Nikon Capture Color Management

I profiled my monitor with the Spyder and Optical software (a big difference, much brighter!).

I use Nikon Capture Editor (NC) for my RAW conversions. In the preferences, color management tab, must I choice my new Colorvision profile as the Monitor profile? …or am I double profiling the screen.

Please your comments.

-Hendrik-

Hendrik,

Je nieuwe profiel kiezen, die hen je tenslotte niet voor niets gemaakt!

mvg

Cees

Hendrik van der Veen said:

I profiled my monitor with the Spyder and Optical software (a big
difference, much brighter!).

I use Nikon Capture Editor (NC) for my RAW conversions. In the
preferences, color management tab, must I choice my new Colorvision
profile as the Monitor profile? …or am I double profiling the
screen.

Please your comments.

-Hendrik-

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/cees_dutch

Cees Verduin said:

Hendrik,

Je nieuwe profiel kiezen, die hen je tenslotte niet voor niets
gemaakt!

Click to expand...

No disrespect meant, but I would also like to learn from the response. I understand that this is a multi-national forum, but the primary language is english. Although, I must admit, Seeing so many people here that can communicate effectively in a language that is not native to them is very impressive.

Danke!

--
-mike

Sorry, for answering in Dutch,

I informed the dutch importer from the Colorvision stuff. He is my boss and was just here at home to have a coffee. I told him the question from Hendrik, his answer was:

"If you profiled your screen, then those set ups are indipendent the programm you are running, so there is no need the choose again for the profile you made, it's already running."

Hope this helps.

regards

Cees

Moon said:

Cees Verduin said:

Hendrik,

Je nieuwe profiel kiezen, die hen je tenslotte niet voor niets
gemaakt!

Click to expand...

No disrespect meant, but I would also like to learn from the
response. I understand that this is a multi-national forum, but the
primary language is english. Although, I must admit, Seeing so many
people here that can communicate effectively in a language that is
not native to them is very impressive.

Danke!

--
-mike

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/cees_dutch

Cees Verduin said:

"If you profiled your screen, then those set ups are indipendent
the programm you are running, so there is no need the choose again
for the profile you made, it's already running."

Click to expand...

That is confusing and I doubt it is the right answer. Choosing a monitor profile within a programm change the ouput what you are seeing, in spite you have profiled your monitor "separately". I guess you do need to set the same monitor profiles for Photoshop, as well Nikon Capture etc. So you have to choose the profile you did make with the spider within all programms you are using.

Till yet I don't use a profile made by a tool like Spyder, but do use a changed monitor profile by the Adobe gamma tool (within configuration window). The new corrected and saved profile I have to set within each individual programme to have a proper color setup and to have interchange of image-files.

--
Leon Obers

Leon Obers said:

That is confusing and I doubt it is the right answer.

Click to expand...

Actually it is, though the language and nomenclature may confuse some.

Member said:

Choosing a
monitor profile within a programm change the ouput what you are
seeing, in spite you have profiled your monitor "separately". I
guess you do need to set the same monitor profiles for Photoshop,
as well Nikon Capture etc. So you have to choose the profile you
did make with the spider within all programms you are using.

Click to expand...

No. You're confusing color spaces with profiles (that nomenclature thing). When you profile your monitor with the Spyder, it "installs" the profile data into the Windows (or Mac) color management system, which changes the outputs of your video card. If the software is installed correctly and you've profiled correctly, the drivers that do this are loaded at startup and the profile data is automatically run through the video driver. At this point, your monitor is producing "known values." In particular, the white point, brightness, contrast, and balance between the three color guns are tweaked to known values.

Color Space is simply telling your software what colors mean. A 75, 243, 137 RGB value is meaningless without some "calibration" of what the various values mean. AdobeRGB and sRGB are the common color spaces that we use, and software that is trying to make that 75, 243, 137 value into a color needs to know which one you used when you shot the image. In this particular case, since sRGB color space doesn't extend as far into the green (the 243 value), this would be important for the rendering of this value correctly.

