10D and Softness a word from Canon...

Indeed. Nonetheless, some very jekyll and hyde features are
included - direct print being a somewhat odd feature in a DSLR, and
a fair chunk of functionality has been implemented for that one -
Certainly wouldn't be a feature I'd miss :)
Me either. My guess is that Canon is trying to broaden the appeal and market with these features. Although I have used direct print a couple of times, it was for sheer novelty.
I'm not aware of print driver image sharpening - wouldn't surprise
me though. However, I concede that there is a sharpening gain in
printing due to the effective reduction in size of the image in
print, versus that on screen. 2.6x in my case (19", 1600x1200,
printing at 300ppi)
You are generally accurate about the relative improvement in sharpness due to the smaller size, but there are many other factors as well. Michael Reichman has a nice discussion on print sharpness ( http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/sharpness.shtml ). Also, Norman Koren has a tutorial which addresses measured sharpness ( http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF3.html )

Finally, I would refer you to information about PIM ( http://www.printimagematching.com/faq.php )
I think it is an issue of conservatism, that does not account for
differing output mediums. Onscreen sharpness should be the
ultimate target. The current state of the art isn't quite there
yet at this level, even if consumer expectations are :)
You are accurate in that the technology hasn't reached the level of expectations. Recognize that most of the time we are dealing with sensors smaller than 35mm film, enlarging them way beyond anticipated size, and using equipment (lenses) which were designed for a different medium.
Actually, I believe your comments reflect a common reluctance to
adapt to a new technology :) Sharpness on the monitor IS
important, more so than in print because of the inherent sharpness
gain in moving to a print process. If it's sharp onscreen, it will
be sharp in print. It doesn't necessarily follow in the reverse
scenario though. Personally, I print barely a few % of images
that I shoot digitally. In fact that's the primary reason I shoot
digitally, so that I DON'T have to print everything out. Thus
onscreen sharpness, for me, and for many other users is important.
The fact that the camera might struggle to meet those expectations
doesn't negate the requirement.

Out of interest, on what basis of knowledge are you making the
assumption that I've yet to start taking pictures? These kind of
comments, particularly seen on this forum strike me as arrogant,
though I doubt that was your inherent intention, and I may just be
reading your response in a way that you never intended. FWIW I've
been taking pictures for 25 years+ :)
Actually, I have embraced the technology head on. Display sharpness is important and no one will negate that. However, the state of the art just isn't quite there. Most users (myself included) are still producing/selling traditional prints. Thus, the relative sharpness requirements are a bit less. In an odd way, this discussion reminds me of the comparison between slide/print films and their display properties.

About the comment "start taking pictures..." was not directed specifically at you and I apologize if you thought so. I am a bit dismayed over the number of threads claiming that 10D images are horribly soft, it front focuses, it back focuses, etc. What are the comparative benchmarks? Did your Elan front/rear focus by a cm? How many people actually tested their film bodies (I did, but then again I am a bit compulsive) taking pictures of rulers, targets, etc?. In the final analysis, photography is about many things; enjoyment, telling a story, an art, a business, or even a hobby. Sitting in a room obsessively measuring a ruler is IMHO a collosal waste of time.
Simon
--
See profile for my credit card legacy...
 
So who's advocating soft pictures? Gee, my D60 produces sharper images than the 10D, does that mean it is a better camera?

Look, I would love to own a 1DS, but my checking account is a little light. Since, you pro's have all of the $, would you care to float me a few so I could share in the enjoyment? BTW, the 10D is NOT a pro camera.
  • Ken -
wrote:

