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shame on you Nikon

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draacor said:
draacor wrote:
draacor said:
Mako2011 wrote:
Click to expand...
how many people upgrade to the next model because of a couple of software updates?
Click to expand...
Many in fact. Watch Graig's List for D7000 in the next few weeks prior to D7100 release.



draacor said:
I would say a very select few. Most people probably upgrade to the next model because of hardware differences not software. I really dont think this would harm their bottom line in one bit.
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You don't think so but you do not know. Adding features would most likely hurt sales...by how much? Who knows. Again, it's a balancing act. I think they only did that once (with the D70 if I remember). Maybe that caused them to learn something.


Sony keeps adding features to their lower end models...and their Camera division is bleeding profit like a stuck pig.
 
draacor said:
draacor wrote:
If we never question a companies business practice we would never have the choices we have today. Im pretty sure I am not alone in this want to make my D7000 better and offer more features that it is fully capable of handling.
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Exactly! And why we will soon have a D7100 and Maybe a D800 someday. You are defiantly not alone...but you may still not be right regards long term innovation and consumer positives. After all, when you add in inflation...we are getting way more capability now than we did in the past for less money!
 
draacor said:
draacor wrote:

I wonder how upset people would be if say Microsoft would do the same tactic. What if in order to get a new version if IE you had to just buy it?
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...


draacor said:
To get any new features added to windows you just had to buy the next version of windows. ...
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THAT is how Microsoft makes money, all of Microsoft's product is "just" software... so that in-itself is completely counter to your point.

My 6 year old computer can technically do everything today's computer does, why do I have to buy a new one to get Windows 8....

But on a more serious note, this does leave open the door for software as a service on cameras, I think being able to buy firmware features for your serial model is an interesting proposition, certainly a possibility for cameras that start running full blown operating systems like android
 
You actually got nfpotter to join this whining post. I actually thought the lack of firmware updates for my D90 (except the minor distortion one) was a sign of how well made it is. I was going to send a thank you note to Nikon now I have to sign a petition and march somewhere probably in Japan.
 
Mako2011 said:
Mako2011 wrote:
Mako2011 said:
draacor wrote:
Mako2011 said:
Mako2011 wrote:
Mako2011 said:
draacor wrote:

For not providing more regular updates to their firmware. One thing i would love to have is more than 3 bracketed shots available. This isn't something that is hardware dependent Give me 5 or better yet 9 bracketed shot ability.
Click to expand...
Not a firmware issue...it's a business decision and feature issue. Nikon rarely adds features in firmware updates. It would be counterproductive to the business model just as MacDonald s doesn't add more nuggets to the 10 nugget meal to make it look more like the 20 nugget meal.
Click to expand...
see i think its that way because people come to expect it not necessarily because that's how it should be. Look at video games, i can buy a 50 dollar video game that basically gets regular updates and improvements for at least a year down the road if not more.
Click to expand...
Today the norm is increasingly you buy the game, a short one, then have to pay more for DLC (down Loadable Content).
Click to expand...
A hugely profitable model that is completely ignored by Nikon and the other camera manufacturers.



Mako2011 said:
Mako2011 said:
But i buy a 1300 dollar camera and gets almost no updates to it even tho its possible. Reason being is people are conditioned to accept that that's the way it is instead of questioning this practice.
Click to expand...
They always fix bugs with updates for free when they get fixed. Expecting free DLC for your camera to make it more like the higher priced model is like expecting Chevy to add 2 cylinders to your V6 to upgraded it to the V8 model for free. :) Chevy would soon go under...I think they did once :)
Click to expand...
Actually, this could possibly be a very nice revenue stream for Nikon. Everyone has specific wants and needs with their camera's feature set but are reluctant to pay for the features that they don't use....human nature. However, if Nikon (or other camera manufacturers) offered DLC features at an upgrade price point it would benefit both parties. The user (presumably a HDR fan) would be able to upgrade his bracketing options if desired. Even a nominal DLC fee would be hugely profitable once the system was in place. There are plenty of non hardware functions that could be included on such a list; bracketing, flash commander mode, flash high speed sync, in camera HDR mode....etc. Would a D3200 user be willing to pay an extra $100 to gain access to commander mode? I think at least a few would....I would. I know I wouldn't be particularly interested in bracketing as I rarely use it on my current camera. The benefit to Nikon would be the ability to offer competitively priced entry level cameras such as the D3200 or D5200 but still have the ability to attract extra revenue for DLC. I would like a new small travel camera to replace my D40 but the entry level cameras are just too crippled for my needs. This would solve a lot of problems in Nikon's current schizophrenic camera line up.
 
