DxOMark: Is the 75 1.8 the best m43 lens Available?

Anders W wrote:

I thought we were comparing systems. No MFT standard zoom is as clumsy and heavy as the 24-105/4.0 IS.
But 24-105L/4.0 IS is a very nice constant F4 weather sealed zoom. The only mFT zoom can compete is overpriced Panny 12-35/2.8 OIS that is $100 more in Amazon. You can get 24-105L around $800 or less these days in eBay. 24-105L has 35mm extra at tele side that is very useful. Many times people only need to carry one lens and this is the lens used to stay on my 5D series 90% of time.

DXOMark has not tested Panny zoom. Canon will be noticeable sharper if DXOMark ever tested. Here is Photozone tests between two lenses. You can see at FF eq 24mm, 24-105L resolves noticeable more in center and edges but Panny only slightly better in far corners when both shoot wide-open (there is only one stop of light between two lenses). When stop down to F5.6, 24-105L leads confortablely in all areas including the far corners

Photozone Canon 24-105L/4.0 IS vs Panny 12-35/2.8 OIS
Photozone Canon 24-105L/4.0 IS vs Panny 12-35/2.8 OIS
Whether SNR is better depends on where you measure it. In the shadows, which is where the noise becomes troublesome, the SNR of the E-M5 is better at base ISO. That is what the higher base-ISO DR figure for the E-M5 tells you.
No, check again as DXOmark shows 5D2 has better SNR in entire ISO range including at EM-5 base ISO 200. EM-5 will have noticeable more noises/grains in shadows. Can you show some 100% cropped EM-5 photos at 100%? You will see noticeable grains in dark blue sky and in close-up portrait photos. I'd have no problem to show 5D1/5D2/5D3 photos at 100% cropped at base ISOs.
Then you apparently only shoot low-DR subjects or abstain from appropriate post-processing. Have a look at this if you are still under the illusion that Canon FF has anything to write home about when it comes to DR at base ISO. And that's the 5DIII. The 5DII is known to be even poorer with regard to banding.
Now you conveniently borrowed D800, lol. We compare mFT to FF here not between 5D3/2 and D800 that is another beaten to death topic in Canon and Nikon forums. Sure I give D800/D600 advantages if you need to pull shadow in extreme. But I don't want to pull shadows 4-5 stops but only moderately as extreme shadow pulling is not a good technique then the difference is not big or even noticeable. But I can pull shadows even with 5D2 if necessary. Check these,


forgot carried GND filter, OOC




+100 shadow and +0.20 EV in LR4







Processed result




100% cropped in the darkest area. I don't see obvious banding

Another sample in the St. Patrick Cathedral with 24mm TS-E II that is under-exposed. Again I don't see obvious banding after +100 shadows and +1.50EV in LR4!




OOC raw




+100% shadow plus +1.50EV in LR4




processed result

Canon banding is over-exaggerated. You're right that 5D3 and 6D are only better. Check the thread below. You'd have to pull 6-stops before you can see small difference at pixel level between 60D, 5D3, D600 and D800 :-)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3344702#forum-post-50384062

Tried EM-5 in those senarios, the 1/4 size small mFT sensor simply cannot overcome the huge SNR deficit. After many stops pulling the noises will be huge from EM-5, banding or not really will be irrelevant, lol. After 4-5 stops pulling in shadow areas the best DR D800 will have ISO 1600-3200 eq noises even w/o banding, no mention extreme shadow pulling will damage critical mid-tone that results surreal look, deterioration in color fidelity, so it's not a free ride. See in the link you quoted why Fred used 5DIII in most his shots at end of day and he seem never bothered by 5D3 DR that is good enough actually in most scenarios. He did the test mainly for balancing his report but no doubt you can figure out which camera he prefers and use most these days.
The link is perfectly alive. But perhaps you didn't want to look at it. Or don't have a PDF reader. Try here if you continue to have difficulties (and download a reader if you don't have one):

http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/editorial/labo/reflex_2013_v8.pdf
I am not be able to open, time out. But really doesn't matter most reviews you can find said lens based IS is better and more effective than IBIS. Canon developed hybrid IS as in 100L/2.8 IS macro and Nikon even claims 5-stop VR in its new 70-200G/4.0 VR.
And why IBIS is better than lens-based IS. What matters in the end is how it works in practice. And in that regard, the test I linked to above shows the E-M5 IBIS to outpace the lens-IS of the 24-105 in terms of efficiency. Note that whereas the 24-105 can correct for two types of camera shake only, the E-M5 IBIS manages five.
24-105L IS is pretty good. many times I can shoot at low as 1/6 with F18 aperture at 24mm side hand-held such as below. Another sample your ISO 200 based EM-5 unable to match w/o severe diffraction. I don't think you can shoot sharp at 1/6 with IBIS.

hand-held in rain in Alaska, 1/6, ISO, F18 and ISO 100 w/o using any filters

hand-held in rain in Alaska, 1/6, ISO, F18 and ISO 100 w/o using any filters
Sharper? Are you kidding? According to LensRentals, it manages 890/730 lp/ih (center/average) on a 5DII at f/4. The 12/2 on an E-M5 manages about the same already at f/2 (860/730) and 1040/870 at f/4.
You are very confusing now you compare prime 12/2 to a zoom 24-105L/4.0 IS? Did I say you need to compare prime to prime and zoom to zoom? I have compared your best mFT zoom Panny 12-35/2.8 against 24-105L above and you see latter beats former easily. If I bring new 24-70L/4.0 IS and flagship 24-70L/2.8 IS II, the gap will be much bigger.

Here is the right comparison between Olympus 12/2.0 vs Canon 24/2.8 IS as I said in last post. That's the comparison you don't want to look but check now.

Canon 24/2.8 IS vs Olympus 12/2.0



Canon 24/2.8 IS vs Olympus 12/2.0
Canon 24/2.8 IS vs Olympus 12/2.0



Sharpness FieldMap between two lenses, not even close
Sharpness FieldMap between two lenses, not even close
If I want to use a versatile (in terms of FL) lens, I have the 14-45. That zoom and three fast primes (12/2, 20/1.7, 45/1.8) weigh less than your 24-105 alone and gives me considerably better low-light capability (between 1 and 1.5 EV better DR, i.e., shadow noise, at higher ISOs) and more DoF control than the 24-105 on the 5DII.
Are you kidding me? Panny 14-45/3.5-5.6 OIS (weather sealed?) compare to weather sealed 24-105L/4.0 IS constant F4. Check Photozone and the resolution is not very close. 24-105L is lots sharper than cheap Panny variable F 14-45. 24mm is much wider than 28mm FF eq. Once you used to 24mm you don't want to go back to 28mm. No way I will get a FF zoom starts at 28mm . According to many 24mm is wide enough but not 28mm.
Sure. You can shoot that statue at higher ISO than I would have to use and end up with more noise than I would. What is the IQ advantage of that?
No I don't have to as simply it's rubbish I have to shoot at the same DoF. What counterpart mFT lens to match to the new Sigma 35/1.4? Check below (you see most appreciate shallow DoF from FF prime lenses not P&S look flat look from smaller sensor).

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3368723

And what are counterparts of mFT lenses as Canon 50L/1.2 and 85L/1.2?
And I am waiting to see how EM-5 could do better such as in the St. Patrick Cathedral.
Don't know what you are talking about.
I know. I am still waiting EM-5 with Panny 20/1.7 can match to Canon 40/2.8 STM Pancake. check my test samples here Don't think Panny 20/1.7 is in the same level.
I am waiting to see how EM-5 can match such IQ in natural sharpness and creamy smooth rendition are all from this 24-105L/4.0 IS. But now I replaced it with even better 24-70L/2.8 II that has no match from mFT side.
As to the quality of the 24-105 versus the MFT lens of my choice in the example we are talking about, see above.
What above? 24-105L is sharper than mFT flagship Panny 12-35/2.8 OIS, cheaper, better build probably and 35mm longer.

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qianp2k wrote:
Anders W wrote:

I thought we were comparing systems. No MFT standard zoom is as clumsy and heavy as the 24-105/4.0 IS.
But 24-105L/4.0 IS is a very nice constant F4 weather sealed zoom. The only mFT zoom can compete is overpriced Panny 12-35/2.8 OIS that is $100 more in Amazon. You can get 24-105L around $800 or less these days in eBay. 24-105L has 35mm extra at tele side that is very useful. Many times people only need to carry one lens and this is the lens used to stay on my 5D series 90% of time.

