EinsteinsGhost
Forum Pro
1- You don't know that you can select ISO 6400 in X100?
It does. If you respond to it, you will learn why I asked. Try again.
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Dxomark "measured" ISO vs Manufacturer ISO
- Thread starter ET2
- Start date
I did but you need to go back and read.
well.. I found more. waiting for you to proof me wrong.
TrojMacReady
Veteran Member
Endos wrote:
TrojMacReady wrote:
Endos wrote:
TrojMacReady wrote:
Endos wrote:
TrojMacReady wrote:
Endos wrote:
TrojMacReady wrote:
Endos wrote:
EinsteinsGhost wrote:
Endos wrote:
Are you kidding? Both links says nothing that disagree with what I'm saying here.Cudacke wrote:
Both DXO and other people had explained this, please read and learn the knowledge before you start talking nonsense.
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/09/why-iso-isnt-iso.html
News
www.dxomark.com
Numerical
Please try to read and learn the knowledge (from the same authors):
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Insights/Pushed-ISO-Let-s-make-it-clear
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/10/raw-is-not-raw.html
Again... the lies....Endos wrote:
The Fuji X100 sensor doesn't support ISO6400. His maximum ISO is 1600 (measured ISO 1000). Then in reality when you choose ISO 6400 - F8 - 1 / 1000 the camera uses ISO 1600 - F8 - 1 / 1000 The result is obviously 2 stops underexposed:
ISO 1600
ISO 6400. 2 stops underexposed compared with the ISO 1600 image.
You can download the RAW files from imaging-resource and with any RAW analyzer test it for yourself (don't use a RAW converter, they push the exposure to compensate).
That question has nothing to do with the discussion, but well, I think it's a bad thing because having clipped highlights with the "default exposure" is not a good idea.
A77 test result clearly shows that A77's measured ISO 50 is above its manufacturer ISO and also happened to has the highest DR and tonal range amount all other ISO setting.
Exposure is about how you as a photographer learn how to use the equipment.
And as you said below. yea. Learn how to get the best DR out of it.
What default exposure! Auto mode? The DXO result should help you a lot include not to clip your highlight at whatever the "Exposure" you determine to set on your camera settings......
Yes, the firmware allows you to select ISO 6400, but as the sensor doesn't support it, internally it uses ISO 1600.
Do you understand the histograms that I showed to you?
It doesn't, and I do not like riddles. Try you if you want.
Of course, because the measured ISO 50 is lower that the measured ISO in all other ISOs. What is uncommon here?Cudacke wrote:
Again... the lies....Endos wrote:
The Fuji X100 sensor doesn't support ISO6400. His maximum ISO is 1600 (measured ISO 1000). Then in reality when you choose ISO 6400 - F8 - 1 / 1000 the camera uses ISO 1600 - F8 - 1 / 1000 The result is obviously 2 stops underexposed:
ISO 1600
ISO 6400. 2 stops underexposed compared with the ISO 1600 image.
You can download the RAW files from imaging-resource and with any RAW analyzer test it for yourself (don't use a RAW converter, they push the exposure to compensate).
That question has nothing to do with the discussion, but well, I think it's a bad thing because having clipped highlights with the "default exposure" is not a good idea.
A77 test result clearly shows that A77's measured ISO 50 is above its manufacturer ISO and also happened to has the highest DR and tonal range amount all other ISO setting.
I quoted it because it's unclear what I mean. Talking about the A77 for example, if you has an ETTR exposure (of the RAW file as showed in a RAW analyzer) at ISO 100 for example, at a given aperture and shutter speed, if you changes to ISO 50 with the half shutter speed and the same aperture, as a result the image will have clipped highlights.
--
Regards,
Juan
500px
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Dirk W
Senior Member
As I understand, the ISO values for digital cameras are set by the manufacturers, looking at how the exposure of the picture gets (or saturation) at a given light. They do NOT set the ISOs according to a certain noise level. For me that was difficult to understand, because I thought (wrongly), similar to film, a certain level of sensor amplifying/noise must always be the same ISO value for each camera.
