They are clearly both "serious" cameras being at the top of Fuji's and Olympus lineup. But I might be missing what you mean here ;D
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Need Advice. OMD EM5 or X-E1 as FIRST SERIOUS CAMERA to learn Photography?
- Thread starter DR5ZEE
- Start date
1. Ergonomics could be frustrating but in my experience most people like the E-M5. Maybe I am just picky but still I recommend that you try for yourself. Check if following things matter to you:
- fiddly Fn1, Play, Display buttons
- shutter position not perfectly comfortable
- Thumb wheel not where the thumb is
- Reaching out for the thumb wheel might accidentally press the arrow keys
- power on/off in the most arkward position
- overall grip and hand position (try optional handgrip as well)
- If you wear glasses try operating the thumb wheel with eye on the EVF
- eye sensor switches to EVF often when the touch display is used flipped up
- If you think of using the 7-14 be aware of purple flare (ok no ergonomics but something to consider)
2. ISO vs IBIS is no simple matter. Depends on what you want to do and which lenses you use. Obviously if the lens has a stabilizer like all zooms will have on the fuji then IBIS does not matter but better ISO do. With non-stabilized primes it is a different matter. The Fuji gains about one ISO stop over the E-M5 but here the IBIS kicks in. So for static subjects the IBIS will help (quite some) more. For moving subjects it is the other way around. Then there is the question of when and how better ISO would improve an image. Up to ISO 1600 I feel the difference really does not matter for practical use. Above the difference gets more pronounced in vavour of the Fuji. I still believe that the image itself is more important than a bit of technical quality difference but that is up to you. Another point is that IBIS helps to get keepers even at daylight by stabilizing your hasty or from the hip shots as well. With a tilt screen an IBIS can be more helpful than you think. And last point is DOF. The Fuji gets the 23mm 1.4. This is really the one case where I might prefer the Fuji for DOF control over the Olympus 17mm 1.8 with IBIS. But if maximum aperture is the same I would rate the IBIS more important. So all said if the apertures are similar I personally would prefer the IBIS. So absolutely consider your lens choice when choosing the system.
3. From ISO 3200 the Fuji clearly delivers clearer images. Below I honestly do not care too much.
4. Keep in mind the Fuji has its quirks and issues as well. To me it is the viewfinder (lagging and smearing), the missing tilt/touchdisplay (really useful), especially the AF. It is not perfect on the ergonomics side as well.
In summary I think the E-M5 is at the moment the better allrounder. Quick, easy, higher flexibility, more reliable. The Fuji can do some impressive things above ISO 1600 (if the AF does not get in your way) and handles nicely. DOF advantage at same aperture is about 2/3 apertures. Well, guess that's it.
- fiddly Fn1, Play, Display buttons
- shutter position not perfectly comfortable
- Thumb wheel not where the thumb is
- Reaching out for the thumb wheel might accidentally press the arrow keys
- power on/off in the most arkward position
- overall grip and hand position (try optional handgrip as well)
- If you wear glasses try operating the thumb wheel with eye on the EVF
- eye sensor switches to EVF often when the touch display is used flipped up
- If you think of using the 7-14 be aware of purple flare (ok no ergonomics but something to consider)
2. ISO vs IBIS is no simple matter. Depends on what you want to do and which lenses you use. Obviously if the lens has a stabilizer like all zooms will have on the fuji then IBIS does not matter but better ISO do. With non-stabilized primes it is a different matter. The Fuji gains about one ISO stop over the E-M5 but here the IBIS kicks in. So for static subjects the IBIS will help (quite some) more. For moving subjects it is the other way around. Then there is the question of when and how better ISO would improve an image. Up to ISO 1600 I feel the difference really does not matter for practical use. Above the difference gets more pronounced in vavour of the Fuji. I still believe that the image itself is more important than a bit of technical quality difference but that is up to you. Another point is that IBIS helps to get keepers even at daylight by stabilizing your hasty or from the hip shots as well. With a tilt screen an IBIS can be more helpful than you think. And last point is DOF. The Fuji gets the 23mm 1.4. This is really the one case where I might prefer the Fuji for DOF control over the Olympus 17mm 1.8 with IBIS. But if maximum aperture is the same I would rate the IBIS more important. So all said if the apertures are similar I personally would prefer the IBIS. So absolutely consider your lens choice when choosing the system.