DXOMark has not tested Panny zoom. Canon will be noticeable sharper if DXOMark ever tested. Here is Photozone tests between two lenses. You can see at FF eq 24mm, 24-105L resolves noticeable more in center and edges but Panny only slightly better in far corners when both shoot wide-open (there is only one stop of light between two lenses). When stop down to F5.6, 24-105L leads confortablely in all areas including the far corners
Photozone's figures are not comparable across systems so no point trying to compare them. These figures from LensRentals are:

Canon 24-105/4 on 5DII:

24 mm, f/4: 890/730

70 mm, f/4: 840/680

Panasonic 12-35/2.8 on E-M5

12 mm, f/4: 960/745

35 mm, f/4: 910/800

Sources:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/01/canon-24-70-f4-is-resolution-tests

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/06/a-weekend-with-the-panasonic-12-35-f2-8
Whether SNR is better depends on where you measure it. In the shadows, which is where the noise becomes troublesome, the SNR of the E-M5 is better at base ISO. That is what the higher base-ISO DR figure for the E-M5 tells you.
No, check again as DXOmark shows 5D2 has better SNR in entire ISO range including at EM-5 base ISO 200. EM-5 will have noticeable more noises/grains in shadows. Can you show some 100% cropped EM-5 photos at 100%? You will see noticeable grains in dark blue sky and in close-up portrait photos. I'd have no problem to show 5D1/5D2/5D3 photos at 100% cropped at base ISOs.
You need to check again. It's not a matter of ISO range. It's a matter of brightness range. And I see no grain in dark blue skies on my E-M5.
Then you apparently only shoot low-DR subjects or abstain from appropriate post-processing. Have a look at this if you are still under the illusion that Canon FF has anything to write home about when it comes to DR at base ISO. And that's the 5DIII. The 5DII is known to be even poorer with regard to banding.
Now you conveniently borrowed D800, lol.
Not at all. I just illustrated the poor DR and banding tendencies of the 5D2 and 5D3 which makes them inferior to the E-M5 at base ISO.
We compare mFT to FF here not between 5D3/2 and D800 that is another beaten to death topic in Canon and Nikon forums.
Right, we are comparing MFT to FF and you chose the FF camera to compare with. Apparently, not all FF cameras are created alike. Here is the summary of how they stand relative to MFT that I linked to in my very first reply to you in this thread, remember?

As far as IQ in terms of DR (which in turn is a good indicator of shadow noise) is concerned, the situation is as follows:

High-ISO shooting when DoF is in short supply: Best MFT cams have the upper hand by about 2/3 EV (D600, D800, 5DIII, A99) or it's a wash (D4, 6D, 1DX).

High-ISO shooting when DoF is abundant: FF cameras ahead by 1 to 2 EV.

Base-ISO shooting (i.e., light is abundant): Best MFT cams ahead by about 0.5 EV or it's a wash in comparison with Canon FF; for Nikon/Sony, FF is ahead by 1 to 2 EV.
Sure I give D800/D600 advantages if you need to pull shadow in extreme. But I don't want to pull shadows 4-5 stops but only moderately as extreme shadow pulling is not a good technique then the difference is not big or even noticeable. But I can pull shadows even with 5D2 if necessary. Check these,
Not impressed. That's nothing. Check this:



HDREX06_zps02fa661b.jpg


HDREX07_zps989eacab.jpg

Canon banding is over-exaggerated.
So you are your own truth witness here are you, the only one you could find. :-)
I am not be able to open, time out. But really doesn't matter most reviews you can find said lens based IS is better and more effective than IBIS.
I have showed you a test, not a review, demonstrating the superiority of the E-M5 IBIS over the 24-105 lens IS. Not my problem if the link doesn't work for you. Everyone else can verify for themselves that it works just fine. And no, we are not talking IBIS versus IS in general. We are talking about these two particular systems.
24-105L IS is pretty good. many times I can shoot at low as 1/6 with F18 aperture at 24mm side hand-held such as below. Another sample your ISO 200 based EM-5 unable to match w/o severe diffraction.
I have no need to shoot at f/18. On MFT, f/9 gives the same DoF and the same diffraction as f/18 on FF.
I don't think you can shoot sharp at 1/6 with IBIS.
No problem at all. Check the exposure time for this.

P1064089_zpscb2c2733.jpg



hand-held in rain in Alaska, 1/6, ISO, F18 and ISO 100 w/o using any filters
Sharper? Are you kidding? According to LensRentals, it manages 890/730 lp/ih (center/average) on a 5DII at f/4. The 12/2 on an E-M5 manages about the same already at f/2 (860/730) and 1040/870 at f/4.
You are very confusing now you compare prime 12/2 to a zoom 24-105L/4.0 IS? Did I say you need to compare prime to prime and zoom to zoom?
Yes you said that but you are wrong. If you want to carry around a big and heavy zoom with inferior performance, that's your problem. We are comparing systems and what they can do. As I pointed out already, I have no trouble carrying both a standard zoom and fast primes at less weight than your single zoom.
Here is the right comparison between Olympus 12/2.0 vs Canon 24/2.8 IS as I said in last post. That's the comparison you don't want to look but check now.
In case you haven't noticed, a considerable part of this thread discusses why DxO lens tests are no good. Welcome back when you have read and understood it. Here are the MTF-50s:

Canon 24/2.8 IS at f/2.8 on 5D2: 865/725

Olympus 12/2 at f/2.8 on E-M5: 1000/845

Sources:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/06/the-other-canon-primes-why-did-they-do-that#more-7786

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/05/wide-angle-micro-43-imatest-results

And here's Roger Cicala concluding remarks about the Olympus 75/1.8, the lens discussed in the OP of this thread:

"It amuses me that a couple of weeks ago I wrote about the new 24mm and 28mm Canon IS primes that I felt were overpriced at around $900, yet I believe this $900 lens is well worth the price (if you can get it for list price). This lens is built better and is arguably sharper."

Source:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/the-olympus-75mm-f1-8-is-expensive-because-its-worth-it
If I want to use a versatile (in terms of FL) lens, I have the 14-45. That zoom and three fast primes (12/2, 20/1.7, 45/1.8) weigh less than your 24-105 alone and gives me considerably better low-light capability (between 1 and 1.5 EV better DR, i.e., shadow noise, at higher ISOs) and more DoF control than the 24-105 on the 5DII.
Are you kidding me? Panny 14-45/3.5-5.6 OIS (weather sealed?) compare to weather sealed 24-105L/4.0 IS constant F4. Check Photozone and the resolution is not very close.
See above regarding Photozone.
24-105L is lots sharper than cheap Panny variable F 14-45.
Where's the evidence supporting that claim? And don't give me the incomparable figures of Photozone again.
24mm is much wider than 28mm FF eq. Once you used to 24mm you don't want to go back to 28mm. No way I will get a FF zoom starts at 28mm . According to many 24mm is wide enough but not 28mm.
Those who want can of course take the 12-50 instead. But I prefer the 14-45 along with primes as needed.
Sure. You can shoot that statue at higher ISO than I would have to use and end up with more noise than I would. What is the IQ advantage of that?
No I don't have to as simply it's rubbish I have to shoot at the same DoF.
You can do exactly as you please when it comes to DoF. As I pointed out already, the implication is merely that people who don't share your carelessness have no reason to listen to you.
What counterpart mFT lens to match to the new Sigma 35/1.4? Check below (you see most appreciate shallow DoF from FF prime lenses not P&S look flat look from smaller sensor).

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3368723

And what are counterparts of mFT lenses as Canon 50L/1.2 and 85L/1.2?
Why should there be one? I have no desire for any of those lenses. Too big and heavy.
And I am waiting to see how EM-5 could do better such as in the St. Patrick Cathedral.
Don't know what you are talking about.
I know. I am still waiting EM-5 with Panny 20/1.7 can match to Canon 40/2.8 STM Pancake. check my test samples here Don't think Panny 20/1.7 is in the same level.
Still no idea what you are talking about.
I am waiting to see how EM-5 can match such IQ in natural sharpness and creamy smooth rendition are all from this 24-105L/4.0 IS. But now I replaced it with even better 24-70L/2.8 II that has no match from mFT side.
As to the quality of the 24-105 versus the MFT lens of my choice in the example we are talking about, see above.
What above? 24-105L is sharper than mFT flagship Panny 12-35/2.8 OIS, cheaper, better build probably and 35mm longer.
See above.
 
noirdesir wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:
OK, what other single number would you use to describe lens performance?
I wouldn't use a single number -- that's kinda my point. A single number is useless, like DPR's score for a camera. I know that's what "sells" on review sites, but, well...
But what is the point then of criticising one implementation of a single number if single numbers per se are deemed rather useless? It is like discussing with a cook why his soup is bad but then at the end saying: 'Actually, I find all kinds of soup are bad'.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. All I'm saying is that reducing a lens rating to a single number is as silly as reducing a camera rating to a single number, as DPR does. However, DxOMark, apparently, has come to the realization that DPR came to long ago: single numbers sell. Well, that's not fair, is it? They've had the single number sensor benchmark for some time, too.