eddyshoots said:
eddyshoots wrote:
eddyshoots said:
Mako2011 wrote:
eddyshoots said:
draacor wrote:
eddyshoots said:
Mako2011 wrote:
eddyshoots said:
draacor wrote:

For not providing more regular updates to their firmware. One thing i would love to have is more than 3 bracketed shots available. This isn't something that is hardware dependent Give me 5 or better yet 9 bracketed shot ability.
Click to expand...
Not a firmware issue...it's a business decision and feature issue. Nikon rarely adds features in firmware updates. It would be counterproductive to the business model just as MacDonald s doesn't add more nuggets to the 10 nugget meal to make it look more like the 20 nugget meal.
Click to expand...
see i think its that way because people come to expect it not necessarily because that's how it should be. Look at video games, i can buy a 50 dollar video game that basically gets regular updates and improvements for at least a year down the road if not more.
Click to expand...
Today the norm is increasingly you buy the game, a short one, then have to pay more for DLC (down Loadable Content).
Click to expand...
A hugely profitable model that is completely ignored by Nikon and the other camera manufacturers.
eddyshoots said:
eddyshoots said:
But i buy a 1300 dollar camera and gets almost no updates to it even tho its possible. Reason being is people are conditioned to accept that that's the way it is instead of questioning this practice.
Click to expand...
They always fix bugs with updates for free when they get fixed. Expecting free DLC for your camera to make it more like the higher priced model is like expecting Chevy to add 2 cylinders to your V6 to upgraded it to the V8 model for free. :) Chevy would soon go under...I think they did once :)
Click to expand...
Actually, this could possibly be a very nice revenue stream for Nikon. Everyone has specific wants and needs with their camera's feature set but are reluctant to pay for the features that they don't use....human nature. However, if Nikon (or other camera manufacturers) offered DLC features at an upgrade price point it would benefit both parties. The user (presumably a HDR fan) would be able to upgrade his bracketing options if desired. Even a nominal DLC fee would be hugely profitable once the system was in place. There are plenty of non hardware functions that could be included on such a list; bracketing, flash commander mode, flash high speed sync, in camera HDR mode....etc. Would a D3200 user be willing to pay an extra $100 to gain access to commander mode? I think at least a few would....I would. I know I wouldn't be particularly interested in bracketing as I rarely use it on my current camera. The benefit to Nikon would be the ability to offer competitively priced entry level cameras such as the D3200 or D5200 but still have the ability to attract extra revenue for DLC. I would like a new small travel camera to replace my D40 but the entry level cameras are just too crippled for my needs. This would solve a lot of problems in Nikon's current schizophrenic camera line up.
Click to expand...
 
eddyshoots said:
eddyshoots wrote:
eddyshoots said:
Mako2011 wrote:
eddyshoots said:
draacor wrote:
eddyshoots said:
Mako2011 wrote:
eddyshoots said:
draacor wrote:

For not providing more regular updates to their firmware. One thing i would love to have is more than 3 bracketed shots available. This isn't something that is hardware dependent Give me 5 or better yet 9 bracketed shot ability.
Click to expand...
Not a firmware issue...it's a business decision and feature issue. Nikon rarely adds features in firmware updates. It would be counterproductive to the business model just as MacDonald s doesn't add more nuggets to the 10 nugget meal to make it look more like the 20 nugget meal.
Click to expand...
see i think its that way because people come to expect it not necessarily because that's how it should be. Look at video games, i can buy a 50 dollar video game that basically gets regular updates and improvements for at least a year down the road if not more.
Click to expand...
Today the norm is increasingly you buy the game, a short one, then have to pay more for DLC (down Loadable Content).
Click to expand...
A hugely profitable model that is completely ignored by Nikon and the other camera manufacturers.
eddyshoots said:
eddyshoots said:
But i buy a 1300 dollar camera and gets almost no updates to it even tho its possible. Reason being is people are conditioned to accept that that's the way it is instead of questioning this practice.
Click to expand...
They always fix bugs with updates for free when they get fixed. Expecting free DLC for your camera to make it more like the higher priced model is like expecting Chevy to add 2 cylinders to your V6 to upgraded it to the V8 model for free. :) Chevy would soon go under...I think they did once :)
Click to expand...
Actually, this could possibly be a very nice revenue stream for Nikon. Everyone has specific wants and needs with their camera's feature set but are reluctant to pay for the features that they don't use....human nature. However, if Nikon (or other camera manufacturers) offered DLC features at an upgrade price point it would benefit both parties. The user (presumably a HDR fan) would be able to upgrade his bracketing options if desired. Even a nominal DLC fee would be hugely profitable once the system was in place. There are plenty of non hardware functions that could be included on such a list; bracketing, flash commander mode, flash high speed sync, in camera HDR mode....etc. Would a D3200 user be willing to pay an extra $100 to gain access to commander mode? I think at least a few would....I would. I know I wouldn't be particularly interested in bracketing as I rarely use it on my current camera. The benefit to Nikon would be the ability to offer competitively priced entry level cameras such as the D3200 or D5200 but still have the ability to attract extra revenue for DLC. I would like a new small travel camera to replace my D40 but the entry level cameras are just too crippled for my needs. This would solve a lot of problems in Nikon's current schizophrenic camera line up.
Click to expand...
 
Reilly Diefenbach said:
Reilly Diefenbach wrote:
Reilly Diefenbach said:
Actually, this could possibly be a very nice revenue stream for Nikon. Everyone has specific wants and needs with their camera's feature set but are reluctant to pay for the features that they don't use....human nature. However, if Nikon (or other camera manufacturers) offered DLC features at an upgrade price point it would benefit both parties. The user (presumably a HDR fan) would be able to upgrade his bracketing options if desired. Even a nominal DLC fee would be hugely profitable once the system was in place. There are plenty of non hardware functions that could be included on such a list; bracketing, flash commander mode, flash high speed sync, in camera HDR mode....etc. Would a D3200 user be willing to pay an extra $100 to gain access to commander mode? I think at least a few would....I would. I know I wouldn't be particularly interested in bracketing as I rarely use it on my current camera. The benefit to Nikon would be the ability to offer competitively priced entry level cameras such as the D3200 or D5200 but still have the ability to attract extra revenue for DLC. I would like a new small travel camera to replace my D40 but the entry level cameras are just too crippled for my needs. This would solve a lot of problems in Nikon's current schizophrenic camera line up.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
draacor said:
draacor wrote:
What they need to do is open up the firmware to open source so users can have a go at it and update their cameras at their leisure.
Click to expand...
I can imagine all the people complaining about how bad Nikon cameras are and never mention they used some firmware created by someone else. And yeah, I'm sure if they would release the firmware and no other manufacturer would look at it O.o
 
draacor said:
draacor wrote:
draacor said:
My camera should not be classified as completely obsolete in just a year and a half because nikon just wont update their software.
Click to expand...
how many people upgrade to the next model because of a couple of software updates? i would say a very select few.
Click to expand...
So which is it?

If this "software update" makes the camera completely obsolete, why do so few people seem to worry about it? :)
 
As someone who's job is partially associated with firmware updates for consumer electronics, I would just like to say that updating firmware of any type is a nightmare.

Any change must be tested and retested in any number of ways. If an error is found it's a code change, and the test process restarts. The risks here are huge for a device like a camera, many people rely on the device to make a living. The backlash for a single mistake may not be worth the risk.

Firmware is generally limited to the physical memory set aside during design. Expanding that software is generally a function of finding ways to cut down the code required to provide the basic feature set offered when the product was delivered, then testing to make sure those changes didn't break anything. To add a new feature it must fit within the memory space allowed, provide new functionality without any physical change to the device, and again not break anything.

