ShotFromTheSidewalk
Senior Member
everything you claim not to like, i love! funny huh?
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Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?
- Thread starter OutOfFocus student
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olyflyer
Forum Pro
I don't know about the D600, but the D800 Auto ISO handling is very logical and extremely easy to use. In fact, it is a very intelligent design.
If you turn off Auto ISO the camera returns to fixed ISO, to the last used value. This is very important, without that it would be very difficult to use and always very confusing to switch between Auto and fixed ISO. The most recent is NOT minimum ISO, it is the most recent you have had set before switching to Auto ISO.
I do. Ho would YOU want it to work? Where should the camera go when you switch off Auto ISO?
In the D800 it requires only one wheel to turn off Auto ISO, but sure, if you are not happy with the last used ISO then you must turn the other wheel as well. Why is that a problem and how would you like to be changed?
In which way is it inconsistent? The only difference is that in M mode I must press the ISO button before I can use the dials to change the ISO and to switch from Auto to fixed ISO. It must be that way because in M mode I want the dials to default to shutter speed and aperture. In A mode I don't have to press the ISO button to change the fixed ISO value, only if I want to switch from Auto ISO to fixed, because the front dial is controlling the aperture by default in A mode.
So, where is the inconsistency in the D600?
I think you are just frustrated and overreacting because you are new with the camera, perhaps also new to DSLRs.
I am also pretty sure that Nikon does not employ incompetent people in any higher number and that the UI of the cameras are discussed and decided in a very competent group, so even if there would be one or two incompetent designers they are balanced against the others. The design is tested by both the designers and also separate test teams, independent from the designers. This is the way design works in any larger company. Never the less, if you have a good idea on how to improve you are welcome to contribute to the future designs. Just send them a mail and explain how you think it should work and explain why it is better than their own design. Don't call them incompetent in your mail, be polite and you might be taken seriously.
Pradipta Dutta
Veteran Member
I suggest you read page 112 of the D800 User Manual that clearly says, "the minimum value for auto ISO sensitivity is automatically set to ISO 100"
olyflyer
Forum Pro
OK, then the manual is wrong because I tested this during a sunny day outdoors, set the ISO sensitivity to ISO800 Maximum to ISO3200 and using the 50/1.4G. I am pretty sure that the camera used ISO800 as long as it did not result in overexposure and once the ISO800 was too much the ISO was lowered by the camera until it reached ISO100. Perhaps they mean that the ISO will never go below ISO100 in auto ISO, I don't know, but the ISO sensitivity sets the minimum ISO for auto ISO and is not fixed the way I see it. The "floor" is fixed, just like the maximum, it can not be set higher than ISO6400, but that's all.
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Pradipta Dutta
Veteran Member
I was also under the same impression as you are. But after a long Auto ISO thread that was started by Jim Pierce back in December, I tested the limits and proved that the user manual is indeed correct. You just don't encounter it very often.
That is part of the algorithm.
It means exactly what is said in the user manual - ISO varies between the Minimum of 100 ISO and the maximum as you set in the Camera.
olyflyer
Forum Pro
ISO varies between your base ISO and the maximum as you set in the camera. Base is is set by what is called "ISO sensitivity" in the same menu, or through using the back dial.
I just did a test AGAIN with the following set-up...
- ISO sensitivity: 800
- Maximum ISO for Auto ISO 3200
- Camera in Aperture priority
- Lens at f/4
- Sunny weather outside
- Lens: 24-120/4
I don't know what the results of that thread you mentioned was, but the above is the 100% accurate description of how the ISO values are handled by the D800 in Auto ISO. If that is not the way your camera behaves then I would be very surprised. In other words, the manual may be right, but your interpretation is wrong. "ISO varies between the Minimum of 100 ISO and the maximum as you set in the camera." is only your interpretation, I can't find that in the manual. The manual says: "the minimum value for auto ISO sensitivity is automatically set to ISO 100" and my interpretation is that it will NEVER go below ISO100 in Auto ISO, so it will NEVER use ISO50, even if using ISO100 results in overexposure no matter what your base ISO for Auto ISO is.
Like I said, it is very easy to test if you don't believe me. I doubt that my camera is unique in this respect, so yours should work the same way, but you must make sure you are using the right setup.
Pradipta Dutta
Veteran Member
No. ISO varies between 100 and max value set in the camera. Period.