How about a series of photos that serve as standard candles for what the numbers mean? For example, a fullsize photo with a 10 MP rating, 11 MP rating, etc.? Once the visual context is established, the numbers have meaning to the photographer.
If they used a test chart pattern, that would provide some utility but generally one single scene will never be fully representative.
Then use more than one different scenes -- landscape, portrait, macro, etc.
I believe much more in abstraction than in picking a few examples. Either your sample is large enough to be statistically significant and relevant or you manage to find the (mathematical) principal components.
Sure, but aren't we, as photographers, interested in the "real word" differences? How about some "real world" photos to give the context?
Sure, but can't be give that context ourselves? Just pick those measured body+lens combinations that you own or have access to and create those images yourself and compare it with the P-Mpix ratings for those combinations. Shouldn't be rocket science.
Let's consider two systems. System A is sharper in the center and System B is sharper in the corners. If both have a PMP rating of 12 MP, does that give us any useful information about the lenses?
 
...that opinions from anonymous posters on the net trumps lens tests from DxOMark? For example, read the comments, then look at the pic:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/35238498

Do they seem to match? Now what about all those comments that don't have pics accompanying them, or have pics posted at sizes so small that you would have to try to make it look bad.
 
Anders W wrote:
qianp2k wrote:
Anders W wrote:

I thought we were comparing systems. No MFT standard zoom is as clumsy and heavy as the 24-105/4.0 IS.
But 24-105L/4.0 IS is a very nice constant F4 weather sealed zoom. The only mFT zoom can compete is overpriced Panny 12-35/2.8 OIS that is $100 more in Amazon. You can get 24-105L around $800 or less these days in eBay. 24-105L has 35mm extra at tele side that is very useful. Many times people only need to carry one lens and this is the lens used to stay on my 5D series 90% of time.

DXOMark has not tested Panny zoom. Canon will be noticeable sharper if DXOMark ever tested. Here is Photozone tests between two lenses. You can see at FF eq 24mm, 24-105L resolves noticeable more in center and edges but Panny only slightly better in far corners when both shoot wide-open (there is only one stop of light between two lenses). When stop down to F5.6, 24-105L leads confortablely in all areas including the far corners
Photozone's figures are not comparable across systems so no point trying to compare them. These figures from LensRentals are:
Why not comparable thru Photozone tests but comparable in LenRentals' tests? They both test on sensor-lens combo, right?
Canon 24-105/4 on 5DII:

24 mm, f/4: 890/730

70 mm, f/4: 840/680

Panasonic 12-35/2.8 on E-M5

12 mm, f/4: 960/745

35 mm, f/4: 910/800
Now you conveniently stop down Panny 12-35 to one huge stop rather tested at their respective wide open, and you don't care your same-DoF principle anymore, lol. I am not sure why LensRentals are more accurate than Photozone? I will think DXOMark is the most accurate and they did the more scientific tests under the most controlled environment. Nevertheless even from the LensRentals here is the most complete picture (I am not sure if they tested under the same environment at different time).

Canon 24-105L on 5DII at F4.0 wide-open

24 mm, f/4: 890/730

70 mm, f/4: 840/680

Panasonic 12-35/2.8 on E-M5 at F2.8 wide-open

12 mm, f/2.8: 875/710

35 mm, f/2.8: 865/760

Canon 24-70L/2.8 II at F2.8 wide-open

24 mm, F2.8 1010/910

70mm, F2.8 975/820
I believe Photozone tests are more accurate. Nevertheless you can see what sharpness of 24-105L in real world photos in my samples. If you want let's compare at 100% cropped size.
Whether SNR is better depends on where you measure it. In the shadows, which is where the noise becomes troublesome, the SNR of the E-M5 is better at base ISO. That is what the higher base-ISO DR figure for the E-M5 tells you.
No, check again as DXOmark shows 5D2 has better SNR in entire ISO range including at EM-5 base ISO 200. EM-5 will have noticeable more noises/grains in shadows. Can you show some 100% cropped EM-5 photos at 100%? You will see noticeable grains in dark blue sky and in close-up portrait photos. I'd have no problem to show 5D1/5D2/5D3 photos at 100% cropped at base ISOs.
You need to check again. It's not a matter of ISO range. It's a matter of brightness range. And I see no grain in dark blue skies on my E-M5.
You will see if you view at 100% cropped size, the same on skins in close-up portraiture.
Then you apparently only shoot low-DR subjects or abstain from appropriate post-processing. Have a look at this if you are still under the illusion that Canon FF has anything to write home about when it comes to DR at base ISO. And that's the 5DIII. The 5DII is known to be even poorer with regard to banding.
Now you conveniently borrowed D800, lol.
Not at all. I just illustrated the poor DR and banding tendencies of the 5D2 and 5D3 which makes them inferior to the E-M5 at base ISO.
Not poor and far from poor. Sure D800/D600 is better. But as the link I quoted in reality unless you intentionally exposed on highlight and pull deep dark shadows 4-6 stops, you will not see much difference. I am not a fan of extreme shadow pulling and don't believe it's a good technique to generate good photos. Most Nikon shooters don't do either as they aware the side effects from extreme shadow pulling.
We compare mFT to FF here not between 5D3/2 and D800 that is another beaten to death topic in Canon and Nikon forums.
Right, we are comparing MFT to FF and you chose the FF camera to compare with. Apparently, not all FF cameras are created alike. Here is the summary of how they stand relative to MFT that I linked to in my very first reply to you in this thread, remember?
But FF is full frame that has about 4x sensor size of mFT sensor. mFT suffers 2.0X more crop magnification penalties You can see Canon FF even 7.5 yrs old 5Dc still beats your best mFT easily in real world photos easily. Show me some outdoor photos under normal light that can match my 5Dc samples I showed earlier in sharpness and smoothness.
As far as IQ in terms of DR (which in turn is a good indicator of shadow noise) is concerned, the situation is as follows:
SNR is a good indicator of shadow noise.
High-ISO shooting when DoF is in short supply: Best MFT cams have the upper hand by about 2/3 EV (D600, D800, 5DIII, A99) or it's a wash (D4, 6D, 1DX).
In most cases, DoF is not an issue at all. You see my 24-70L II samples at F2.8. I don't show DoF issue. As I keep saying edges OOF plate is not the same as softness but many times generate more attractive look. For example again in the St. Patrick Cathedral with 24-70L/2.8 II (w/o IS) hand-held. I could use 1/25 shutter actually. It's a very deep and wide church.




24-70L/2.8 II (no IS) on 5DIII hand-held
High-ISO shooting when DoF is abundant: FF cameras ahead by 1 to 2 EV.
5D3 has at least 1.5 stops high ISO advantage than EM-5.
Base-ISO shooting (i.e., light is abundant): Best MFT cams ahead by about 0.5 EV or it's a wash in comparison with Canon FF; for Nikon/Sony, FF is ahead by 1 to 2 EV.
FF is much better in natural sharpness (please don't show fur as many confuse moire as sharpness), better color tonality and DR especially in highlight clipping. FF photos look simply more popup and more 3-D look than relative flat and dull look photos from mFT.
Sure I give D800/D600 advantages if you need to pull shadow in extreme. But I don't want to pull shadows 4-5 stops but only moderately as extreme shadow pulling is not a good technique then the difference is not big or even noticeable. But I can pull shadows even with 5D2 if necessary. Check these,
Not impressed. That's nothing. Check this:
Not very deep dark, and after your pulling I don't see much textual details that washed out. Check those straps surrounding the circle. Where details that look so mushy?
Canon banding is over-exaggerated.
So you are your own truth witness here are you, the only one you could find. :-)
In real world photos.
http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/editorial/labo/reflex_2013_v8.pdf
I am not be able to open, time out. But really doesn't matter most reviews you can find said lens based IS is better and more effective than IBIS.
I have showed you a test, not a review, demonstrating the superiority of the E-M5 IBIS over the 24-105 lens IS. Not my problem if the link doesn't work for you. Everyone else can verify for themselves that it works just fine. And no, we are not talking IBIS versus IS in general. We are talking about these two particular systems.
That is fine. I can show you lots more photos from this 24-105L that are so sharp with excellent micro contrast and smoothness. Bring out more real world photos at large size, and let's compare at 3000 or 4000 pixel wide.
24-105L IS is pretty good. many times I can shoot at low as 1/6 with F18 aperture at 24mm side hand-held such as below. Another sample your ISO 200 based EM-5 unable to match w/o severe diffraction.
I have no need to shoot at f/18. On MFT, f/9 gives the same DoF and the same diffraction as f/18 on FF.
The point is to slow down the shutter for waterfall not F18 or F22 (as another sample I showed earlier). I can shoot my 5D at ISO 50 at F22 to slow down shutter dramatically. What you can do with ISO 200 EM-5 and at what F number w/o showing obvious diffraction?
I don't think you can shoot sharp at 1/6 with IBIS.
No problem at all. Check the exposure time for this.
See you only show in a very small size. Look noises in shadow areas at base ISO 200. Thx for a good sample to show EM-5 shadow noises, lol. in such scene I can shoot 5D3 with 24mm F2.8 IS at ISO 320, it will be much cleaner with lots more details. this photo simply doesn't show EM-5 IQ nor 20/2.0 lens performance.
P1064089_zpscb2c2733.jpg