3. From ISO 3200 the Fuji clearly delivers clearer images. Below I honestly do not care too much.
4. Keep in mind the Fuji has its quirks and issues as well. To me it is the viewfinder (lagging and smearing), the missing tilt/touchdisplay (really useful), especially the AF. It is not perfect on the ergonomics side as well.
In summary I think the E-M5 is at the moment the better allrounder. Quick, easy, higher flexibility, more reliable. The Fuji can do some impressive things above ISO 1600 (if the AF does not get in your way) and handles nicely. DOF advantage at same aperture is about 2/3 apertures. Well, guess that's it.
I guess I'm not patient enough to read through 100+ responses on this but -
To the OP:
1. All the popular camera magazines (Pop Photo, Shutterbug, American Photo) report that the actual pictures from the sensor in that and similar Fuji X cameras are not very good. They summarize by saying that, if you can fiddle the controls to produce a 6mp image, then those are acceptable as snapshots. I understand that the Fuji X cameras are very snazzy but aren't the actual pictures the reason you are doing photography?
2. Why should you buy a camera because it will make you work harder? Sounds like you are a hobbyist and you are supposed to be having fun with this hobby. Leave this 'work harder' stuff to us old-timers who rationalize how wonderful it was to shoot in available darkness with manual film equipment, squint through non-illuminated finders, soup the negatives in a witch's brew, and then come up with a barely discernible image.
3. I'd opt for the OM-D, mostly because of all the negatives (pun intended) about the Fujis.
To the OP:
1. All the popular camera magazines (Pop Photo, Shutterbug, American Photo) report that the actual pictures from the sensor in that and similar Fuji X cameras are not very good. They summarize by saying that, if you can fiddle the controls to produce a 6mp image, then those are acceptable as snapshots. I understand that the Fuji X cameras are very snazzy but aren't the actual pictures the reason you are doing photography?
2. Why should you buy a camera because it will make you work harder? Sounds like you are a hobbyist and you are supposed to be having fun with this hobby. Leave this 'work harder' stuff to us old-timers who rationalize how wonderful it was to shoot in available darkness with manual film equipment, squint through non-illuminated finders, soup the negatives in a witch's brew, and then come up with a barely discernible image.
3. I'd opt for the OM-D, mostly because of all the negatives (pun intended) about the Fujis.
Because it won't allow him to add any lens in the future without buying a new body too
He said he was starting with one single lens, not that he would stay there.
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G
Greynerd
Guest
Neither of these cameras will make you a better photographer. They will just let you get away with being a bad photographer more than a cheaper model which in reality will be counter productive.
Making the best of a 'crap' lens like the 12-50 might in fact be more educational. From most of what I have read this lens seems reasonable for its price and weather sealing.
Making the best of a 'crap' lens like the 12-50 might in fact be more educational. From most of what I have read this lens seems reasonable for its price and weather sealing.
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tedolf
Forum Pro
tedolf
Forum Pro
how can you still say buying an OM-d for a beginner is a good idea?
Tedolph
Anders W
Forum Pro
While I think it is perfectly all right to advice the OP and others to check these things for themselves to see whether they are bothered, I personally find them to be not bothersome at all or only marginally so. See my comments on your individual points below.
Both of these buttons are a bit harder to reach/press with the camera at the eye than some other buttons, yes. For this reason, I have the functions I use more frequently with the camera at that position assigned to the two buttons on top (Fn2 and Rec) or further down (arrow pad). My Fn1 button is used for switching between AF and MF, which I rarely do with the camera at my eye, and I never use the play/display button with the camera in that position.
I find the position perfectly comfortable.
Depends on whether you prefer to keep the thumb on the thumb wheel on not. If you prefer to keep it on the "grip" slightly further down to the right, the distance your thumb has to move to reach the wheel is truly marginal.
Hasn't happened to me yet.