Therefore, for the SLTs, to achieve the same exposure level, SONY has to amplify the sensor somewhat higher due to the SLT-light loss, which explains (mainly) why at the same ISO-value at different cameras, SLTs produce more noise. This becomes especially obvious at cameras with the same sensor, e.g. A77 and NEX7.
As a consequence, I don't think (any more - I used to think so before I understood that) that SONY tricks us by setting the ISO-values of the SLTs lower than they should. It's just the method: amplify the sensor until the exposure is right, and BANG that's 100ISO or whatever. Nothing wrong with that, it's the tuning method.
Based on that, DxO gives a comparable value for all cameras: They measure the ISO setting for the same noise level, i.e. they look at the noise level at given other settings and exposure. Meaning that, for keeping the same noise level, the A99 can be set to 1555 ISO, but the D800 can be set to ISO 2358. And ISO801 at the A77, and ISO1017 at the NEX7.
Therefore, for the SLTs, to achieve the same exposure level, SONY has to amplify the sensor somewhat higher due to the SLT-light loss, which explains (mainly) why at the same ISO-value at different cameras, SLTs produce more noise. This becomes especially obvious at cameras with the same sensor, e.g. A77 and NEX7.
As a consequence, I don't think (any more - I used to think so before I understood that) that SONY tricks us by setting the ISO-values of the SLTs lower than they should. It's just the method: amplify the sensor until the exposure is right, and BANG that's 100ISO or whatever. Nothing wrong with that, it's the tuning method.
Based on that, DxO gives a comparable value for all cameras: They measure the ISO setting for the same noise level, i.e. they look at the noise level at given other settings and exposure. Meaning that, for keeping the same noise level, the A99 can be set to 1555 ISO, but the D800 can be set to ISO 2358. And ISO801 at the A77, and ISO1017 at the NEX7.
Last edited:
EinsteinsGhost
Forum Pro
Your histograms are meaningless, and irrelevant. Instead, now explain to me, what do you mean by "sensor doesn't support it". Is there an ISO that the sensor supports, and that any other ISO is only due to firmware? Do you always look for exposure in the same ISO, regardless?
The question would be a riddle to you, if you don't understand what DXO measures, and what a camera ISO is. Or, that you do understand but would rather avoid responding to it, because it wouldn't help the dozens of posts you're put forth to "prove it wrong".
As they prove I'm right, they are meaningless and irrelevant, LOL!!
Well, if you don't understand that histograms, there is nothing I can do.
If you want to try to read this Guillermo Luijk article , it talks about the DxO ISO Sensitivity with both cameras exposed here, the X100 and the EP-1.
Again... you tried to change topic when the hole in your lies pop.Endos wrote:
Of course, because the measured ISO 50 is lower that the measured ISO in all other ISOs. What is uncommon here?Cudacke wrote:
Again... the lies....Endos wrote:
The Fuji X100 sensor doesn't support ISO6400. His maximum ISO is 1600 (measured ISO 1000). Then in reality when you choose ISO 6400 - F8 - 1 / 1000 the camera uses ISO 1600 - F8 - 1 / 1000 The result is obviously 2 stops underexposed:
ISO 1600
ISO 6400. 2 stops underexposed compared with the ISO 1600 image.
You can download the RAW files from imaging-resource and with any RAW analyzer test it for yourself (don't use a RAW converter, they push the exposure to compensate).
That question has nothing to do with the discussion, but well, I think it's a bad thing because having clipped highlights with the "default exposure" is not a good idea.
A77 test result clearly shows that A77's measured ISO 50 is above its manufacturer ISO and also happened to has the highest DR and tonal range amount all other ISO setting.
"clipped highlights with the "default exposure" is not a good idea."
The problem is what you mean is nonsense a lot of the time.