Regarding your first question, whay does Canon make a camera that
produces intentionaly soft images? It is my understanding that the
digital image captured by the sensors in digital cameras is soft.
The camera manufacturer decides how much they want the camera to
sharpen the image when coverting it into a useable computer file.
Canon rightly or wrongly assumes that most photographers want an
image that allows for the maximum post processing flexibility. I
like this approach my self.
It would have been trivial for them to offer stronger sharpening
options in-camera if they wished though. That would have fitted
your workflow well, as well as those wishing for minimal post
processing. I want control like you, but I cannot for the life of
me see why Canon didn't provide the option in camera.
1) It may not have been a trivial issue. Recognize that on board
memory is precious. Camera makers always have to make compromises
between costs/features/etc. Rather than offering 10 levels of
sharpening, perhaps they chose to write algorithms for WB
bracketing or some other feature? Additionally, they may have
intentionally avoided adding on significant sharpening because
memory limitations precluded implementing sophisticated (read good
result) algorithms.
Regarding your second questions, why doesn't Canon provide in
camera settings that duplicate Velvia. I have no idea, but again
prefer to make my own decisions about the color saturation of an
image. I really like the natural looking color of the 10D images,
very refreshing. If I want it to look like Velvia, then I make it
look that way in Photoshop.
I don't disagree, but it still surprises me that the in-camera
settings don't offer a broader range of control.
2) See 1 above.
Maybe Canon, if they determine there is enough demand for highly
sharpened well saturated pictures, will add a new setting for this.
It would make sense, and wouldn't cost them anything, It would
cost the user in image size, but that's a user decision.
3) Again, see 1 above.
They must have judged that the market for the 10D were
photographers who would do post image processing in Photoshop as a
normal part of their workflow.
If that's the case, why all the direct print features? It's
completely redundant firmware on my camera.
These types of photographers in most
cases do not have a need for more sharpened or saturated images out
of the camera. I make these decisions as part of my normal workflow.
4) That is generally true. PIM works, for the most part. In fact,
most 10D images shot in .jpg on normal sharpening are adequate for
print output. Virtually every printer driver sharpens the image
slightly. Image sharpness on the monitor vs. print output are two
distinct entities. Preparing images for web display vs. print
requires different thresholds and parameters.
Tell me, of all the images you've taken with your camera, that are
destined for some kind of output medium (ie, your keepers), are
there ANY that have not required some degree of sharpening? Or has
the camera been able to satisfy you by applying the minimum
necessary on occasion? If every image needs at least some degree
of sharpening, then that would imply to me, that it could safely be
increased a little in camera. But even if that is a bad idea,
having say a 0 - 10 setting on the sharpness control would satisfy
everybody. (if 0 was no sharpening, 10 was eye-bleedingly on the
verge of halo sharpening).

I can't understand why they would be so conservative, and I don't
buy that it's an intended market issue, when they have the direct
print features in firmware. Just one man's opinion :)
5) Again, I don't think it is an issue of "conservatism". Most all
of the images shot in .jpg can be printed directly. I suggest
that you compare images printed from 35mm film next to images
captured in .jpg and printed with the default settings on the 10D -
you may be suprised. A discussion on "sharpness" is worthy, but
perhaps a bit to complicated to have in this venue. Additionally,
the more aggressive the AA filter, generally the more sharpening
that one will need.

A couple weeks ago, I brought in some 8x10's produced on a S9000
straight out of the 10D (.jpg, aRGB, default settings). People
were stunned with the quality, depth, color, and texture. A
frequent remark from all of those who own digi p&s' was "Gee, why
don't my pictures look this real?"

Stop worrying about the sharpness on the monitor at 100-200%; start
taking some pictures and print them out!
--
Andy C
 