So, in Photoshop, Capture, and your other software tools you use their color management tools to select the color space you have set in the camera.

Member said:

Till yet I don't use a profile made by a tool like Spyder, but do
use a changed monitor profile by the Adobe gamma tool (within
configuration window). The new corrected and saved profile I have
to set within each individual programme to have a proper color
setup and to have interchange of image-files.

Click to expand...

Again, no. Adobe Gamma loads at boot and should use the data you created to change the output of the video card automatically. Within the programs you'd select the color space you've selected in the camera.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D100, D1, D1h, & D1x and Fujifilm S2
http://www.bythom.com

I believe you Thom, but…

In NC you can choose the color space (which I set to Adobe RGB), but you can also set the monitor profile. Why is that? The profile, I created with the Spyder, is incorporated into Windows, therefore everything is calibrated. I think in PS, NC or whatever program there must be no additional active profile. (or you are double profiling).

Therefore, why can I choose a monitor profile and what do I have to choose now?

(Please can you name the profile, I forgot what the default profile is).

-Hendrik-

Thom Hogan said:

Leon Obers said:

That is confusing and I doubt it is the right answer.

Click to expand...

Actually it is, though the language and nomenclature may confuse some.

Thom Hogan said:

Choosing a
monitor profile within a programm change the ouput what you are
seeing, in spite you have profiled your monitor "separately". I
guess you do need to set the same monitor profiles for Photoshop,
as well Nikon Capture etc. So you have to choose the profile you
did make with the spider within all programms you are using.

Click to expand...

No. You're confusing color spaces with profiles (that nomenclature
thing). When you profile your monitor with the Spyder, it
"installs" the profile data into the Windows (or Mac) color
management system, which changes the outputs of your video card. If
the software is installed correctly and you've profiled correctly,
the drivers that do this are loaded at startup and the profile data
is automatically run through the video driver. At this point, your
monitor is producing "known values." In particular, the white
point, brightness, contrast, and balance between the three color
guns are tweaked to known values.

Color Space is simply telling your software what colors mean. A 75,
243, 137 RGB value is meaningless without some "calibration" of
what the various values mean. AdobeRGB and sRGB are the common
color spaces that we use, and software that is trying to make that
75, 243, 137 value into a color needs to know which one you used
when you shot the image. In this particular case, since sRGB color
space doesn't extend as far into the green (the 243 value), this
would be important for the rendering of this value correctly.

So, in Photoshop, Capture, and your other software tools you use
their color management tools to select the color space you have set
in the camera.

Thom Hogan said:

Till yet I don't use a profile made by a tool like Spyder, but do
use a changed monitor profile by the Adobe gamma tool (within
configuration window). The new corrected and saved profile I have
to set within each individual programme to have a proper color
setup and to have interchange of image-files.

Click to expand...

Again, no. Adobe Gamma loads at boot and should use the data you
created to change the output of the video card automatically.
Within the programs you'd select the color space you've selected in
the camera.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D100, D1, D1h, & D1x and
Fujifilm S2
http://www.bythom.com

Click to expand...

Thom Hogan said:

Thom Hogan said:

Choosing a
monitor profile within a programm change the ouput what you are
seeing, in spite you have profiled your monitor "separately". I
guess you do need to set the same monitor profiles for Photoshop,
as well Nikon Capture etc. So you have to choose the profile you
did make with the spider within all programms you are using.

Click to expand...

No. You're confusing color spaces with profiles (that nomenclature
thing).

Click to expand...

No, different things.

Thom Hogan said:

When you profile your monitor with the Spyder, it
"installs" the profile data into the Windows (or Mac) color
management system, which changes the outputs of your video card

Click to expand...

Okay, as for comparison within Photoshop the monitor profile has to be set with the Adobe gamma tool found at Windows configuration window (I am using OS Windows 2000).

