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shame on you Nikon

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Leo360 said:
Leo360 wrote:

As someone who also deals with firmware updates I agree with pretty much everything in your post. That said, I see that nowadays Canon issues firmware updates more often than Nikon. A good system design should acknowledge the fact that firmware will be updated repeatedly throughout a product's lifetime and provision accordingly.
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I'm tired of excuses. Yep you have to work within physical realities and yep, some jobs are hard. But the pilot must ALWAYS land safely, the doctor must ALWAYS strive to improve the patient's health, the mechanic must ALWAYS strive to diagnose and fix that intermittent fault, the software developer must ALWAYS find and fix difficult bugs. Life ain't easy. I'm a software developer too (not firmware, but financial systems). I don't get to walk up to my boss and simply say "sorry boss, too hard" every time there's a challenge presented.

When you're selling cameras it's simple. If someone else makes a better, more reliable product you're going to lose sales.
 
Sammy Yousef said:
Sammy Yousef wrote:

When you're selling cameras it's simple. If someone else makes a better, more reliable product you're going to lose sales.
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We're OK then...I was worried for a sec.
 
Mako2011 said:
Mako2011 wrote:
Mako2011 said:
draacor wrote:

For not providing more regular updates to their firmware. One thing i would love to have is more than 3 bracketed shots available. This isn't something that is hardware dependent Give me 5 or better yet 9 bracketed shot ability.
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Not a firmware issue...it's a business decision and feature issue. Nikon rarely adds features in firmware updates. It would be counterproductive to the business model just as MacDonald s doesn't add more nuggets to the 10 nugget meal to make it look more like the 20 nugget meal.
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Mako, you are wrong about McD - they would chop those nuggets in thirds and add 2 more in a meal charging you 10% less, making you feel good about the whole deal. Of course, they would spend big on advertising so even those who dare to think get blinded....

As to OP - all firmware updates packed together are called "an upgrade model" .... and will still not have all what you are wishing for.
 
ZorSy said:
ZorSy wrote:
ZorSy said:
Mako2011 wrote:
ZorSy said:
draacor wrote:

For not providing more regular updates to their firmware. One thing i would love to have is more than 3 bracketed shots available. This isn't something that is hardware dependent Give me 5 or better yet 9 bracketed shot ability.
Click to expand...
Not a firmware issue...it's a business decision and feature issue. Nikon rarely adds features in firmware updates. It would be counterproductive to the business model just as MacDonald s doesn't add more nuggets to the 10 nugget meal to make it look more like the 20 nugget meal.
Click to expand...
Mako, you are wrong about McD - they would chop those nuggets in thirds and add 2 more in a meal charging you 10% less, making you feel good about the whole deal. Of course, they would spend big on advertising so even those who dare to think get blinded....
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Yep!!! Hadn't thought it through :)
 
Sammy Yousef said:
Sammy Yousef wrote:
Sammy Yousef said:
Leo360 wrote:

As someone who also deals with firmware updates I agree with pretty much everything in your post. That said, I see that nowadays Canon issues firmware updates more often than Nikon. A good system design should acknowledge the fact that firmware will be updated repeatedly throughout a product's lifetime and provision accordingly.
Click to expand...
I'm tired of excuses. Yep you have to work within physical realities and yep, some jobs are hard. But the pilot must ALWAYS land safely, the doctor must ALWAYS strive to improve the patient's health, the mechanic must ALWAYS strive to diagnose and fix that intermittent fault, the software developer must ALWAYS find and fix difficult bugs....
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Surely, bugs must always be fixed, so that the camera will work as intended (and advertised).

But I am not so sure about firmware feature improvements. When I buy a product (say a camera) I buy it for what it is, and NOT for what it may become after a few firmware upgrades.

The idea of buying a camera with base software and lots of "optional sftware extras" appeals to me, but I am not quite sure how realistic expecting this may be.
 
An idea: Why don't we poll the owners of the Canon 7d? Unless we feel that the business model of Canon of this issue is to dumb to consider?
 
Hey Sammy, don't give Nikon any ideas because some of the theoreticians who spout around these forums would happily accept a cheap camera and pay for 1000 shots up-front because for them a thousand clicks would last a lifetime.
And don't knock us old timers because it could be argued that we invented stuff that lasted a lifetime whereas today's sad generation (it seems to me) can't get beyond inventing throw-away goods, upgrades and obsolescence.
But I enjoyed your parallel universe story because this old timer was brought up on science fiction.
 
draacor said:
draacor wrote:

I wonder how upset people would be if say Microsoft would do the same tactic. What if in order to get a new version if IE you had to just buy it? To get any new features added to windows you just had to buy the next version of windows. I'm pretty sure people would be awfully outraged by that, but that's because we have been conditioned from the start to expect regular updates to the system and then every now and then upgrade to a new version by purchasing.
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No-one has yet explained to me why they they so desperately need upgrades, I could easily go back to using say, IE6, without my world coming to an end. I use upgrades not because I need them, but because they are available for free.
draacor said:
In fact I think cameras are the only device that comes to mind that uses software to control its primary functions that hardly ever comes out with improvements to it without buying a new model.
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Wrong. When did you last upgrade your software controlled washing machine. Or your kettle? Or any one of the dozens of software controlled micro-processors in your car? I bet you didn't and I also bet that you happily buy a new model whenever you want to 'upgrade'.
 