Me either. My guess is that Canon is trying to broaden the appeal
and market with these features. Although I have used direct print
a couple of times, it was for sheer novelty.
I skipped that part of the manual :)
I'm not aware of print driver image sharpening - wouldn't surprise
me though. However, I concede that there is a sharpening gain in
printing due to the effective reduction in size of the image in
print, versus that on screen. 2.6x in my case (19", 1600x1200,
printing at 300ppi)
You are generally accurate about the relative improvement in
sharpness due to the smaller size, but there are many other factors
as well. Michael Reichman has a nice discussion on print sharpness
( http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/sharpness.shtml ).
Also, Norman Koren has a tutorial which addresses measured
sharpness ( http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF3.html )
Finally, I would refer you to information about PIM
( http://www.printimagematching.com/faq.php )
Will check out the links - have seen the lminous landscape stuff many times, but the others are new to me.
I think it is an issue of conservatism, that does not account for
differing output mediums. Onscreen sharpness should be the
ultimate target. The current state of the art isn't quite there
yet at this level, even if consumer expectations are :)
You are accurate in that the technology hasn't reached the level of
expectations. Recognize that most of the time we are dealing with
sensors smaller than 35mm film, enlarging them way beyond
anticipated size, and using equipment (lenses) which were designed
for a different medium.
Indeed. It's a problem that DSLR manufacturers I suspect, are struggling to address. The advent of photo printers for one, is suddenly allowing everyone, for very little absolute cost, print images at 10x8 and larger that they'd never have considered doing before. On screen - well, you are well versed in the enlargement effect.
Actually, I have embraced the technology head on. Display
sharpness is important and no one will negate that. However, the
state of the art just isn't quite there. Most users (myself
included) are still producing/selling traditional prints. Thus,
the relative sharpness requirements are a bit less. In an odd way,
this discussion reminds me of the comparison between slide/print
films and their display properties.
Digital display is the new slide transillumination presentational method - Despite it's "low-res" nature, the non-reflected nature of the lighting makes on-screen presentation more enjoyable. The high quality of today's computer monitors helps, and the ease in which images can be web hosted or emailed negates all the disadvantages of slides. It also opens up the number of people one can share images with. I can stick a photo on my wall, and it will be shared by my immediate family, stick it online, and it can be shared by thousands potentially. The opportunities for self-gratification are greater (and I don't deny that's what it is. That's what compels people to share their cat photos and so on - and who can blame them, it's not something they could ever do before).
About the comment "start taking pictures..." was not directed
specifically at you and I apologize if you thought so
No problems - I was just a bit prickly at some responses I had received on the Rob Galbraith forum that I felt were arrogant and unnecessary and I'm biting a bit too much :) There seems to be a lot of unwarranted user criticism (in general) that isn't always warranted. As an ex-Minoltan, I make the general observation that Canonians tend to be a very defensive breed! :)
I am a bit
dismayed over the number of threads claiming that 10D images are
horribly soft, it front focuses, it back focuses, etc. What are
the comparative benchmarks? Did your Elan front/rear focus by a
cm? How many people actually tested their film bodies (I did, but
then again I am a bit compulsive) taking pictures of rulers,
targets, etc?. In the final analysis, photography is about many
things; enjoyment, telling a story, an art, a business, or even a
hobby. Sitting in a room obsessively measuring a ruler is IMHO a
collosal waste of time.
I can but agree. I'm compulsive too inasmuch as I need to be sure things are 100% ticketyboo. But you are right, photography is rather more than that. I can't blame people for obsessing over their new purchases though. Next to a car, a DSLR system is the singlemost expensive consumer product that people are ever likely to buy. It's understandable for concern, caution, and obsessive evaluation to occur. It will pass I'm sure, as technology becomes better, more reliable and more consistent. I think that whilst we might not be on the bleeding edge any more, we are still suffering a few grazes :)

Simon
 
I have found that my shots with an external flash on 10D are
usually sharp. Also, pictures taken on a tripod are sharp. Sharper
than pictures taken handheld using the 1/f rule. This brings me to
the point, which has been covered by Mishkin in this forum in
another thread:

To obtain pixel-sharp images, use 1/(4*f ) rule instead of the
usual 1/f rule.

My experience correlates with that. Indeed, flash duration is very
short, so that's why these pictures are sharp, no blur at all.
Tripod pictures are also sharp, while handheld are not always as
sharp as I would like them to be.
Andrus
I agree 100%. As an example I took 50+ shots yesterday of my grandaughter which is like trying to hit a moving target with a bow and arrow. Needless to say, many of the pictures were soft to very soft due to being hand held and inside at slow shutter speeds. I took a couple with the internal flash and one of those was so sharp out of camera that you could see the hair in her nose and at 1 and 1/2 she doesn't really have any. My point is you are absolutly correct with your post. Either use a tripod or use the 1/(4*f) rule.

I use all normal settings and the correctly taken picture is so sharp when printed at 8X10, it's scary.

To conclude. Just like film, if you take the time to learn how to use the 10D correctly you will be one happy camper like I am with mine.

The 100% crop is below. Straight out of camera to PS7(ARC), cropped then saved for web.



Don
 
If you set the in camera sharpening to a different value ( say +2), does that then prevent USM in Photoshop Elements from working properly, like you say it does if the sharpening is built into the camera?
I really appreciate all of your inputs. I am learning a great deal
about slr photography, and I believe that consumer level cams like
sony do a pretty good job with sharpness, but the canon 10d lends
to versatility. I guess it's in my expectations.
 
Yes I'm a newbie, but love digital photography. I, too, have found
my new 10D's pictures soft, compared with my previous Sony F707. I
have found a great deal regarding this issue here.

Canon's Tech support site was very helpful, and suggested to me
several tips. I have a 70-200mm 2.8L zoom.

1. Remove any UV filters. (I use one for protection). Canon claimed
that the filters interfere with autofocus on this lens series
(2.8L). They are coated to protect for UV, so they don't need a
filter. (I find it difficult to leave a nice lens like that
"open")....
Buy you a Sigma Lens it helps.
My workflow in ps-unsharp mask is 60%, 4, 2
 
Just to confirm, the " " stands for "multiplied by"?

