "knows" that an extender is in use.

schmegg · Apr 4, 2013

schmegg said:
schmegg wrote:

schmegg said:

aftab wrote:

Some people with Kenko extender were getting autofocus at f/8 from day one. Not sure how that is possible. Well, at least some people claimed it in some threads here.

Click to expand...

I get AF confirmation at f8 with my 5D3 in fairly dim light. It works down to at least EV-1, which is pretty dark (1sec f4 ISO12800). I can't really attest to exactly how accurate it is (it's difficult to test TBH), but it seems pretty good. (incidentally, my 7D gives up way before this)

I rather think it's always been borderline f8 to begin with, and with a little tweaking they've made it reliable enough to be considered useful.

I should add, to be clear, this was tested with a fully manual lens. And using the centre point.

On reflection - I'm not sure that my naff little experiment actually equates to EV-1. The metered value at f4 is about that, but at f8 it would be even less I guess. And I didn't try any point other than the centre one either.

However ...

I'm now thinking it's more likely the incidence of light striking the AF module that is the limiting factor for consideration here - not the light level. (slaps head in a moment of realisation! LOL!) :-D

Of course - the AF works to EV-2! That is not a limitation placed by the aperture at all. ;-)

Mike921 · Apr 4, 2013

It may not be a grand (financial or otherwise) Canon conspiracy. Believe it or not, in the manufacturing world, as much as engineers want every feature and every thing to be perfect - sales and marketing needs to get the product out the door and sell it! This may just have been an instance of Canon engineering simply running out of time to get f8 into the product release....

TimR32225 · Apr 4, 2013

I think Canon simply underestimated how much grief they got mainly from wildlife photographers when the 1DX specs showed it would only autofocus up to max aperture values of f5.6. Arthur Morris and several others were upset and voicing their opinions fairly loudly in photography forums. We probably owe them a bit of thanks for being the catalyst in getting Canon to make the upgrade.

Obviously it was possible to fix through firmware, and it's actually better than what we had in the previous 1-series bodies (which gave you only center point at max apertures of f8).

The autofocus system in the 1DX runs circles around the 1D Mk 4. I have both cameras and I speak after having used both of them. I shot a loaner 5D Mk3 from Canon CPS for a couple weeks before I decided to purchase the 1DX instead, and I felt like the focus in that camera was as good as the 1Dx, just at a lower frame rate. I have little doubt that the firmware upgrade to provide autofocus at f8 will be as good or better than what we had in all the previous 1-series bodies.

After all, you have center point and 4 surrounding points in the 1DX at f8 (and I presume the same in the 5D3 with the coming firmware update). That is better than single point only that we had in all previous 1-series bodies at f8 max aperture. It's not something you use often but it's great to know you can when you need to. You can also use live view and autofocus at apertures even smaller than f8, although this only makes sense for stationary subjects.

What did not make sense about the whole issue is it rendered the (then new) Canon EF 800L f5.6 lens useless with a 1.4x extender. What that meant is that without AF at f8, Canon might have sold their last 800mm lens. Because you could purchase the 600 f4 instead, and add a 1.4x extender to get to 840mm f5.6, and still come out slightly cheaper.

Zeee · Apr 4, 2013

Mike921 said:
Mike921 wrote:

It may not be a grand (financial or otherwise) Canon conspiracy. Believe it or not, in the manufacturing world, as much as engineers want every feature and every thing to be perfect - sales and marketing needs to get the product out the door and sell it! This may just have been an instance of Canon engineering simply running out of time to get f8 into the product release....

You don't really want to know goes on in the world of manufacturing. 30+ years. We would get new equipment with promises of training and testing and sales would sell work for it before it was even bolted to the floor. However I think underestimating what customer wanted as posted is a pretty strong argument as well.

BillyGoatGruff · Apr 4, 2013

That’s what I’m really curious about.

Keith Z Leonard · Apr 4, 2013

I am one such person, my 100-400 + kenko 1.4x teleconverter yields f8 and autofocuses on my 7D and 5Dmk3. The 7D does fine in good light with a reasonably contrast subject, the 5D3 does MUCH better, snappier locks fast, even in poor lighting conditions. I think f8 will be great on the 5D3 and should mean more teleconverter sales for Canon, really.

dave_bass5 · Apr 5, 2013

My theory is that Canon didnt know how to do it a year ago, so they were working on it back then.

After all, they even announced it last Oct-Nov IIR, yet slated for a April release, not immediately, so i doubt very much it was tech that was held back for purely financial reasons.

Birdman7 · Apr 5, 2013

It was a marketing decision. Canon might have wanted to prevent canabilisaion of 1DX sales by adding AF @ F8 on the 5DX at the same time and deliberately restricted this feature to only that body. 1D series usually have this feature enabled but on 1DX was strangely omitted and later added via a firmware update, and even after the update many users were still finding they could still not AF.