I hardly ever use that switch with the camera held at my eye. Why should I? In other circumstances, I don't find it hard to reach or operate at all.
This is a problem only if you want/need to hold the camera with one hand only for extended periods of time or with a very heavy lens mounted. I have no desire or need to do either. For those who think differently, there are a variety of optional grips available as you point out.
I wear glasses, and have no trouble operating the thumb wheel with the camera held to my eye. Those who find it problematic might be helped by the fact that the "thumb wheel" can alternatively be conveniently operated by your index finger, just as the front wheel.
Don't know what to think of that since (for other reasons) I operate the camera with the eye sensor turned off.
Although I am very well aware of that problem (I have taken part in some efforts here to pinpoint the problem and the circumstances under which it arises) I have, during the seven months I have used my 7-14 on the E-M5 only run into the problem spontaneously on two occasions (two scenes out of hundreds shot). In both cases, it was pretty easy to eliminate in PP (though I am not saying that this is always the case).
When you say the Fuji delivers "clearer" images above ISO 3200, are you talking about OOC jpegs only (in which case I wouldn't take issue with your claim although I haven't seriously tried to see what the E-M5 OOC jpegs are really good for if I try to tweak the parameters maximally to my taste) or are you talking about the best quality you can get out of a RAW converter (in which case I no longer agree)? For those who prefer to shoot RAW, as I do, I'd say the E-M5 can deliver about as good or better quality across the entire ISO range. In this case, the Fuji has difficulties delivering as much detail, including chroma detail, due to its non-Bayer CFA and the difficulties the RAW converters have with the alternative CFA used by Fuji. If you disagree, please show me the best evidence to the contrary that you can think of.
Stan Powers
Senior Member
Neither. A Maserati won't make you a better driver, either.
Almost any camera on the market today is Serious enough to produce great art.
My 2¢: Get a $300 Panasonic G3 with the 14-42 kit zoom (or $250 G3 body w/ 20mm pancake if you wish to affect a purist stance).
Learn the art. Develop your eye. Once your tools limit you, get better tools.
--
Too Much Gear - Too Litte Time!
I think that the Panasonic G5 gives many of the advantages you mention for the Fuji while retaining some of the ones you associate with the Oly. For most practical purposes (the exception being some very contrasty and ultra-lowlight situations) its image quality will be indistinguishable from the EM5.
The panny G5 is quick, balances well with the panny 25mm lens, and is an excellent "serious" camera to learn on. I own a Panny G5 and an Oly EPL5 (which has the same sensor / image quality as the EM5), and I see no difference in image quality for most shooting situations. And when I do see it, it is only when I pixel peep to try to find a difference. The most obvious differences in quality between the EM5/EPL5 and the Panny G5 out of camera is that chromatic aberration sometimes appears in the Oly photos while it is fixed in-camera by the G5, and the default colors are different, the Oly producing more Kodacolor/Kodachrome type colors, while the G5 produces more Ektachrome/Fujichrome style colors (arguably more natural, but less "beautiful"). The CA from the EM5 can easily be fixed in post-processing, but it is still something to fix.
Another plus of the G5 is that it's very reasonably priced, leaving more $$$ for an additional lens.
The panny G5 is quick, balances well with the panny 25mm lens, and is an excellent "serious" camera to learn on. I own a Panny G5 and an Oly EPL5 (which has the same sensor / image quality as the EM5), and I see no difference in image quality for most shooting situations. And when I do see it, it is only when I pixel peep to try to find a difference. The most obvious differences in quality between the EM5/EPL5 and the Panny G5 out of camera is that chromatic aberration sometimes appears in the Oly photos while it is fixed in-camera by the G5, and the default colors are different, the Oly producing more Kodacolor/Kodachrome type colors, while the G5 produces more Ektachrome/Fujichrome style colors (arguably more natural, but less "beautiful"). The CA from the EM5 can easily be fixed in post-processing, but it is still something to fix.
Another plus of the G5 is that it's very reasonably priced, leaving more $$$ for an additional lens.