hand-held in rain in Alaska, 1/6, ISO, F18 and ISO 100 w/o using any filters
Sharper? Are you kidding? According to LensRentals, it manages 890/730 lp/ih (center/average) on a 5DII at f/4. The 12/2 on an E-M5 manages about the same already at f/2 (860/730) and 1040/870 at f/4.
You are very confusing now you compare prime 12/2 to a zoom 24-105L/4.0 IS? Did I say you need to compare prime to prime and zoom to zoom?
Yes you said that but you are wrong. If you want to carry around a big and heavy zoom with inferior performance, that's your problem. We are comparing systems and what they can do. As I pointed out already, I have no trouble carrying both a standard zoom and fast primes at less weight than your single zoom.
Wait a minute 24-105L is much better than Panny 14-45/3.5-5.6 and even to more expensive flagship Panny 14-35/2.8 when stop down or at respective wide-open. Don't forget 1.5 stop FF high ISO advantage. In mot real world photos, F4 has enough DoF. I show earlier I can shoot at F2.8 w/o issues. Shallower DOF is not worse but just different look and many time it has more pleasing and attractive look.
Here is the right comparison between Olympus 12/2.0 vs Canon 24/2.8 IS as I said in last post. That's the comparison you don't want to look but check now.
In case you haven't noticed, a considerable part of this thread discusses why DxO lens tests are no good. Welcome back when you have read and understood it. Here are the MTF-50s:

Canon 24/2.8 IS at f/2.8 on 5D2: 865/725

Olympus 12/2 at f/2.8 on E-M5: 1000/845

Sources:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/06/the-other-canon-primes-why-did-they-do-that#more-7786

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/05/wide-angle-micro-43-imatest-results
Again you don't compare them at their respective wide open. Olympus 20/2 at F2.0 is 860/730.
And here's Roger Cicala concluding remarks about the Olympus 75/1.8, the lens discussed in the OP of this thread:

"It amuses me that a couple of weeks ago I wrote about the new 24mm and 28mm Canon IS primes that I felt were overpriced at around $900, yet I believe this $900 lens is well worth the price (if you can get it for list price). This lens is built better and is arguably sharper."

Source:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/the-olympus-75mm-f1-8-is-expensive-because-its-worth-it
However I seriously doubt LensRentals test is more accurate than DXOMark. I trust DXOMark tests most. I hope the Digital Picture also add mFT lenses into its ISO 12233 Resolution Chart Comparison. DXO and DPR should add such tests for a real world comparison.
If I want to use a versatile (in terms of FL) lens, I have the 14-45. That zoom and three fast primes (12/2, 20/1.7, 45/1.8) weigh less than your 24-105 alone and gives me considerably better low-light capability (between 1 and 1.5 EV better DR, i.e., shadow noise, at higher ISOs) and more DoF control than the 24-105 on the 5DII.
Are you kidding me? Panny 14-45/3.5-5.6 OIS (weather sealed?) compare to weather sealed 24-105L/4.0 IS constant F4. Check Photozone and the resolution is not very close.
See above regarding Photozone.
It's very valid to compare cross systems as DPR and DXO or you are trying to do by using LensRentals. Please don't single out Photozone.
24-105L is lots sharper than cheap Panny variable F 14-45.
Where's the evidence supporting that claim? And don't give me the incomparable figures of Photozone again.
Yes check photozone as DXOmark doesn't test otherwise it will reach the same conclusion.
24mm is much wider than 28mm FF eq. Once you used to 24mm you don't want to go back to 28mm. No way I will get a FF zoom starts at 28mm . According to many 24mm is wide enough but not 28mm.
Those who want can of course take the 12-50 instead. But I prefer the 14-45 along with primes as needed.
but 24-105L is weather sealed, 35mm longer and actually sharper when stop down. 14-45 is not at the same level but should compare to very cheap and old Canon 24-85/3.5-5.6 or Nikon 24-85/3.5-5.6 VR that actually is pretty good (kit lens on D600). Now the new Canon kit lens is 24-70L/4.0 IS that is noticeable better. Or another choice Tamron 24-70/2.8 VC (it has 4-stop IS).
Sure. You can shoot that statue at higher ISO than I would have to use and end up with more noise than I would. What is the IQ advantage of that?
No I don't have to as simply it's rubbish I have to shoot at the same DoF.
You can do exactly as you please when it comes to DoF. As I pointed out already, the implication is merely that people who don't share your carelessness have no reason to listen to you.
In most cases such as in landscape, there is no difference between F4.0 and F8.0 for remote scenes. The new Canon lenses such as 24-70L/2.8 II and 40/2.8 pancake are sharp even at F2.8 wide-open from edge to edge. In close scenes, shallower DOF is not necessarily a disadvantage but just a different look. I simply reject the assertion that I must shoot at the same DOF. I prefer shallower DOF not indefinite DOF that look like P&S flat and dull.
What counterpart mFT lens to match to the new Sigma 35/1.4? Check below (you see most appreciate shallow DoF from FF prime lenses not P&S look flat look from smaller sensor).

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3368723

And what are counterparts of mFT lenses as Canon 50L/1.2 and 85L/1.2?
Why should there be one? I have no desire for any of those lenses. Too big and heavy.
Yes that's make huge difference in portraiture and even regular street shots as I showed the samples from someone's Sigma 35/1.4. They look lots more attractive than F8 shots. You only speak for yourself.
And I am waiting to see how EM-5 could do better such as in the St. Patrick Cathedral.
Don't know what you are talking about.
I know. I am still waiting EM-5 with Panny 20/1.7 can match to Canon 40/2.8 STM Pancake. check my test samples here Don't think Panny 20/1.7 is in the same level.
Still no idea what you are talking about.
Bring out samples of Panny 20/1.7 at F1.7 wide open that is not at the same level of Canon 40/2.8 lens.
I am waiting to see how EM-5 can match such IQ in natural sharpness and creamy smooth rendition are all from this 24-105L/4.0 IS. But now I replaced it with even better 24-70L/2.8 II that has no match from mFT side.
As to the quality of the 24-105 versus the MFT lens of my choice in the example we are talking about, see above.
What above? 24-105L is sharper than mFT flagship Panny 12-35/2.8 OIS, cheaper, better build probably and 35mm longer.
See above.
--
http://qianp2k.zenfolio.com/
 
Last edited:
quianp2k wrote "I don't think you can shoot sharp at 1/6 with IBIS."

What ? Really ? Do you know what you are taliking about ?


Whilst I don't have the E-M5 with it's advanced 5 axis IBIS I have used Olympus' 3 axis IBIS on my 4/3 cameras and now on my E-P3. It is no problem for me to handhold the E-P3 at 1/6 and achieve sharp enough photos to print. The photos below were taken after I read your silly comment using the lens that was currently on the E-P3 (the 4/3 25mm f2.8 pancake), which isn't an outstanding lens but still quite good, all handheld and without the benefit of the VF2 viewfinder with which I could achieve even lower shutter speeds. Nothing special about the photos, just quickies of my brick gatepost. See below,







1/6 second






1/8th second






1/10th second









1/15th second



Raws processed in OV2 with contrast +1 and sharpness set to zero, no anti-shock.


And I believe you could do better with the E-M5

Rgds, Rob
 
qianp2k wrote:
Anders W wrote:
qianp2k wrote:
Anders W wrote:

I thought we were comparing systems. No MFT standard zoom is as clumsy and heavy as the 24-105/4.0 IS.
But 24-105L/4.0 IS is a very nice constant F4 weather sealed zoom. The only mFT zoom can compete is overpriced Panny 12-35/2.8 OIS that is $100 more in Amazon. You can get 24-105L around $800 or less these days in eBay. 24-105L has 35mm extra at tele side that is very useful. Many times people only need to carry one lens and this is the lens used to stay on my 5D series 90% of time.