Peter Jonas said:
Peter Jonas wrote:
Peter Jonas said:
But I am not so sure about firmware feature improvements. When I buy a product (say a camera) I buy it for what it is, and NOT for what it may become after a few firmware upgrades.
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while I agree with that, I hate that they're crippled in the first place to differentiate price.

Sell all your cameras for $100 packed with features and don't have a "pro" model and I bet you more than break even in the end. What's more you get the reputation for having awesome gear that is very affordable.
Peter Jonas said:
The idea of buying a camera with base software and lots of "optional sftware extras" appeals to me, but I am not quite sure how realistic expecting this may be.
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Start by making it hackable (ala CHDK) and you won't even have to do a lot of the work.
 
Sammy Yousef said:
Sammy Yousef wrote:
Sammy Yousef said:
Peter Jonas wrote:
Sammy Yousef said:
But I am not so sure about firmware feature improvements. When I buy a product (say a camera) I buy it for what it is, and NOT for what it may become after a few firmware upgrades.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
while I agree with that, I hate that they're crippled in the first place to differentiate price.
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I don't see the lower end models as being crippled. On an entry level unit you cannot have everything the top pro models have, be it software or not.
Sammy Yousef said:
Sammy Yousef said:
The idea of buying a camera with base software and lots of "optional sftware extras" appeals to me, but I am not quite sure how realistic expecting this may be.
Click to expand...
Start by making it hackable (ala CHDK) and you won't even have to do a lot of the work.
Click to expand...
I am not a fan of hacking either. However, and open system could be useful.
 
Peter Jonas said:
Peter Jonas wrote:
Peter Jonas said:
Sammy Yousef wrote:
Peter Jonas said:
Peter Jonas wrote:
Peter Jonas said:
But I am not so sure about firmware feature improvements. When I buy a product (say a camera) I buy it for what it is, and NOT for what it may become after a few firmware upgrades.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
while I agree with that, I hate that they're crippled in the first place to differentiate price.
Click to expand...
I don't see the lower end models as being crippled. On an entry level unit you cannot have everything the top pro models have, be it software or not.
Peter Jonas said:
Peter Jonas said:
The idea of buying a camera with base software and lots of "optional sftware extras" appeals to me, but I am not quite sure how realistic expecting this may be.
Click to expand...
Start by making it hackable (ala CHDK) and you won't even have to do a lot of the work.
Click to expand...
I am not a fan of hacking either. However, and open system could be useful.
Click to expand...
By hacking I just meant software programmable/modifiable.


However yes CHDK is also a hack - one that I have no issue using, but I'd MUCH rather use a supported system (even on an "at your own risk" understanding).
 
draacor said:
draacor wrote:

For not providing more regular updates to their firmware. One thing i would love to have is more than 3 bracketed shots available. This isn't something that is hardware dependent Give me 5 or better yet 9 bracketed shot ability. It feels like as soon as they release a camera they come out with maybe one firmware update that is basically useless anyway, and then that's it for the life of the camera. Then they expect you to just buy a new camera even though your current camera is more than capable of doing some of the functions of the newer one with a simple software update.
Click to expand...
 
draacor said:
draacor wrote:

For not providing more regular updates to their firmware. One thing i would love to have is more than 3 bracketed shots available. This isn't something that is hardware dependent Give me 5 or better yet 9 bracketed shot ability. It feels like as soon as they release a camera they come out with maybe one firmware update that is basically useless anyway, and then that's it for the life of the camera. Then they expect you to just buy a new camera even though your current camera is more than capable of doing some of the functions of the newer one with a simple software update.
Click to expand...
 
It's funny how angry people are to what I said about offering maybe a DLC business model. Lets be honest this really doesn't hurt anyone. It only helps the consumer with the ability to make more choices. I'm not asking for a frickin miracle here, or a D4 in a D7000 body, all i want was more than 3 bracketed shots for petes sake haha. My point is if you had hardware that you know is fully capable of performing a function but the software isnt available (MAC users you know what I am talking about) then you get frustrated because yes there is a market there but no one wants to tap it.

And for people that say companies don't offer free upgrades. Look at the Iphone. Don't get me wrong they don't upgrade forever, but my wife's Iphone 4 has the 6.0 OS. Apple allowed them to upgrade with over 200 new features, some big, some small, and some just to replace others. But it was free.