Anders W
Forum Pro
What do you mean by "still"? It sounds like he is learning a lot by being confronted with the many options offered by a camera like the E-M5.
In the meantime, he enjoys a number of advantages that your proposed alternative (E-PL2) cannot match (far better sensor, better IBIS, built-in EVF, better OLED with touch control, dual-control wheels, weather sealing, better video etc, etc) that it doesn't take any great photographic skills to take advantage of.
Yes, the E-M5 is a feature-rich camera and although I have 40 years of experience (including some periods of time where I fully or partly made a living from photography), it took me about half a year to get acquainted with all of those features that I might want to use (there are some I am not interested in). But did this prevent me from taking good pictures from day one? Not at all. The camera works well out of the box and the many features can be digested piece-meal, when you have the time to explore them.
tedolf
Forum Pro
about how to operate an E-M5.
Not learning so much about photography.
He doesn't need a better sensor.
He needs to learn how to shoot at base ISO and read a scene and shoot to preserve highlights or shoot to preserve shadows and how to use the spot meter to do that.
He doesn't need 5 axis IBIS. He needs to learn how to hold a camera steady and squeeze the shutter release gently, and how to pan with a moving subject.
The VF-2 costs $200.00.
The VF-2 and E-pl2 together cost half of an E-M5.
He doesn't need the OLED if he has the VF-2
He doesn't need touch control.
He needs to learn to control DOF with a manual lens having an aperture ring so he can see DOF change in real time.
Doesn't need dual wheels.
The E-pl2 has a wheel on the back and the 50mm legacy lens has a wheel around the lens; there are your dual wheels.
weather sealing is a gimmick.
He needs a hat with a long brim.
Video on the E-pl2 is fine.
and doesn't add to the learning experience.
and a recent thread by a Canon dSLR user called it "an excersize in futility".
Look it up.
So why do you want to put the OP though this while he is trying to learn the basics of photography?
There is a reason why photo schools start students off with Pentax K1000s.
Well, clearly you are unique.
"when you have time to explore them".
When you are trying to train yourself to simultaneiously keep an eye on the background, not cut off any apendages, avoid false attachements, select an appropriate aperture for DOF and a shutter speed to avoid subject motion blur you are already task overloaded. You don't have, "time to expore" anything.
Just yesterday I was at a product demonstration shoot and took three OOF photo's of the CEO not realizing the camera was in continuous shooting mode and AF was on manual focus.
Why put a beginner in that situation unnecessarily?
Tedolph
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Tedolph,
I haven't always agreed with you, but your back-to-basics perspective on photography is a breath of fresh air across a landscape littered with lab-test and feature-ophilia. Thanks.
tedolf
Forum Pro
Anders W
Forum Pro
One of your mistakes is to think that the two are mutually exclusive. By becoming familar with the features a camera offers, you learn how to become a better photographer by mastering those features. That's not all you have to learn but certainly part of it.
Another of your mistakes is to think that the E-PL2 is much easier for a beginner to handle than the E-M5. It isn't. If you think so, let me know on what ground.
Who are you to tell? That's for him and his eyes to decide, not yours.
Why should he limit himself to shooting at base ISO? As a very young photographer, I found available-light photography with the fastest film around at that point (Tri-X) very interesting.
And in what way does learning to preserve highlights or shadows conflict with a sensor that allows you do to do both better at any ISO than you can with an E-PL2?
And why do you use a spot meter to do that when the live view highlight/shadow clipping warning provided by the E-M5 (and I think the E-PL2 as well) is more efficient most of the time?
He can learn to do that (if he needs to, his OP makes it clear that he is far less of a newbie that you seem to imagine) just as well with the more efficient IBIS of the E-M5 as with the less efficient IBIS of the E-PL2. He will just enjoy using still lower shutter speeds while doing it.
Yes, and that reduces the price difference considerably.
Sure. But the E-M5 gives you a whole lot extra for the money.
Are you saying that there aren't cases where the screen is superior to the EVF?
Although I am not much of a touch-screen user myself, I have no difficulties understanding that there are cases where the OLED and touch control beats what you can do without either.
Have you heard of the preview function?