DXOMark has not tested Panny zoom. Canon will be noticeable sharper if DXOMark ever tested. Here is Photozone tests between two lenses. You can see at FF eq 24mm, 24-105L resolves noticeable more in center and edges but Panny only slightly better in far corners when both shoot wide-open (there is only one stop of light between two lenses). When stop down to F5.6, 24-105L leads confortablely in all areas including the far corners
Photozone's figures are not comparable across systems so no point trying to compare them. These figures from LensRentals are:
Why not comparable thru Photozone tests but comparable in LenRentals' tests? They both test on sensor-lens combo, right?
Yes, but PP is not comparable in Photozone. At LensRentals it is.
Canon 24-105/4 on 5DII:

24 mm, f/4: 890/730

70 mm, f/4: 840/680

Panasonic 12-35/2.8 on E-M5

12 mm, f/4: 960/745

35 mm, f/4: 910/800
Now you conveniently stop down Panny 12-35 to one huge stop rather tested at their respective wide open, and you don't care your same-DoF principle anymore, lol. I am not sure why LensRentals are more accurate than Photozone? I will think DXOMark is the most accurate and they did the more scientific tests under the most controlled environment. Nevertheless even from the LensRentals here is the most complete picture (I am not sure if they tested under the same environment at different time).

Canon 24-105L on 5DII at F4.0 wide-open

24 mm, f/4: 890/730

70 mm, f/4: 840/680

Panasonic 12-35/2.8 on E-M5 at F2.8 wide-open

12 mm, f/2.8: 875/710

35 mm, f/2.8: 865/760

Canon 24-70L/2.8 II at F2.8 wide-open

24 mm, F2.8 1010/910

70mm, F2.8 975/820
Now you are dreaming again. The correct figures for the 24-70 are in the first of the two links I provided below.

On top of that, some facts you conveniently omitted

Panasonic 12-35/2.8

Weight: 300 g

Price: USD 900

Canon 24-70/2.8 II

Weight: 800 g

Price: USD 2300

Canon 24-105/4

Weight: 700 g

Price: USD 1100
The question is one of comparability rather than accuracy. For comparisons across platforms, the Photozone figures are of no use.
Nevertheless you can see what sharpness of 24-105L in real world photos in my samples. If you want let's compare at 100% cropped size.
I prefer comparable evidence.
Whether SNR is better depends on where you measure it. In the shadows, which is where the noise becomes troublesome, the SNR of the E-M5 is better at base ISO. That is what the higher base-ISO DR figure for the E-M5 tells you.
No, check again as DXOmark shows 5D2 has better SNR in entire ISO range including at EM-5 base ISO 200. EM-5 will have noticeable more noises/grains in shadows. Can you show some 100% cropped EM-5 photos at 100%? You will see noticeable grains in dark blue sky and in close-up portrait photos. I'd have no problem to show 5D1/5D2/5D3 photos at 100% cropped at base ISOs.
You need to check again. It's not a matter of ISO range. It's a matter of brightness range. And I see no grain in dark blue skies on my E-M5.
You will see if you view at 100% cropped size, the same on skins in close-up portraiture.
I was talking about full magnification. The E-M5 has better noise performance where it matters: in the shadows. The highlights are fine on both cameras.
Then you apparently only shoot low-DR subjects or abstain from appropriate post-processing. Have a look at this if you are still under the illusion that Canon FF has anything to write home about when it comes to DR at base ISO. And that's the 5DIII. The 5DII is known to be even poorer with regard to banding.
Now you conveniently borrowed D800, lol.
Not at all. I just illustrated the poor DR and banding tendencies of the 5D2 and 5D3 which makes them inferior to the E-M5 at base ISO.
Not poor and far from poor. Sure D800/D600 is better. But as the link I quoted in reality unless you intentionally exposed on highlight and pull deep dark shadows 4-6 stops, you will not see much difference.
As shown in the link I posted, Canon FF has major difficulties even with rather modest shadow pulling due to poor DR and banding.
I am not a fan of extreme shadow pulling and don't believe it's a good technique to generate good photos.
Who cares what you are a fan of?
Most Nikon shooters don't do either as they aware the side effects from extreme shadow pulling.
We compare mFT to FF here not between 5D3/2 and D800 that is another beaten to death topic in Canon and Nikon forums.
Right, we are comparing MFT to FF and you chose the FF camera to compare with. Apparently, not all FF cameras are created alike. Here is the summary of how they stand relative to MFT that I linked to in my very first reply to you in this thread, remember?
But FF is full frame that has about 4x sensor size of mFT sensor. mFT suffers 2.0X more crop magnification penalties
As shown by the tests we have been talking about, there are no such penalties. MFT lenses can be sharper within the image circle they cover since they are not faced with the burden of covering as wide a circle.
You can see Canon FF even 7.5 yrs old 5Dc still beats your best mFT easily in real world photos easily. Show me some outdoor photos under normal light that can match my 5Dc samples I showed earlier in sharpness and smoothness.
As already indicated, I prefer directly comparable evidence. But feel free to look at this test series that I posted (for other purposes) in another thread the other day.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3373946?page=3
As far as IQ in terms of DR (which in turn is a good indicator of shadow noise) is concerned, the situation is as follows:
SNR is a good indicator of shadow noise.
Yes, shadow SNR is a good indicator of shadow noise. And it's higher on the E-M5.
High-ISO shooting when DoF is in short supply: Best MFT cams have the upper hand by about 2/3 EV (D600, D800, 5DIII, A99) or it's a wash (D4, 6D, 1DX).
In most cases, DoF is not an issue at all. You see my 24-70L II samples at F2.8. I don't show DoF issue. As I keep saying edges OOF plate is not the same as softness but many times generate more attractive look. For example again in the St. Patrick Cathedral with 24-70L/2.8 II (w/o IS) hand-held. I could use 1/25 shutter actually. It's a very deep and wide church.
No you don't show "DoF issues" do you? Do you really think that you can demonstrate that "DoF is not an issue at all in most cases" by such means? :-)
High-ISO shooting when DoF is abundant: FF cameras ahead by 1 to 2 EV.
5D3 has at least 1.5 stops high ISO advantage than EM-5.
No the DR difference is slightly smaller than that at the same ISO. In practice, this means that I can always do at least as well with my E-M5 as you can with your Canon and the zooms you use. Of course, at base ISO as well as at higher ISOs when DoF is in short supply, my results will be better.
Base-ISO shooting (i.e., light is abundant): Best MFT cams ahead by about 0.5 EV or it's a wash in comparison with Canon FF; for Nikon/Sony, FF is ahead by 1 to 2 EV.
FF is much better in natural sharpness (please don't show fur as many confuse moire as sharpness), better color tonality and DR especially in highlight clipping. FF photos look simply more popup and more 3-D look than relative flat and dull look photos from mFT.
More mumbo-jumbo.
Sure I give D800/D600 advantages if you need to pull shadow in extreme. But I don't want to pull shadows 4-5 stops but only moderately as extreme shadow pulling is not a good technique then the difference is not big or even noticeable. But I can pull shadows even with 5D2 if necessary. Check these,
Not impressed. That's nothing. Check this:
Not very deep dark, and after your pulling I don't see much textual details that washed out. Check those straps surrounding the circle. Where details that look so mushy?
Far deeper than in the samples you showed. And you apparently don't know much about what that those details actually look like and/or need to visit an eye doctor.
Canon banding is over-exaggerated.
So you are your own truth witness here are you, the only one you could find. :-)
In real world photos.
Only in your highly biased judgment. :-)
http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/editorial/labo/reflex_2013_v8.pdf
I am not be able to open, time out. But really doesn't matter most reviews you can find said lens based IS is better and more effective than IBIS.
I have showed you a test, not a review, demonstrating the superiority of the E-M5 IBIS over the 24-105 lens IS. Not my problem if the link doesn't work for you. Everyone else can verify for themselves that it works just fine. And no, we are not talking IBIS versus IS in general. We are talking about these two particular systems.
That is fine. I can show you lots more photos from this 24-105L that are so sharp with excellent micro contrast and smoothness. Bring out more real world photos at large size, and let's compare at 3000 or 4000 pixel wide.
Save your breath. We already have better evidence at our disposal. :-)
24-105L IS is pretty good. many times I can shoot at low as 1/6 with F18 aperture at 24mm side hand-held such as below. Another sample your ISO 200 based EM-5 unable to match w/o severe diffraction.
I have no need to shoot at f/18. On MFT, f/9 gives the same DoF and the same diffraction as f/18 on FF.
The point is to slow down the shutter for waterfall not F18 or F22 (as another sample I showed earlier). I can shoot my 5D at ISO 50 at F22 to slow down shutter dramatically. What you can do with ISO 200 EM-5 and at what F number w/o showing obvious diffraction?
Use an ND filter.
I don't think you can shoot sharp at 1/6 with IBIS.
No problem at all. Check the exposure time for this.
See you only show in a very small size. Look noises in shadow areas at base ISO 200. Thx for a good sample to show EM-5 shadow noises, lol. in such scene I can shoot 5D3 with 24mm F2.8 IS at ISO 320, it will be much cleaner with lots more details. this photo simply doesn't show EM-5 IQ nor 20/2.0 lens performance.
As I said, you need to visit your eye doctor. BTW: The lens used is the 12/2. There isn't a 20/2.0 for MFT as far as I know.
P1064089_zpscb2c2733.jpg