Regarding the Kenko, Canon prob also decided to add the AF@ F8 to 5D, not only for the above reason, but also to increase sales of Canon own 1.4XIII extender, seeing that AF was possible with F5.6 lenses & Kenko extenders, especially with nature photographers and particularly bird photographers like myself.

Barto79 · Apr 5, 2013

aftab said:
aftab wrote:

Some people with Kenko extender were getting autofocus at f/8 from day one. Not sure how that is possible. Well, at least some people claimed it in some threads here.

--
Life is short.
Travel with passion.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/catch45/

I *just* upgraded to a 5DIII and bought the Kenko 1.4x to go with my 400mm f/5.6 lens. I'm just getting used to the setup but it seems to focus very well outdoors, including BIF. The AF system thinks that it's still at f/5.6 but the EXIF shows F/8. I plan on doing some testing comparing optical magnification (the Kenko) vs. "digital" magnification with cropping for my own curiosity.

One thing that I'm not sure of yet is whether the camera will consider the lens+Kenko setup to be different from the lens by itself in terms of AFMA. I haven't done any AFMA yet.

Dave

MASTERPPA · Apr 5, 2013

If it was marketing, the 1Dx would have had it from the start.

Birdman7 said:
Birdman7 wrote:

It was a marketing decision. Canon might have wanted to prevent canabilisaion of 1DX sales by adding AF @ F8 on the 5DX at the same time and deliberately restricted this feature to only that body. 1D series usually have this feature enabled but on 1DX was strangely omitted and later added via a firmware update, and even after the update many users were still finding they could still not AF.

Regarding the Kenko, Canon prob also decided to add the AF@ F8 to 5D, not only for the above reason, but also to increase sales of Canon own 1.4XIII extender, seeing that AF was possible with F5.6 lenses & Kenko extenders, especially with nature photographers and particularly bird photographers like myself.

--
Bird Photograhy / digiscoping workshops & birdwatching in Spain / Morocco www.aviantours.net

RedFox88 · Apr 5, 2013

BillyGoatGruff said:
BillyGoatGruff wrote:

So, the new firmware update this April will give us autofocus (center cross-type points) at f/8. This update begs the question....

No, I don't think it will be cross type at the center, but a standard AF point. Keep in mind it'll be at f/8. Not sure if it'll be an H or V sensitivity.

BillyGoatGruff said:
Why was this feature not available upon the camera’s release last year?

Is it a feature that they’re creating by sort-of ‘jury-rigging’ the hardware to do things it wasn’t originally designed to do?

They probably could not get it to work with the reliability that is need to be in standard camera firmware. Just like all the extra video controls that weren't launched with the 5D2 but came out a few to several months later.

BillyGoatGruff said:
Or was it a feature that Canon deliberately prevented the camera from doing until now, for fiscal reasons?

That's your speculation and only Canon would know. All R&D costs money.

BillyGoatGruff said:
Canon’s original explanation for not having autofocus at f/8 was the assertion that the autofocus system was more geared toward superior focusing in good lighting conditions using fast(er) lenses, and that they had to make a trade-off giving up autofocus at smaller apertures. This software update renders this claim by Canon untrue, I would think.

Again that's your claim and speculation. f/8 is not much light and can take effort to get things to work with precision. No one wants a feature that won't work all or most of the time. That would make the manufacturer look bad.

RedFox88 · Apr 5, 2013

Birdman7 said:
Birdman7 wrote:

It was a marketing decision. Canon might have wanted to prevent canabilisaion of 1DX sales by adding AF @ F8 on the 5DX at the same time and deliberately restricted this feature to only that body.

What's the 5DX? And it couldn't "cannibalize" sales when the 1D X wasn't launched with f/8 focusing.

Birdman7 said:
1D series usually have this feature enabled but on 1DX was strangely omitted and later added via a firmware update

Which blows a hole in our theory from above.

AlanYWM · Apr 7, 2013

We will never know the real reason for the initial lack of AF at f8. But there are a few certainties. Autofocus at f8 was already available with 1D Mk4. So this is not like something totally new. If marketing had nothing to do with it, then why the 5-6 months delay in releasing the firmware for the 5D Mk3? Surely if AF at f8 function could be "activated" in the 1DX via firmware upgrade alone, then I just do not understand why there is a delay for the 5D Mk3.

I see a lot of similarities between this firmware upgrade for the 1DX & 5D Mk3 and the recent one for the 7D. If you recall, with only a firmware upgrade, the buffer of the 7D increased from 15 raw images to 25 raw images. Could this be possible without changing the memory chip of the 7D? Perhaps that capability was already in the 7D and Canon deliberately crippled that function.

Oly Canikon · Apr 7, 2013

In what way does it "beg the question" which implies a circular reasoning.

5D Mark III firmware update, AF at f/8 begs the question...

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