Within Nikon Capture (v3.5), I have to set monitor profile under "preferences" --> tab "color management" --> upper line "Monitor profile". (The second line is the color-space --> I am using Adobe 1998).

I guess, when you are using a Spyder profile as made for your system, and let say you have called that profile "Spyder", that same named profile you have to set at Nikon Capture (v3.5), within the tab "color management" upper line.

In a comparable way I tweaked the monitor profile by using the Adobe gamma tool and saved it with a unique name. That same profile I choose within the "color management" tab of Nikon Capture, upper line.
Do I miss something??

--
Leon Obers

Leon Obers said:

I guess, when you are using a Spyder profile as made for your
system, and let say you have called that profile "Spyder", that
same named profile you have to set at Nikon Capture (v3.5), within
the tab "color management" upper line.
In a comparable way I tweaked the monitor profile by using the
Adobe gamma tool and saved it with a unique name. That same profile
I choose within the "color management" tab of Nikon Capture, upper
line.
Do I miss something??

Click to expand...

My feeling says your double profiling, but what is the correct profile to select?

Member said:

Within Nikon Capture (v3.5), I have to set monitor profile under
"preferences" --> tab "color management" --> upper line "Monitor
profile". (The second line is the color-space --> I am using Adobe
1998).

I guess, when you are using a Spyder profile as made for your
system, and let say you have called that profile "Spyder", that
same named profile you have to set at Nikon Capture (v3.5), within
the tab "color management" upper line.
In a comparable way I tweaked the monitor profile by using the
Adobe gamma tool and saved it with a unique name. That same profile
I choose within the "color management" tab of Nikon Capture, upper
line.
Do I miss something??

Click to expand...

You are quite right. See Appendix B in Nikon Capture 3 Manual. It reads: "The first step is to match the Nikon Capture 3 monitior profile with that used in Adobe Photoshop. The point to remember is that you you should specify the monitor profile for Adobe Photoshop first and then select the same profile for Nikon Capture 3."

You are correct. I did some additional searching on different forums.

The profile created by the Spyder or another method calibrator must be the default monitor profile in windows. This profile is automatically selected in PS (you can check this by looking in the 'Color settings - working spaces'. After the text 'Monitor RGB’ is the name of the profile created by the Spyder'. If there is another profile, you have a problem. It's important not to select this profile as the working space. Adobe RGB is a better choice.

In Nikon Capture, the monitor profile created by the Spyder must be selected. The working profile is Adobe RGB (or something else if you want).

Thank you all for the comment!

Kind regards,

Hendrik

Iliah Borg said:

Iliah Borg said:

Within Nikon Capture (v3.5), I have to set monitor profile under
"preferences" --> tab "color management" --> upper line "Monitor
profile". (The second line is the color-space --> I am using Adobe
1998).

I guess, when you are using a Spyder profile as made for your
system, and let say you have called that profile "Spyder", that
same named profile you have to set at Nikon Capture (v3.5), within
the tab "color management" upper line.
In a comparable way I tweaked the monitor profile by using the
Adobe gamma tool and saved it with a unique name. That same profile
I choose within the "color management" tab of Nikon Capture, upper
line.
Do I miss something??

Click to expand...

You are quite right. See Appendix B in Nikon Capture 3 Manual. It
reads: "The first step is to match the Nikon Capture 3 monitior
profile with that used in Adobe Photoshop. The point to remember is
that you you should specify the monitor profile for Adobe Photoshop
first and then select the same profile for Nikon Capture 3."

Click to expand...

Hendrik van der Veen said:

I profiled my monitor with the Spyder and Optical software (a big
difference, much brighter!).

I use Nikon Capture Editor (NC) for my RAW conversions. In the
preferences, color management tab, must I choice my new Colorvision
profile as the Monitor profile? …or am I double profiling the
screen.