Then comes delivery of the new firmware. How does the update work? How difficult is the upgrade process for the casual user? What happens if power is lost during an update? How many calls will this update generate to customer service? What part of the customer base will actually get the new firmware? How many will be aware of the new features?

Firmware updates are a massive time sync, and a big risk. If the reward is not significant it is more worthwhile to have the engineers working on another part of the product line. The first questions asked are: Can we sell more of the product based on the new feature? Will this change reduce the money we spend on customer support?

Game consoles, and PC components, Smartphones and Tablets are designed with updates in mind. The marketplace the live in requires that they have the ability to adapt to changing needs. That flexibility doesn't exist in the camera market yet, I'm not sure it needs to.
 
Reilly Diefenbach said:
Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Is it really that much more trouble to haul around a D90/7000?
Click to expand...
As a general answer, no. But on occasion there are indeed times when I'd like the lighter smaller body. Next week I'm taking a family vacation to Florida's gulf coast with a short excursion to an Orlando theme park. Additionally, my wife wants a nice family portrait done while we are there. Now I have to make some decisions. I'd like to bring a small body, a zoom, an external flash and a small tripod. My camera body choices are a D40 or my D300....significant size differences. I'd like to bring my SB600 and use if off camera (I like holding the flash in my left hand when on the run) but I can't control the flash with the D40 (D40 has no commander and the SB600 has no SU4 mode) soooo now I'm bringing more gear or larger gear (SC-29, SB800 or D300).

Is it a major dilemma? No. But it's a dilemma brought about by Nikon's insistence on tying functionality to size. The physical stuff I can live with....robust build vs plasticky feel, larger guide number on flashes, faster mirror mechanism....etc. These things need to be built into the cameras. But the software driven stuff should be upgradable for sure.

There are lots of camera / functionality combinations that just don't work right now. It's not for me, but some of the macro guys really like the swivel screen....what if they also want flash commander mode? Or like the OP, wanting a small body with extended bracketing features. Mountain climbers, extreme hikers, or even seniors all have reasons to want small bodies and may actually want a decent feature set to go with that small camera.
 
amesenbrink said:
amesenbrink wrote:

As someone who's job is partially associated with firmware updates for consumer electronics, I would just like to say that updating firmware of any type is a nightmare.

Any change must be tested and retested in any number of ways. If an error is found it's a code change, and the test process restarts. The risks here are huge for a device like a camera, many people rely on the device to make a living. The backlash for a single mistake may not be worth the risk.

Firmware is generally limited to the physical memory set aside during design. Expanding that software is generally a function of finding ways to cut down the code required to provide the basic feature set offered when the product was delivered, then testing to make sure those changes didn't break anything. To add a new feature it must fit within the memory space allowed, provide new functionality without any physical change to the device, and again not break anything.

Then comes delivery of the new firmware. How does the update work? How difficult is the upgrade process for the casual user? What happens if power is lost during an update? How many calls will this update generate to customer service? What part of the customer base will actually get the new firmware? How many will be aware of the new features?

Firmware updates are a massive time sync, and a big risk. If the reward is not significant it is more worthwhile to have the engineers working on another part of the product line. The first questions asked are: Can we sell more of the product based on the new feature? Will this change reduce the money we spend on customer support?

Game consoles, and PC components, Smartphones and Tablets are designed with updates in mind. The marketplace the live in requires that they have the ability to adapt to changing needs. That flexibility doesn't exist in the camera market yet, I'm not sure it needs to.
Click to expand...
Thank you, very informative
 
eddyshoots said:
eddyshoots wrote:
eddyshoots said:
Mako2011 wrote:

Today the norm is increasingly you buy the game, a short one, then have to pay more for DLC (down Loadable Content).
Click to expand...
A hugely profitable model that is completely ignored by Nikon and the other camera manufacturers.
Click to expand...
An idiotic model that burns your customer base and trades long term profitability for short term profit.