I'm just saying I want to be able to do just a couple of features that I cant and instead of shelling out another 1300 for just those features it would be awesome if Nikon would offer it as a DLC.
 
draacor said:
draacor wrote:

It's funny how angry people are to what I said about offering maybe a DLC business model.
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I see a lot of text...not a lot of actual anger.
draacor said:
Lets be honest this really doesn't hurt anyone. It only helps the consumer with the ability to make more choices.
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Lets really be honest. You don't know if that is true and have no evidence one way or the other. What is nice for the consumer in the short term may not be good for him in the long term. More choices now might lead to only 2 models in the future. You and I just don't know. Many companies going under these days.
draacor said:
I'm not asking for a frickin miracle here, or a D4 in a D7000 body, all i want was more than 3 bracketed shots for petes sake haha.
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Then get a different body...you have many choices right now. You could even tether your body right now to an android phone and get your more than 3 bracketed shots. You simply seem to want more with out paying for it. That's understandable.
draacor said:
My point is if you had hardware that you know is fully capable of performing a function but the software isnt available (MAC users you know what I am talking about) then you get frustrated because yes there is a market there but no one wants to tap it.
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Been tapped. Make a choice to buy into it.
draacor said:
And for people that say companies don't offer free upgrades. Look at the Iphone. Don't get me wrong they don't upgrade forever, but my wife's Iphone 4 has the 6.0 OS. Apple allowed them to upgrade with over 200 new features, some big, some small, and some just to replace others. But it was free.
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Apples to Oranges...just because the thing you want exists in one analogy...in others it does not. Doesn't make your argument a universal right/positive. Creative Labs never adopted the iPhone 4 strategy with their Zen MP3 Player. Not a big bother to me.
draacor said:
I'm just saying I want to be able to do just a couple of features that I cant and instead of shelling out another 1300 for just those features it would be awesome if Nikon would offer it as a DLC.
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You want...things to be more like other things. We get that. Not everyone agrees, and that is OK also. BTW, that used to be called the "a certain members Syndrome"...don't get too wrapped up as it leads to for fewer pictures actually taken. The "crippled camera" posts can really eat into ones shooting time. He would make long "crippled features" and "add in firmware" posts in literally hundreds and hundreds of posts in any thread he could find. Long strings just like this one. It really took a huge toll on his shooting and led to no new features added in firmware. Better to ask if a UV filter is needed :)
 
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for not offering a sensor replacement upgrade service. I did not want all the other doodads the D7000 got, just a shiny new sensor. But, no. Nikon had to go change the af system, the metering, the storage, even the size and shape of the body so my D90 can no longer be found buried inside the new camera. It is just not there. How hard could it be to give my D90 a sensor lift? Not hard at all. NIkon has literally eliminated the lateral move from my D90. Sink or swim. Go up or go down. Is that fair? Ok. I might need a new processor, too. But, that is all I want. Nikon, can't you hear me?
 
draacor said:
draacor wrote:
see i think its that way because people come to expect it not necessarily because that's how it should be. Look at video games, i can buy a 50 dollar video game that basically gets regular updates and improvements for at least a year down the road if not more. But i buy a 1300 dollar camera and gets almost no updates to it even tho its possible. Reason being is people are conditioned to accept that that's the way it is instead of questioning this practice.
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I think the reason is that Nikon (and the other mfrs) are not software companies. They aren't familiar with a model that includes ongoing development and support, nor do they price that way. There's also the contentious issue of model differentiation.

An alternate approach would be to implement firmware and publish specs allowing 3rd party developers to come up with their own firmware tweaks or replacements.

- Dennis
 
antoineb said:
antoineb wrote:

I don't think Nikon read these forums much.
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I actually think you are wrong here, both manufacturers and retailers actively read sites like these, not to do so would be doing business in the stone age.

My place of work has marketing and engineering staff to collect field reported issues on such forums and get them addressed. Otherwise the only point of customer feedback would be RMA returns to point of sale and warranty claims.
 
I think that it's the economy of it, that determines why no one is walking on the moon. There are several individuals / companies that are working to further lunar exploration. To bring this back around, if competitors are providing new and expanded features, then everyone will have to adapt to that new expectation from the market.

I often say that difficulty is not a valid business reason for not doing a project. Budget however is a valid reason.
 
Mako2011 said:
You want...things to be more like other things. We get that. Not everyone agrees, and that is OK also. BTW, that used to be called the "a certain members Syndrome"...don't get too wrapped up as it leads to for fewer pictures actually taken. The "crippled camera" posts can really eat into ones shooting time. He would make long "crippled features" and "add in firmware" posts in literally hundreds and hundreds of posts in any thread he could find. Long strings just like this one. It really took a huge toll on his shooting and led to no new features added in firmware. Better to ask if a UV filter is needed :)
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Lol, Mako. Sure cost me a few shooting hours :^)

Draacor, use the dial once in +-2 bracket mode, three clicks down (6 exp total) for extreme conditions, you don't need the way overexposed shots.
 
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