hand-held in rain in Alaska, 1/6, ISO, F18 and ISO 100 w/o using any filters
Sharper? Are you kidding? According to LensRentals, it manages 890/730 lp/ih (center/average) on a 5DII at f/4. The 12/2 on an E-M5 manages about the same already at f/2 (860/730) and 1040/870 at f/4.
You are very confusing now you compare prime 12/2 to a zoom 24-105L/4.0 IS? Did I say you need to compare prime to prime and zoom to zoom?
Yes you said that but you are wrong. If you want to carry around a big and heavy zoom with inferior performance, that's your problem. We are comparing systems and what they can do. As I pointed out already, I have no trouble carrying both a standard zoom and fast primes at less weight than your single zoom.
Wait a minute 24-105L is much better than Panny 14-45/3.5-5.6 and even to more expensive flagship Panny 14-35/2.8 when stop down or at respective wide-open. Don't forget 1.5 stop FF high ISO advantage. In mot real world photos, F4 has enough DoF. I show earlier I can shoot at F2.8 w/o issues. Shallower DOF is not worse but just different look and many time it has more pleasing and attractive look.
As I already said, I don't use the 14-45 in low light or for shallow DoF. I have primes for that. That you prefer to use slow zooms for such purposes is your problem.
Here is the right comparison between Olympus 12/2.0 vs Canon 24/2.8 IS as I said in last post. That's the comparison you don't want to look but check now.
In case you haven't noticed, a considerable part of this thread discusses why DxO lens tests are no good. Welcome back when you have read and understood it. Here are the MTF-50s:

Canon 24/2.8 IS at f/2.8 on 5D2: 865/725

Olympus 12/2 at f/2.8 on E-M5: 1000/845

Sources:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/06/the-other-canon-primes-why-did-they-do-that#more-7786

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/05/wide-angle-micro-43-imatest-results
Again you don't compare them at their respective wide open. Olympus 20/2 at F2.0 is 860/730.
Why should the fact that the Oly is faster be held against it in the comparison?
And here's Roger Cicala concluding remarks about the Olympus 75/1.8, the lens discussed in the OP of this thread:

"It amuses me that a couple of weeks ago I wrote about the new 24mm and 28mm Canon IS primes that I felt were overpriced at around $900, yet I believe this $900 lens is well worth the price (if you can get it for list price). This lens is built better and is arguably sharper."

Source:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/the-olympus-75mm-f1-8-is-expensive-because-its-worth-it
However I seriously doubt LensRentals test is more accurate than DXOMark. I trust DXOMark tests most. I hope the Digital Picture also add mFT lenses into its ISO 12233 Resolution Chart Comparison. DXO and DPR should add such tests for a real world comparison.
Who cares what you believe?
If I want to use a versatile (in terms of FL) lens, I have the 14-45. That zoom and three fast primes (12/2, 20/1.7, 45/1.8) weigh less than your 24-105 alone and gives me considerably better low-light capability (between 1 and 1.5 EV better DR, i.e., shadow noise, at higher ISOs) and more DoF control than the 24-105 on the 5DII.
Are you kidding me? Panny 14-45/3.5-5.6 OIS (weather sealed?) compare to weather sealed 24-105L/4.0 IS constant F4. Check Photozone and the resolution is not very close.
See above regarding Photozone.
It's very valid to compare cross systems as DPR and DXO or you are trying to do by using LensRentals. Please don't single out Photozone.
See explanation at the top of this post.
24-105L is lots sharper than cheap Panny variable F 14-45.
Where's the evidence supporting that claim? And don't give me the incomparable figures of Photozone again.
Yes check photozone as DXOmark doesn't test otherwise it will reach the same conclusion.
See above.
24mm is much wider than 28mm FF eq. Once you used to 24mm you don't want to go back to 28mm. No way I will get a FF zoom starts at 28mm . According to many 24mm is wide enough but not 28mm.
Those who want can of course take the 12-50 instead. But I prefer the 14-45 along with primes as needed.
but 24-105L is weather sealed, 35mm longer and actually sharper when stop down.
I would hope it is sharper when it is stopped down than it is wide open.
14-45 is not at the same level
Says who?
but should compare to very cheap and old Canon 24-85/3.5-5.6 or Nikon 24-85/3.5-5.6 VR that actually is pretty good (kit lens on D600). Now the new Canon kit lens is 24-70L/4.0 IS that is noticeable better. Or another choice Tamron 24-70/2.8 VC (it has 4-stop IS).

Sure. You can shoot that statue at higher ISO than I would have to use and end up with more noise than I would. What is the IQ advantage of that?
No I don't have to as simply it's rubbish I have to shoot at the same DoF.
You can do exactly as you please when it comes to DoF. As I pointed out already, the implication is merely that people who don't share your carelessness have no reason to listen to you.
In most cases such as in landscape, there is no difference between F4.0 and F8.0 for remote scenes. The new Canon lenses such as 24-70L/2.8 II and 40/2.8 pancake are sharp even at F2.8 wide-open from edge to edge. In close scenes, shallower DOF is not necessarily a disadvantage but just a different look. I simply reject the assertion that I must shoot at the same DOF. I prefer shallower DOF not indefinite DOF that look like P&S flat and dull.
See above.
What counterpart mFT lens to match to the new Sigma 35/1.4? Check below (you see most appreciate shallow DoF from FF prime lenses not P&S look flat look from smaller sensor).

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3368723

And what are counterparts of mFT lenses as Canon 50L/1.2 and 85L/1.2?
Why should there be one? I have no desire for any of those lenses. Too big and heavy.
Yes that's make huge difference in portraiture and even regular street shots as I showed the samples from someone's Sigma 35/1.4. They look lots more attractive than F8 shots. You only speak for yourself.
So you shoot portraits at f/1.2 on FF? Care to show me some?
And I am waiting to see how EM-5 could do better such as in the St. Patrick Cathedral.
Don't know what you are talking about.
I know. I am still waiting EM-5 with Panny 20/1.7 can match to Canon 40/2.8 STM Pancake. check my test samples here Don't think Panny 20/1.7 is in the same level.
Still no idea what you are talking about.
Bring out samples of Panny 20/1.7 at F1.7 wide open that is not at the same level of Canon 40/2.8 lens.
Hard to do. The samples from the 20/1.7 at f/1.7 that I am aware are all at least as good.
I am waiting to see how EM-5 can match such IQ in natural sharpness and creamy smooth rendition are all from this 24-105L/4.0 IS. But now I replaced it with even better 24-70L/2.8 II that has no match from mFT side.
As to the quality of the 24-105 versus the MFT lens of my choice in the example we are talking about, see above.
What above? 24-105L is sharper than mFT flagship Panny 12-35/2.8 OIS, cheaper, better build probably and 35mm longer.
See above.
--
http://qianp2k.zenfolio.com/
 
Sharpest is not the best. I sold mine. It has no character IMHO, and I found it "sterile". Technical perfection (HAH!) bypasses artistic expression with this lens.
 
Too sharp and sterile to boot? I'll give you the sterile in terms of build quality. It's a super clean lens. No plastic, just glass and aluminum, but too sharp? Thats like complaining that your too handsome or too pretty.
 
Banger wrote:

quianp2k wrote "I don't think you can shoot sharp at 1/6 with IBIS."

What ? Really ? Do you know what you are taliking about ?

Whilst I don't have the E-M5 with it's advanced 5 axis IBIS I have used Olympus' 3 axis IBIS on my 4/3 cameras and now on my E-P3. It is no problem for me to handhold the E-P3 at 1/6 and achieve sharp enough photos to print. The photos below were taken after I read your silly comment using the lens that was currently on the E-P3 (the 4/3 25mm f2.8 pancake), which isn't an outstanding lens but still quite good, all handheld and without the benefit of the VF2 viewfinder with which I could achieve even lower shutter speeds. Nothing special about the photos, just quickies of my brick gatepost. See below,




1/6 second




1/8th second




1/10th second




1/15th second

Raws processed in OV2 with contrast +1 and sharpness set to zero, no anti-shock.