One possible future...not the only one: One day some manufacturer is going to make a camera that requires you to pay to unlock the next 1000 shots or so. Fee will start off small and get ridiculous. Old timers that don't burst shoot will say it's perfectly reasonable and shout everyone who shoots differently down as "pray and sprayers". Meanwhile this will slowly kill the camera market altogether as "low end" phone camera manufacturers won't all adopt the model. Pro cameras will no longer be affordable by enthusiasts. If things go this way a lot of the "big name" camera manufacturers will eventually fall.
 
Mako2011 said:
Mako2011 wrote:
Mako2011 said:
amesenbrink wrote:

As someone who's job is partially associated with firmware updates for consumer electronics, I would just like to say that updating firmware of any type is a nightmare.

Any change must be tested and retested in any number of ways. If an error is found it's a code change, and the test process restarts. The risks here are huge for a device like a camera, many people rely on the device to make a living. The backlash for a single mistake may not be worth the risk.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Yeah it's thinking like that which means we're no longer walking on the moon. We collectively get the future we deserve.
 
Sammy Yousef said:
Sammy Yousef wrote:
Sammy Yousef said:
eddyshoots wrote:
Sammy Yousef said:
Mako2011 wrote:

Today the norm is increasingly you buy the game, a short one, then have to pay more for DLC (down Loadable Content).
Click to expand...
A hugely profitable model that is completely ignored by Nikon and the other camera manufacturers.
Click to expand...
An idiotic model that burns your customer base and trades long term profitability for short term profit.

One possible future...not the only one: One day some manufacturer is going to make a camera that requires you to pay to unlock the next 1000 shots or so. Fee will start off small and get ridiculous. Old timers that don't burst shoot will say it's perfectly reasonable and shout everyone who shoots differently down as "pray and sprayers". Meanwhile this will slowly kill the camera market altogether as "low end" phone camera manufacturers won't all adopt the model. Pro cameras will no longer be affordable by enthusiasts. If things go this way a lot of the "big name" camera manufacturers will eventually fall.
Click to expand...
Even as I wrote my DLC suggestion I was pondering how it might be abused by Nikon. I didn't come close you your nightmare scenario. You should write horror screen plays.
 
amesenbrink said:
amesenbrink wrote:

As someone who's job is partially associated with firmware updates for consumer electronics, I would just like to say that updating firmware of any type is a nightmare.

Any change must be tested and retested in any number of ways. If an error is found it's a code change, and the test process restarts. The risks here are huge for a device like a camera, many people rely on the device to make a living. The backlash for a single mistake may not be worth the risk.

Firmware is generally limited to the physical memory set aside during design. Expanding that software is generally a function of finding ways to cut down the code required to provide the basic feature set offered when the product was delivered, then testing to make sure those changes didn't break anything. To add a new feature it must fit within the memory space allowed, provide new functionality without any physical change to the device, and again not break anything.

Then comes delivery of the new firmware. How does the update work? How difficult is the upgrade process for the casual user? What happens if power is lost during an update? How many calls will this update generate to customer service? What part of the customer base will actually get the new firmware? How many will be aware of the new features?

Firmware updates are a massive time sync, and a big risk. If the reward is not significant it is more worthwhile to have the engineers working on another part of the product line. The first questions asked are: Can we sell more of the product based on the new feature? Will this change reduce the money we spend on customer support?

Game consoles, and PC components, Smartphones and Tablets are designed with updates in mind. The marketplace the live in requires that they have the ability to adapt to changing needs. That flexibility doesn't exist in the camera market yet, I'm not sure it needs to.
Click to expand...
As someone who also deals with firmware updates I agree with pretty much everything in your post. That said, I see that nowadays Canon issues firmware updates more often than Nikon. A good system design should acknowledge the fact that firmware will be updated repeatedly throughout a product's lifetime and provision accordingly.

Leo
 
I think that draacor is on to something. It had not occurred to me that this was easily achievable in S/W. If it is, then this is a great way to build customer loyalty and enthusiasm. Every good connection they make with a user enhances the likelihood that the customer will stick with them.

I do know that nothing that involves changing S/W, particularly operational software with a large installed base, is as simple as it seems to the outsider. So it is not without significant cost to Nikon to make such a change. But I think it is a great idea.

Minor feature creep! Lets have some!
 
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