So, if I am using f1.8, then shutter speed should be at about 1/7.2 or 0.1389 seconds? Does this rule apply strictly to flash shots only, or would it apply to non-flash shots as well?
I have found that my shots with an external flash on 10D are
usually sharp. Also, pictures taken on a tripod are sharp. Sharper
than pictures taken handheld using the 1/f rule. This brings me to
the point, which has been covered by Mishkin in this forum in
another thread:

To obtain pixel-sharp images, use 1/(4*f ) rule instead of the
usual 1/f rule.

My experience correlates with that. Indeed, flash duration is very
short, so that's why these pictures are sharp, no blur at all.
Tripod pictures are also sharp, while handheld are not always as
sharp as I would like them to be.

The ultimate problem seems to be that people judge the shots at
high magnification (100%) on screen, rather than by how they look
when printed. Minor unsharpness raises heated discussions, while
you would probably have hard time noticing these "errors" on 4"x6"
prints.

Andrus
 
those that they felt were interested in doing their own processing.
After the D30, most coming to the D60 knew and expected them to be
'soft'--many of us had really wanted the D30, had read about it,
knew much about it---and our expectations were of doing our own
processing to arrive at the image we carried in our own minds--not
all for sure, but many of us.
If this were truly the case, and I don't believe it is, then a no
settings option would have been trivial to implement in firmware,
and more effective options could have been offered via parameters.

The 10D has brought in many who were
probably unaware of this--likely had not read a lot about these
cameras and came from a different perspective entirely. As I
remember, it was sort of the 'watchword' with the D30 and 60---turn
ALL your settings down to LOW and do your own processing. Most of
us would have been happy if there were no other settings than
'off'--but then I shoot in RAW and I do know that some want the
option to shoot in jpeg for snapshots that they don't want to
process much--but USM can be batch run and its easy to do.
Again, if this was truly their target market, they could have had
the camera generated jpegs that were more highly processed, or at
least offered the options to tweak more agressively in camera for
those modes. The firmware also offers quite extensive in-camera
cropping and direct printing abilities. If the camera was never
designed for straight to print output, why include such facilities
in there.

To a large degree I can buy and accept that a digital image may
need some sharpening due to conservative settings. The fact is,
even with parameter sharpness set to +2, all images still require
further sharpening. I don't know anyone able to use the images
straight from camera. That implies to me that they've been too
conservative. The settings in-camera should be able to adjust the
output images over a range from no sharpening, to production
quality. Implementing that would have satisfied everyone.

Simon
Simon,

I couldn't have said that any better myself! The parameter adjustments that are built-in to the camera should be able to satisty everyone... a MUCH wider range is needed.

JT
 
Just to confirm, the " " stands for "multiplied by"?

So, if I am using f1.8, then shutter speed should be at about 1/7.2
or 0.1389 seconds? Does this rule apply strictly to flash shots
only, or would it apply to non-flash shots as well?
f is focal lenght, not aperture.

Just use "focal lenght times 1.6" first. Then double that. See what happens. It all depends on subject and your abilities. I can take very sharp 200mm 1/40 shot handheld when I am calm and concentrated, but in hurry even 1/400 may be soft :)

Flash freezes subject only if there is more flash power than ambient light.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net
 
What would you recommend for shutter speed / apperture settings for flash shots (in-camera flash and external flash units) at night, and also for daytime fill flash?

Are most flash shots taken wide open?
Just to confirm, the " " stands for "multiplied by"?

So, if I am using f1.8, then shutter speed should be at about 1/7.2
or 0.1389 seconds? Does this rule apply strictly to flash shots
only, or would it apply to non-flash shots as well?
f is focal lenght, not aperture.

Just use "focal lenght times 1.6" first. Then double that. See what
happens. It all depends on subject and your abilities. I can take
very sharp 200mm 1/40 shot handheld when I am calm and
concentrated, but in hurry even 1/400 may be soft :)

Flash freezes subject only if there is more flash power than
ambient light.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net
 
I suppose if enough 10D users ***** about soft pictures to Canon, they may issue a fix in a firmware patch where the image parameters will be bumped up and down for more extremes in in-camera sharpening/settings.

I wonder if white balance control and blownout highlights can be fixed through firmware as well?
those that they felt were interested in doing their own processing.
After the D30, most coming to the D60 knew and expected them to be
'soft'--many of us had really wanted the D30, had read about it,
knew much about it---and our expectations were of doing our own
processing to arrive at the image we carried in our own minds--not
all for sure, but many of us.
If this were truly the case, and I don't believe it is, then a no
settings option would have been trivial to implement in firmware,
and more effective options could have been offered via parameters.