Please your comments.

-Hendrik-

Click to expand...

Do this to show yourself what is going on. Go into Photoshop and select View> Proof Setup> Monitor RGB. Now select View> Proof Setup> Custom, and have a look in the profile list – it will show you your monitor profile currently selected as monitor RGB. Photoshop automatically selects your current monitor profile from Window> system32> spool> etc, etc. when you launch PS. (You can also see this in the Colour Settings dialogue box under working space if you select monitor RGB.)

When you soft proof with monitor RGB, it shows you what your image will look like on your computer and monitor when you are not in a colour aware program. Try it for yourself. Open an image in say, ACDSee (which is not colour aware) and in PS, and arrange the two images side by side on screen. Now toggle the image in PS between RGB and monitor RGB using Cntrl+Y. You should have an exact colour and gamma match when you are soft proofing in PS. Now have a look at what your image will look like on a Mac – frighteningly washed out, hey?

In Nikon Capture, you must tell NC where to find your monitor profile – it doesn’t seem to be able to find it for itself, like PS does. You must set this to your Colorvision spyder profile icc file: otherwise your colour will be off in NC. Again try it for yourself. I tried it using my measured monitor profile, and using a stupid setting like ProPhotoRGB as my monitor profile. ProPhoto RGB is a very wide colour space, and looks very uncolourful when opened in an uncalibrated, non-colour aware viewer. The results are shown below. The picture at left is the correct interpretation, and the on eat right is the one viewed in NC with ProPhotoRGB set as my monitor profile.

NC is a bit clunky for this type of testing. It not only needs to be told where your monitor profile is, it also has to be restarted each time you change your profile settings. Compare that to PS, where you have a preview button in all the dialogue boxes which deal with colour profiles (and everything else for that matter).



[By the way: not my photo.]
--
Alabaster

Hendrik van der Veen said:

The profile created by the Spyder or another method calibrator must
be the default monitor profile in windows. This profile is
automatically selected in PS (you can check this by looking in the
'Color settings - working spaces'. After the text 'Monitor RGB’ is
the name of the profile created by the Spyder'. If there is another
profile, you have a problem. It's important not to select this
profile as the working space. Adobe RGB is a better choice.

In Nikon Capture, the monitor profile created by the Spyder must be
selected. The working profile is Adobe RGB (or something else if
you want).

Click to expand...

Okay, I understand what you're asking now. Yes, in non-aware applications, of which Capture is one, you may have to also set the monitor profile there to your calibration. But be extremely careful that you apply the right thing in the right place. As this discussion indicated, there is a difference between profiles of a device and a color space, even though naming conventions and wordings in dialog boxes may lead you to think otherwise.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D100, D1, D1h, & D1x and Fujifilm S2
http://www.bythom.com

...is a 'simple' document who explains in simple (english) terms :

if you use sRGB (mode I):
then in PS you set your working space in this...
set in NC this an that at that place
and (after restarting) you get this ...

if you use aRGB (mode II):
then in PS you set your working space in this...
set in NC this an that at that place
and (after restarting) you get this ...

with nice screendumps, so that it's clear and understandable for everyone !

Explanations à la Thom Hogan (Hi Thom) is surely true, but not very PRACTICAL...

Not everyone has a Spyder, or whatever calibration tool,

so it should also be clear that if you this or that, you have to install the selfmaded profile in the right spot for the concerned software, be it Photoshop (6 or 7), NC3, ACDSee or others...

Who can create such a document ?

Come on, who tries ?

Dominique Provost said:

...is a 'simple' document who explains in simple (english) terms :

if you use sRGB (mode I):
then in PS you set your working space in this...
set in NC this an that at that place
and (after restarting) you get this ...

if you use aRGB (mode II):
then in PS you set your working space in this...
set in NC this an that at that place
and (after restarting) you get this ...

with nice screendumps, so that it's clear and understandable for
everyone !