And I believe you could do better with the E-M5

Rgds, Rob
Hi Rob , those shots demonstrate both the advanatge and disadvantage of IS of any kind. While the static items in the image are reasonably sharp even the slight movement of the leaves has left them less than sharp { motion blur} . IS is only of significant advantage on static subjects as even relatively slow motion will cause blur in the images. So the scenarios where IS is an advantage are in fact reduced to shooting static subjects in circumstances when you cannot use any kind of camera support many of which are not too heavy bean bags, mini tripods etc , and support gives you the freedom to use any aperture ISO contamination you wish.

There are no shortage of FF lenses with IS ranging from 16mm to 800mm both on brand and off brand , and Sony has IS built in to their FF cameras .


Jim
 
jim stirling wrote:
Banger wrote:

quianp2k wrote "I don't think you can shoot sharp at 1/6 with IBIS."

What ? Really ? Do you know what you are taliking about ?

Whilst I don't have the E-M5 with it's advanced 5 axis IBIS I have used Olympus' 3 axis IBIS on my 4/3 cameras and now on my E-P3. It is no problem for me to handhold the E-P3 at 1/6 and achieve sharp enough photos to print. The photos below were taken after I read your silly comment using the lens that was currently on the E-P3 (the 4/3 25mm f2.8 pancake), which isn't an outstanding lens but still quite good, all handheld and without the benefit of the VF2 viewfinder with which I could achieve even lower shutter speeds. Nothing special about the photos, just quickies of my brick gatepost. See below,




1/6 second




1/8th second




1/10th second




1/15th second

Raws processed in OV2 with contrast +1 and sharpness set to zero, no anti-shock.

And I believe you could do better with the E-M5

Rgds, Rob
Hi Rob , those shots demonstrate both the advanatge and disadvantage of IS of any kind. While the static items in the image are reasonably sharp even the slight movement of the leaves has left them less than sharp { motion blur} . IS is only of significant advantage on static subjects as even relatively slow motion will cause blur in the images. So the scenarios where IS is an advantage are in fact reduced to shooting static subjects in circumstances when you cannot use any kind of camera support many of which are not too heavy bean bags, mini tripods etc , and support gives you the freedom to use any aperture ISO contamination you wish.
Hmm: a) I see no sign of motion blur in those shots and b) what you say applies more generally at shorter FLs only. At longer FLs, IS is certainly a significant advantage even if the subject is far from perfectly static.

As to tripods and bean bags, one of the reasons I went with MFT is to cut down on bulk/weight. While I am perfectly happy to use tripods for planned shots, I am not likely to walk about with anything more than an Ultra-Pod and it's far from always possible to get the shooting position and angle I want by means of that. There are also quite a few cases where the use of tripods are forbidden or otherwise unwanted/undesirable.
There are no shortage of FF lenses with IS ranging from 16mm to 800mm both on brand and off brand ,
And quite a few without. IBIS has no problem with that though and saves us the trouble/cost/bulk/weight of building IS into every lens.
and Sony has IS built in to their FF cameras .
Yes. That's a good reason to go Sony if you go FF.
 
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If it's possible to compare cross-system from lensrentals figures, it strucks (and astonishes) me that the 12-50 doesn't seem to be too far behind 24-105L. Same reach, a little faster at the wide end, 1,5 stop slower at the long end, only somewhat less sharp. Do I read wrong?
 
Member said:
mferencz wrote:

Too sharp and sterile to boot? I'll give you the sterile in terms of build quality. It's a super clean lens. No plastic, just glass and aluminum, but too sharp? Thats like complaining that your too handsome or too pretty.
Who the he!! is talking about build quality? Super clean...who cares? If you want to look at build quality, look at an old Summilux lens.

Crawl out from under your TV with the typewriter on it and your camera with the TV on it. Numbers aren't everything and sharpness isn't either. Sharpness is not art. It's pixel peeping. Photography is art.

You don't need the sharpest lens in the world. You need a lens with character.


Dawn at the Grand Canyon
 
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Anders W wrote:
It follows, as I have already visually shown two times around based on crops/samples originally chosen by you, that the E-M5 has a clear lead over the D800 when the two are shot (for the same DoF) at ISO 1600 and ISO 6400, respectively.
Anders I have posted several examples using samples taken in reasonably controlled circumstances that very clearly demonstrate the advantages that the extra detail allows. With the D800 you can have either. The sample below is a straight crop of the RAW samples from both cameras with NR off in camera and in ACR . The only change was resizing to the same output size { the maximum size of the E-M5 file to be precise.} and you can obviously see the extra detail in the D800 shot by quite an obvious margin.

If you suspect any form of adjustments on my part download the respective RAW files and show the results from the RAW files with zero NR either in camera or in ACR . The only adjustment I made was to reduce the D800 file to match the dimensions of the E-M5 , mainly for ease of viewing and to match the maximum output size of the E-M5. You are seldom reluctant to examine RAW files and the only reason i can see for your reluctance in this instance is that the results do not support your opinion.

As i have mentioned on a number of occasions all that concerns me is the final image,
D800 6400 VS E-M5 1600 NR OFF IN CAMERA /NR OFF IN ACR
D800 6400 VS E-M5 1600 NR OFF IN CAMERA /NR OFF IN ACR
Using the minimum default setting in Imogenic NR software you now have a cleaner D800 file that still holds more detail than the E-M5 .So once again moving away from abstractions which I have said are not my interest to an output final image . You can either have a two stop advantage in detail. Or sacrifice some of the extra detail to NR and have a two stops cleaner cleaner photo . Up to and including any size the E-M5 can output.





3628c3e05ef342bdb966606eb6f6fdc2.jpg
D800 6400 NR with imogenic still more detail
 
MatsP wrote:

If it's possible to compare cross-system from lensrentals figures, it strucks (and astonishes) me that the 12-50 doesn't seem to be too far behind 24-105L. Same reach, a little faster at the wide end, 1,5 stop slower at the long end, only somewhat less sharp. Do I read wrong?
Yes, it is possible to compare cross-system from the lensrental figures, as long as you are aware that it's always camera-lens combos rather than lenses alone that are being compared. For example, when comparing the 12-50 to the 24-105, the higher sensor resolution (20+ MP versus 16 MP) will give the 24-105 a bit of extra help.

It doesn't at all surprise me that the 12-50 does pretty well in comparison with the 24-105.
 

Anders W wrote:
jim stirling wrote:
Banger wrote:

quianp2k wrote "I don't think you can shoot sharp at 1/6 with IBIS."

What ? Really ? Do you know what you are taliking about ?

Whilst I don't have the E-M5 with it's advanced 5 axis IBIS I have used Olympus' 3 axis IBIS on my 4/3 cameras and now on my E-P3. It is no problem for me to handhold the E-P3 at 1/6 and achieve sharp enough photos to print. The photos below were taken after I read your silly comment using the lens that was currently on the E-P3 (the 4/3 25mm f2.8 pancake), which isn't an outstanding lens but still quite good, all handheld and without the benefit of the VF2 viewfinder with which I could achieve even lower shutter speeds. Nothing special about the photos, just quickies of my brick gatepost. See below,




1/6 second




1/8th second




1/10th second




1/15th second

Raws processed in OV2 with contrast +1 and sharpness set to zero, no anti-shock.

And I believe you could do better with the E-M5

Rgds, Rob
Hi Rob , those shots demonstrate both the advanatge and disadvantage of IS of any kind. While the static items in the image are reasonably sharp even the slight movement of the leaves has left them less than sharp { motion blur} . IS is only of significant advantage on static subjects as even relatively slow motion will cause blur in the images. So the scenarios where IS is an advantage are in fact reduced to shooting static subjects in circumstances when you cannot use any kind of camera support many of which are not too heavy bean bags, mini tripods etc , and support gives you the freedom to use any aperture ISO contamination you wish.
Hmm: a) I see no sign of motion blur in those shots and b) what you say applies more generally at shorter FLs only. At longer FLs, IS is certainly a significant advantage even if the subject is far from perfectly static.
The vegetation in the image is very soft , and IS only helps at longer focal lengths if your subject is not moving fast enough to allow you to shoot at lower shutterspeeds



As to tripods and bean bags, one of the reasons I went with MFT is to cut down on bulk/weight. While I am perfectly happy to use tripods for planned shots, I am not likely to walk about with anything more than an Ultra-Pod and it's far from always possible to get the shooting position and angle I want by means of that. There are also quite a few cases where the use of tripods are forbidden or otherwise unwanted/undesirable.
As I said you are now moving IS even more into a niche for your advanatge to be valuable , you need a low light scenario low enough to remove the FF high ISO noise advanatge , you need a near static subject and it needs to be somewhere where no support is allowed , stretching a bit there