The 10D has brought in many who were
probably unaware of this--likely had not read a lot about these
cameras and came from a different perspective entirely. As I
remember, it was sort of the 'watchword' with the D30 and 60---turn
ALL your settings down to LOW and do your own processing. Most of
us would have been happy if there were no other settings than
'off'--but then I shoot in RAW and I do know that some want the
option to shoot in jpeg for snapshots that they don't want to
process much--but USM can be batch run and its easy to do.
Again, if this was truly their target market, they could have had
the camera generated jpegs that were more highly processed, or at
least offered the options to tweak more agressively in camera for
those modes. The firmware also offers quite extensive in-camera
cropping and direct printing abilities. If the camera was never
designed for straight to print output, why include such facilities
in there.

To a large degree I can buy and accept that a digital image may
need some sharpening due to conservative settings. The fact is,
even with parameter sharpness set to +2, all images still require
further sharpening. I don't know anyone able to use the images
straight from camera. That implies to me that they've been too
conservative. The settings in-camera should be able to adjust the
output images over a range from no sharpening, to production
quality. Implementing that would have satisfied everyone.

Simon
Simon,

I couldn't have said that any better myself! The parameter
adjustments that are built-in to the camera should be able to
satisty everyone... a MUCH wider range is needed.

JT
 
Are most flash shots taken wide open?
Just to confirm, the " " stands for "multiplied by"?

So, if I am using f1.8, then shutter speed should be at about 1/7.2
or 0.1389 seconds? Does this rule apply strictly to flash shots
only, or would it apply to non-flash shots as well?
f is focal lenght, not aperture.

Just use "focal lenght times 1.6" first. Then double that. See what
happens. It all depends on subject and your abilities. I can take
very sharp 200mm 1/40 shot handheld when I am calm and
concentrated, but in hurry even 1/400 may be soft :)

Flash freezes subject only if there is more flash power than
ambient light.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net
I'm not Pekka, but you should find the following helpful:
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/
--
Regards,
DaveMart

Please see profile for equipment
 
Dr. Doug,

I came from a point and shoot background. I agree (I think is is an
undeniable fact) that they are soft out of the camera. And I love
it that way. In my "workflow", I may take 100+ pictures (and I keep
95%) and print one. I am just looking for that exceptional
exposure. One of the great things about digital, as I could not do
that with film. I shoot all RAW (unless I am goofing around,
playing then I shoot HIQ JPG with SAT and SHARP and CONTRAST all
+2), so, when I get that one good one, into Photoshop I go (after
Capture One). There I tweak and sharpen and get it ready. I love
doing that. For examples, go to
http://www.pbase.com/mward/10d_test_pics and look at some "out of
the camera" pics and their "tweaked" counterparts. All pics taken
were with the 10D and 28-135 - all parameters set at 0.

Hope this helps.

--
Marc Ward
Milwaukee, WI
Canon 10D - 28 135 USM IS
Epson Stylus Photo 2200
PAYING PBASE SUPPORTER
My Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/mward
Some good, some bad. But all were fun to take.
--
Bill Richardson
Barrington, IL (USA)
Canon G3, 420EX, and PhotoShop 7
 
I have actually briefly scanned through the board before.

Its quite informative, but I do not think it actually quote specific values for shutter speed and apperture settings to use with a camera. From that, I am assuming that there is no specific "formula" to determine shutter/apperture speed for flash shots in differing situations, as the 1/f*4 rule that Pekka was recommending, as flash shots greatly vary depending on the situation and environment or am I way off base?
Are most flash shots taken wide open?
Just to confirm, the " " stands for "multiplied by"?

So, if I am using f1.8, then shutter speed should be at about 1/7.2
or 0.1389 seconds? Does this rule apply strictly to flash shots
only, or would it apply to non-flash shots as well?
f is focal lenght, not aperture.

Just use "focal lenght times 1.6" first. Then double that. See what
happens. It all depends on subject and your abilities. I can take
very sharp 200mm 1/40 shot handheld when I am calm and
concentrated, but in hurry even 1/400 may be soft :)

Flash freezes subject only if there is more flash power than
ambient light.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net
I'm not Pekka, but you should find the following helpful:
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/
--
Regards,
DaveMart

Please see profile for equipment
 
You think more pro photographers use Velvia than any other film? No way. Not even more than any other slide film, I'd venture to say.
Now say
what you will about preferring "natural color", Velvia is probably
the most highly used (by PRO's) slide film out there... for a
reason.
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
 
Nothing against you Douglas or your post but rather the majority of bickering forum members who will always find something to bark about......

Let it be known that I said this right now, for those of you who find fault in everything Canon does, switch now to the Fuji S2 since all I hear is that it is a much better camera!

Enough said!

TMT
 

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