Explanations à la Thom Hogan (Hi Thom) is surely true, but not very
PRACTICAL...

Not everyone has a Spyder, or whatever calibration tool,
so it should also be clear that if you this or that, you have to
install the selfmaded profile in the right spot for the concerned
software, be it Photoshop (6 or 7), NC3, ACDSee or others...

Who can create such a document ?

Come on, who tries ?

Click to expand...

Not sure what you're after. I think Hendrik has answered his question for himself. You do have to set your monitor profile in NC3, if you have made one. Here is a screen dump of miner:



I'd also like to take up a small point with Thom. NC is a colour aware program as you can see from this dialogue box. It understands monitor profiles, it uses embedded colour profiles in image files when you open them, and it allows you to select printer profiles. It's way ahead of ACDSee (and similar), but way behind PS.
--
Alabaster

Thom
This is confusing me, please correct me, I need to know better.

if the new profile doesn't load with "adobe gamma loader" at the startup, for some reason it's not reconized or perheps the loader is disabled at startup (where the screen doens't change or flick when windows starts) then you need to specify the monitor profile in all applications (with photoshop either select the profile or go for default which is the same result)

but if Adobe gamma loader is giving the effect of the that profile & I can see that the screen whent bit brighter, so it applied the profile allready, I uncheck the tick to composate the monitor in PS & cancell the monitor profile in all other applications, coze I'm doubling the effect of the profile.

You see some profiles don't get loaded with adobe gamma loader, but some do, specially the one made with adobe gamma utility.

Now Thom, I'm not giving a lecture here, I'm just telling you what I do, & PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. & this applies to ALL you guys not only to Thom

Dave

Thom Hogan said:

Hendrik van der Veen said:

The profile created by the Spyder or another method calibrator must
be the default monitor profile in windows. This profile is
automatically selected in PS (you can check this by looking in the
'Color settings - working spaces'. After the text 'Monitor RGB’ is
the name of the profile created by the Spyder'. If there is another
profile, you have a problem. It's important not to select this
profile as the working space. Adobe RGB is a better choice.

In Nikon Capture, the monitor profile created by the Spyder must be
selected. The working profile is Adobe RGB (or something else if
you want).

Click to expand...

Okay, I understand what you're asking now. Yes, in non-aware
applications, of which Capture is one, you may have to also set the
monitor profile there to your calibration. But be extremely careful
that you apply the right thing in the right place. As this
discussion indicated, there is a difference between profiles of a
device and a color space, even though naming conventions and
wordings in dialog boxes may lead you to think otherwise.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D100, D1, D1h, & D1x and
Fujifilm S2
http://www.bythom.com

Click to expand...

I'm afraid this approach is from PS 5 times.

Monitor profile is essential in PS 6&7, as well as in NC almost all the time. It's primary task is to render "precise" conversion from the file color space to monitor color space. Pretty rare exclusions are when the file is already in monitor color space, or has no known color space at all.

Great informative thread folks, I never knew NC3 didn't actualy use the default monitor profile.

Here's another question regarding colour and profiles-if ya don't mind?

I work in adobe rgb, from camera to capture nc3 and then PS. Before sending to print do I need to embed sRGB profile before my files are printed on a sRGB machine, what would prints that went through with the adobe profile look like? Desaturated by about 25%?

if this is correct it may explain a recently dull set of printed images.

Thanks for your help

jim

alabaster said:

Dominique Provost said:

...is a 'simple' document who explains in simple (english) terms :

if you use sRGB (mode I):
then in PS you set your working space in this...
set in NC this an that at that place
and (after restarting) you get this ...

if you use aRGB (mode II):
then in PS you set your working space in this...
set in NC this an that at that place
and (after restarting) you get this ...

with nice screendumps, so that it's clear and understandable for
everyone !

Explanations à la Thom Hogan (Hi Thom) is surely true, but not very
PRACTICAL...