Who are you to tell? I made do with a single wheel too, when there was nothing else to be had in MFT. But two dials is faster and more intuitive.
Only that in this case you have to take the camera from your eye (or spin the aperture ring to either end and count clicks) to know what aperture you have set. Furthermore, the MF lens won't let you know when you look at your images later on what aperture you actually used. Very bad for learning about "DoF control" I would say.
For those, like you, who never shoot in demanding conditions, that's the case yes.
Fine (by your standards) should not be confused with "better".
Another mistake of yours is that you apparently think that the learning experience cannot be combined with taking good pictures while you are learning.
Why should I bother to look up what some technically challenged Canon DSLR user said?
Part of it is what can nowadays be considered the basics of photography. The rest he can learn at the speed he sees fit.
Educational institutions are frequently behind the time. The only reason I can think of to start out with a Pentax K1000 today is that it is easier for the teacher to master.
That merely means that scenarios like the one you describe is not the proper time to explore them. It's a bad idea to try to learn everything at the same time.
And again, as the OP himself makes clear, the OP has quite a bit of experience with other cameras already so he might well be pretty good at the things you are talking about here.
I am not assuming that the OP is as technically challenged as you are.
tedolf
Forum Pro
is like Sysiphus pushing a rock up hill
Here we go:
The are. It is easier to walk, or to chew gum than it is to walk and chew gum.
This should be obvious.
Mastering camera features has nothing to do with learning the basics of photography, which can be learned without a camera at all (e.g. reading a book, attending a class).
The most inconsequential part.
It doesn't have a curves button that you can hit accidentially.
Who am I?
I am Tedolph.
Do we really need to go through that again?
Well, see above.
Because it isolates other problem related to shootig at higher ISO.
ISO 100-400 is fine.
The E-pl2 is fine in that range.
Becuase you have to pay more attention to it and learn to compensate for it.
Becuase if the sensor will not allow you to capture the entire DR of the scene, you use the spot meter to get the right exposure for either the hightlight or the shallow.
You know that so why are you asking that question?
You are not going to learn how to pan with a moving subject if you have five axis IBIS on.
It is an unnecessary complexity that adds other gremlin like problems that will confuse a begginer as it has confused more than a few in this Forum.
How so?
An E-pl2, kit lens and VF-2 is about $500.00.
An E-M5 with kit lens is about $1,400.00.
Which is detrimental to a begginer.
Yes, I am saying that.
Well, except for tripod work, the LCD is better there.
Example that is applicable to a begginer?
Nobody uses it.
With a manual lens you don't have a choise.
Also, DOF preview doesn't show you the DOF scale, etc. so you can't set the hyper-focal distance, zone focus, etc.
I already told you,
I am Tedolph.
That should be sufficient.
See below.
You count clicks.
Another good skill to learn
There are no conditions so demanding that a regular camera wont survive that also wouldn't preclude taking pictures anyway.
No one takes photo's in hard driving rain.
Fine is "good enough".
Good enough is good enough.
There, how do you like that tautology?
It can't.
Ask an educator.
You have to break down the tasks and learn them one by one.
Becuase you might learn something about other people rather than projecting your own experiences onto other people like the OP,.
Make no sense.
What do you mean?
Well, maybe we should put you in charge of photo schools since you think you know better than they do.
How many photography students have you trained?
What photography schools did you teach at?
Now we are getting somewhere.
I am taking him at his word.
He said he was a beginer, not me.
I certiantly hope not, otherwise he has a rough road ahead.I am not assuming that the OP is as technically challenged as you are.
Tedolph
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yellodog
Senior Member
Like a few people have said you have to feel the cameras in your hand to know which one is "your" camera. I for one was astonished at how big the X-E1 felt compared to the OMD (even though it's probably only a question of millimeters). The handling is the A-Z, all the subjective hearsay and dogma about IQ and relative AF speed should be taken with more than a pinch of salt...
harold1968
Senior Member
if you really want to learn the nuts and bolts, get a Leica M6 and cheap second hand 50mm or 35mm lens
seriously!
You'll be able to sell both for what you paid later in any event
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