There are no shortage of FF lenses with IS ranging from 16mm to 800mm both on brand and off brand ,
And quite a few without. IBIS has no problem with that though and saves us the trouble/cost/bulk/weight of building IS into every lens.
I seldom shoot below 16mm and I never shoot above 800mm , with the new Tamron 24-70VC you can have from 24mm-400mm at F2.8 . There are few examples of IS and non IS versions of lenses made at the same time using the same materials and technology to determine any significant weight gain by using IS in lenses



and Sony has IS built in to their FF cameras .
Yes. That's a good reason to go Sony if you go FF.
Only if you value IS , and shoot a lot of static subjects in low light , and need lenses wider than 16mm or over 800mm

Jim
 
jim stirling wrote:
Anders W wrote:
It follows, as I have already visually shown two times around based on crops/samples originally chosen by you, that the E-M5 has a clear lead over the D800 when the two are shot (for the same DoF) at ISO 1600 and ISO 6400, respectively.
Anders I have posted several examples using samples taken in reasonably controlled circumstances that very clearly demonstrate the advantages that the extra detail allows. With the D800 you can have either. The sample below is a straight crop of the RAW samples from both cameras with NR off in camera and in ACR . The only change was resizing to the same output size { the maximum size of the E-M5 file to be precise.} and you can obviously see the extra detail in the D800 shot by quite an obvious margin.

If you suspect any form of adjustments on my part download the respective RAW files and show the results from the RAW files with zero NR either in camera or in ACR . The only adjustment I made was to reduce the D800 file to match the dimensions of the E-M5 , mainly for ease of viewing and to match the maximum output size of the E-M5. You are seldom reluctant to examine RAW files and the only reason i can see for your reluctance in this instance is that the results do not support your opinion.
The only reason I am reluctant is that this is the third time around. I just don't want take the trouble once more after having done it twice already. On top of that you are now using NR software to which I don't have access (and so can't retrace your footsteps) and use source material not appropriate for the task of resolution testing. The files you use are designed to test for noise (as indicated by the section of the Focus Numérique reviews from which you downloaded them). They are not designed to serve as resolution tests.

Did you check which lenses were used on the E-M5 and the D800? Do you consider the two lenses and the apertures at which they were shot equivalent?

Could you please show us crops from both cameras displaying the model car at the bottom right of the frame? What does that example tell you?
As i have mentioned on a number of occasions all that concerns me is the final image,
D800 6400 VS E-M5 1600 NR OFF IN CAMERA /NR OFF IN ACR
D800 6400 VS E-M5 1600 NR OFF IN CAMERA /NR OFF IN ACR
Using the minimum default setting in Imogenic NR software you now have a cleaner D800 file that still holds more detail than the E-M5 .So once again moving away from abstractions which I have said are not my interest to an output final image . You can either have a two stop advantage in detail. Or sacrifice some of the extra detail to NR and have a two stops cleaner cleaner photo . Up to and including any size the E-M5 can output.

3628c3e05ef342bdb966606eb6f6fdc2.jpg
D800 6400 NR with imogenic still more detail
 
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Character? That can mean alot of things. A man with a big nose has character. Perhaps you mean some subjective mysterious quality that an otherwise dull tool creates almost by magic. In my book character is called wishful thinking. It's called hoofing it to find the better subject to make up for the lack of a quality lens. All which is find and dandy, but I smell some sour grapes, as if you were spurned by a beautiful (75mm lens) girl.
 
jim stirling wrote:
Anders W wrote:
jim stirling wrote:
Banger wrote:

quianp2k wrote "I don't think you can shoot sharp at 1/6 with IBIS."

What ? Really ? Do you know what you are taliking about ?

Whilst I don't have the E-M5 with it's advanced 5 axis IBIS I have used Olympus' 3 axis IBIS on my 4/3 cameras and now on my E-P3. It is no problem for me to handhold the E-P3 at 1/6 and achieve sharp enough photos to print. The photos below were taken after I read your silly comment using the lens that was currently on the E-P3 (the 4/3 25mm f2.8 pancake), which isn't an outstanding lens but still quite good, all handheld and without the benefit of the VF2 viewfinder with which I could achieve even lower shutter speeds. Nothing special about the photos, just quickies of my brick gatepost. See below,




1/6 second




1/8th second




1/10th second




1/15th second

Raws processed in OV2 with contrast +1 and sharpness set to zero, no anti-shock.

And I believe you could do better with the E-M5

Rgds, Rob
Hi Rob , those shots demonstrate both the advanatge and disadvantage of IS of any kind. While the static items in the image are reasonably sharp even the slight movement of the leaves has left them less than sharp { motion blur} . IS is only of significant advantage on static subjects as even relatively slow motion will cause blur in the images. So the scenarios where IS is an advantage are in fact reduced to shooting static subjects in circumstances when you cannot use any kind of camera support many of which are not too heavy bean bags, mini tripods etc , and support gives you the freedom to use any aperture ISO contamination you wish.
Hmm: a) I see no sign of motion blur in those shots and b) what you say applies more generally at shorter FLs only. At longer FLs, IS is certainly a significant advantage even if the subject is far from perfectly static.
The vegetation in the image is very soft , and IS only helps at longer focal lengths if your subject is not moving fast enough to allow you to shoot at lower shutterspeeds
Whatever softness you can see in the vegetation is not due to subject movement. Not all of the vegetations is in perfect focus.
As to tripods and bean bags, one of the reasons I went with MFT is to cut down on bulk/weight. While I am perfectly happy to use tripods for planned shots, I am not likely to walk about with anything more than an Ultra-Pod and it's far from always possible to get the shooting position and angle I want by means of that. There are also quite a few cases where the use of tripods are forbidden or otherwise unwanted/undesirable.
As I said you are now moving IS even more into a niche for your advanatge to be valuable , you need a low light scenario low enough to remove the FF high ISO noise advanatge , you need a near static subject and it needs to be somewhere where no support is allowed , stretching a bit there
Not at all. I was just pointing out the general advantages of IS.

The FF high-ISO advantage is there when DoF is not in short supply and reversed (in comparison with most FF cameras) into an MFT advantage when it is. This holds regardless of whether the subject is static or not and whether you have IS or not.
There are no shortage of FF lenses with IS ranging from 16mm to 800mm both on brand and off brand ,
And quite a few without. IBIS has no problem with that though and saves us the trouble/cost/bulk/weight of building IS into every lens.
I seldom shoot below 16mm and I never shoot above 800mm , with the new Tamron 24-70VC you can have from 24mm-400mm at F2.8 .
So what? You can't have it with fast small primes as you can with the E-M5.
There are few examples of IS and non IS versions of lenses made at the same time using the same materials and technology to determine any significant weight gain by using IS in lenses
and Sony has IS built in to their FF cameras .
Yes. That's a good reason to go Sony if you go FF.
Only if you value IS , and shoot a lot of static subjects in low light , and need lenses wider than 16mm or over 800mm
See above.
 
Banger wrote:

quianp2k wrote "I don't think you can shoot sharp at 1/6 with IBIS."

What ? Really ? Do you know what you are taliking about ?
These photos are not tack sharp on my standard and there are no much textual details on the bricks.
Whilst I don't have the E-M5 with it's advanced 5 axis IBIS I have used Olympus' 3 axis IBIS on my 4/3 cameras and now on my E-P3. It is no problem for me to handhold the E-P3 at 1/6 and achieve sharp enough photos to print. The photos below were taken after I read your silly comment using the lens that was currently on the E-P3 (the 4/3 25mm f2.8 pancake), which isn't an outstanding lens but still quite good, all handheld and without the benefit of the VF2 viewfinder with which I could achieve even lower shutter speeds. Nothing special about the photos, just quickies of my brick gatepost. See below,
http://www.digitalrev.com/article/lens-vs-sensor-shift-image/MzU4Mg_A_A

Read again. IBIS is only relative effective in short focus length lenses. It's not effective for longer tele lenses as the sensor simply unable to shift in long length. As I said I can shoot 70-200L/2.8 IS II at 200mm hand-held at 1/40 everytime and 1/30 most times.

You know you can push by using any kinds of image stabilization. I also can push IS from Canon lenses with IS and have more room to push further. In general lens-based IS/VR is still superior than IBIS especially in long tele lenses. Try 300mm lens you will know to compare to Canon 300L/2.8 IS II that has much superior lens based IS.

1/6 second




1/8th second




1/10th second




1/15th second

Raws processed in OV2 with contrast +1 and sharpness set to zero, no anti-shock.

And I believe you could do better with the E-M5

Rgds, Rob
--
http://qianp2k.zenfolio.com/
 
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