Not everyone has a Spyder, or whatever calibration tool,
so it should also be clear that if you this or that, you have to
install the selfmaded profile in the right spot for the concerned
software, be it Photoshop (6 or 7), NC3, ACDSee or others...

Who can create such a document ?

Come on, who tries ?

Click to expand...

Not sure what you're after. I think Hendrik has answered his
question for himself. You do have to set your monitor profile in
NC3, if you have made one. Here is a screen dump of miner:



I'd also like to take up a small point with Thom. NC is a colour
aware program as you can see from this dialogue box. It understands
monitor profiles, it uses embedded colour profiles in image files
when you open them, and it allows you to select printer profiles.
It's way ahead of ACDSee (and similar), but way behind PS.
--
Alabaster

Click to expand...

Dominique Provost said:

...is a 'simple' document who explains in simple (english) terms :
with nice screendumps, so that it's clear and understandable for
everyone !

Click to expand...

Well, I just went back and reworked the color management section of the D100 book so that it'll be more understandable in the next edition. But...

Dominique Provost said:

Explanations à la Thom Hogan (Hi Thom) is surely true, but not very
PRACTICAL...

Not everyone has a Spyder, or whatever calibration tool,
so it should also be clear that if you this or that, you have to
install the selfmaded profile in the right spot for the concerned
software, be it Photoshop (6 or 7), NC3, ACDSee or others...

Click to expand...

Well, that's a bit of the problem. The combinations and permutations and the rapid updating of software is making it very difficult to come up with a concise step-by-step on anything software-wise--there are just too many variations (and don't forget we have Mac OS-X and perhaps Linux to deal with, too). If I were to really fully tackle the software side of things in my books, they would be 700+ page monsters and out-of-date even faster.

We're in an immature discipline, folks. While many want the all-automated-just-shoot-and-print nature of things they had with 35mm print film, where the film latitude and the automated print processor essentially fixed all manner of problems, we're not there with digital. If you want great results, you have to learn, and unfortunately, understand, what's happening down the process chain. And it keeps changing, so you have to stay on top of it or stick with one set of software and not update every chance you get.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D100, D1, D1h, & D1x and Fujifilm S2
http://www.bythom.com

Very true Thom!

I don't have the book yet (on order), but this title is recommended:
'Real World Color Management'-by Bruce Fraser, Fred Bunting, Chris Murphy

-Hendrik-

Thom Hogan said:

Dominique Provost said:

...is a 'simple' document who explains in simple (english) terms :
with nice screendumps, so that it's clear and understandable for
everyone !

Click to expand...

Well, I just went back and reworked the color management section of
the D100 book so that it'll be more understandable in the next
edition. But...

Thom Hogan said:

Explanations à la Thom Hogan (Hi Thom) is surely true, but not very
PRACTICAL...

Not everyone has a Spyder, or whatever calibration tool,
so it should also be clear that if you this or that, you have to
install the selfmaded profile in the right spot for the concerned
software, be it Photoshop (6 or 7), NC3, ACDSee or others...

Click to expand...

Well, that's a bit of the problem. The combinations and
permutations and the rapid updating of software is making it very
difficult to come up with a concise step-by-step on anything
software-wise--there are just too many variations (and don't forget
we have Mac OS-X and perhaps Linux to deal with, too). If I were to
really fully tackle the software side of things in my books, they
would be 700+ page monsters and out-of-date even faster.

We're in an immature discipline, folks. While many want the
all-automated-just-shoot-and-print nature of things they had with
35mm print film, where the film latitude and the automated print
processor essentially fixed all manner of problems, we're not there
with digital. If you want great results, you have to learn, and
unfortunately, understand, what's happening down the process chain.
And it keeps changing, so you have to stay on top of it or stick
with one set of software and not update every chance you get.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D100, D1, D1h, & D1x and
Fujifilm S2
http://www.bythom.com

Click to expand...