Do this simple test -
- Set Max ISO for Auto ISO to 6400
- Set camera to Manual exposure with Aperture F/8 and Shutter Speed 1/125 sec
- Set base ISO in camera to 3200
- Now go out in bright conditions and shoot
- Then report back what ISO values were selected by the camera
Repeat the test with Aperture set to F/22 and Shutter Speed to 1/8000. What you will notice is the ISO maxes out at 6400 even though the images are under exposed. What this whole exercise proves is ISO varies between 100 and max value set in the camera in Auto ISO mode.
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pavi1
Veteran Member
Pradipta Dutta
Veteran Member
Correct. But did you notice that the same thing does not happen on the other side. That is, the ISO never goes higher than the max value set to avoid under exposure. What it means is that the camera operates between a max and min value and the min value is lower than the base value set. Since Nikon user manuals have multiple times (D800 user manual says min value is always 100, D3 user manual says min value is always 200) listed it, there is no reason to believe it is wrong. Let's not fool ourselves.
pavi1
Veteran Member
Correct
Yes but only after max shutter reached. This is how I want it. Guess I got lucky and those who want it otherwise got unlucky. There are other things that do not work my preferred way so I did not get everything my way.
OutOfFocus student
Active member
I see no point in minimum ISO for it's own sake ... if you really want to add noise or otherwise degrade the image you can very easily do that in post.
OutOfFocus student
Active member
1. I agree (and know) that it will go below MIN ISO if the shutter speed has hit its ceiling. But that's essentially irrelevant for most shooting conditions.
2. You need to set it to ISO 100 before you can turn it off. That's why two wheels are necessary and you want is lost setting is lost.
3. I still have not heard a single good reason to have ISO lower bounded (there are many good reasons to have it otherwise). And anyone who finds this sensible please explain why in M and A modes it behaves differently?
This is pure nonsense that (as far as I know) no other manufacturer has. The only good thing about this system is that AutoISO is flexible enough that I almost never need to use manual ISO so I use manual ISO only in M which is implemented in a logical way.
2. You need to set it to ISO 100 before you can turn it off. That's why two wheels are necessary and you want is lost setting is lost.
3. I still have not heard a single good reason to have ISO lower bounded (there are many good reasons to have it otherwise). And anyone who finds this sensible please explain why in M and A modes it behaves differently?
This is pure nonsense that (as far as I know) no other manufacturer has. The only good thing about this system is that AutoISO is flexible enough that I almost never need to use manual ISO so I use manual ISO only in M which is implemented in a logical way.
OutOfFocus student
Active member
Good for you! I wonder if you could explain why do you love it (unless your love is unconditional and unrelated to usability)
kiirokurisu
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In this case your argument of usability falls down. The usability is reduced in your particular use case, but other use cases are improved. This is the kind of choice designers make in every aspect of software and hardware design. If you don't like the way the device functions, there are other manufacturers who will be glad of your custom.
OutOfFocus student
Active member
All you said is "yours is bad, mine is good and that's how it was designed". These are all empty words. Do you switch between manual and auto ISO often? When exactly do you want to make sure you have a minimum ISO speed and why? The only use for minimum ISO I can imagine is to make sure that the shutter speed is always high ... but there is already a min shutter setting so that's both redundant and perverse way to control shutter.
BTW, dpreview appears to have the same view as me of what is the sensible way to use AutoISO. Here is a quote from their review of D600:
"Be aware though that the camera will use the currently-set ISO sensitivity as its minimum value, so enabling Auto ISO with a value of ISO 100 is, in most cases, the most sensible option"
As a said, luckily I can avoid using manual ISO in A mode most of the time so that's not a deal breaker for me. But I'm trying to figure out if anyone actually has any good ideas why Nikon designed it like this.
You know, given what we're usually seeing from camera manufacturers, I'm fairly certain you won't find an answer. They're just quite stupid when it comes to ergonomics / user interface decisions. As an illustration, I'm still puzzled as to why Nikon hasn't implemented something similar to the D7000's U1 and U2 modes on the D800, despite the latter being released three years after. Or at least not separating memory banks into two different ones (custom and shooting banks).
I wouldn't try to make sense of a decision that most likely wasn't thought through in the first place.
TheronFamily
Forum Pro
Shutter speed always high?
Consistent flash exposure would be prone to ISO being "known" - IOW, the limit YOU set it to (minimum)
pavi1
Veteran Member
They designed it that way because that is how it should be.. If I set min ISO 800 and turn on auto ISO, I do not want the ISO to go below 800 unless absolutely necessary because that is what I have told the camera to do. You want the camera to ignore my command and use whatever it chooses.
alan54g
Forum Enthusiast
Why not use most recent settings.
I didn't say that you would use a minimum ISO to add noise. The reason you may want to keep a minimum ISO of 1600 is in order to keep your shutter speeds high to stop action.
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