The lie is that you just said you can learn from DXO's result.
"Maybe don't help you, or the OP, but it helps me a lot. My photos have the maximum DR and lower noise that my camera sensor can get. "
So learn from it. don't clip high when you use ISO 50 because it supposed to have better DR!
What "default exposure"? You as a photographer supposed to determine the exposure.
for example from one of your pictures.
Its clipping highlights is because the default exposure failed? or you set the exposure to have the result?
500px
come on do what you said.. learn from the DXO result. have better DR at ISO50 with your A77.... if you have one!
Maybe is because you have not understood anything I've written.Cudacke wrote:
Again... you tried to change topic when the hole in your lies pop.Endos wrote:
Of course, because the measured ISO 50 is lower that the measured ISO in all other ISOs. What is uncommon here?Cudacke wrote:
Again... the lies....Endos wrote:
The Fuji X100 sensor doesn't support ISO6400. His maximum ISO is 1600 (measured ISO 1000). Then in reality when you choose ISO 6400 - F8 - 1 / 1000 the camera uses ISO 1600 - F8 - 1 / 1000 The result is obviously 2 stops underexposed:
ISO 1600
ISO 6400. 2 stops underexposed compared with the ISO 1600 image.
You can download the RAW files from imaging-resource and with any RAW analyzer test it for yourself (don't use a RAW converter, they push the exposure to compensate).
That question has nothing to do with the discussion, but well, I think it's a bad thing because having clipped highlights with the "default exposure" is not a good idea.
A77 test result clearly shows that A77's measured ISO 50 is above its manufacturer ISO and also happened to has the highest DR and tonal range amount all other ISO setting.
"clipped highlights with the "default exposure" is not a good idea."
The problem is what you mean is nonsense a lot of the time.
Of course, I shoot always in Manual Exposure mode. I never use extended ISOs, at least not the ones I'm aware that are extended. I don't like to change my exposure settings if I need to change the ISO, or get worse results for using extended ISOs.
The RAW file from this image has not clipped highlights, it has the shadows clipped by a insignificant 0.1% in the red channel. And of course I select the exposure, as always I do.
I don't have an A77, I don't like SLTs, they are a step backwards in image quality and I don't like EVFs in his current state, but that's another question. If I would have one, I would never use ISO 50.
--
Regards,
Juan
500px
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EinsteinsGhost
Forum Pro
Endos wrote:
As they prove I'm right, they are meaningless and irrelevant, LOL!!
Well, if you don't understand that histograms, there is nothing I can do.
If you want to try to read this Guillermo Luijk article , it talks about the DxO ISO Sensitivity with both cameras exposed here, the X100 and the EP-1.
EinsteinsGhost wrote:
Snipping out relevance to deflect is your specialty. Here, agaon for your inconvenience...Endos wrote:
As they prove I'm right, they are meaningless and irrelevant, LOL!!
Well, if you don't understand that histograms, there is nothing I can do.
If you want to try to read this Guillermo Luijk article , it talks about the DxO ISO Sensitivity with both cameras exposed here, the X100 and the EP-1.
--
Regards,
Juan
http://500px.com/endosphoto
http://www.facebook.com/endosphotography
Your histograms are meaningless, and irrelevant. Instead, now explain to me, what do you mean by "sensor doesn't support it". Is there an ISO that the sensor supports, and that any other ISO is only due to firmware?
Exactly: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=53451.0
And now, the relevant and useful histograms, but from the EPL1:
ISO 200 - 1/50
ISO 100 - 1/25 (1 stop overexposed)
As you see, the EPL1 sensor do not support ISO 100 and as ISO 200 is used the last image is 1 stop overexposed compared with the ISO 100 image. You can download the RAW files from imaging-resource if you want and test it for yourself.
--
Regards,
Juan
500px
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EinsteinsGhost
Forum Pro
Stop cherry picking for the sake of argument. You point would be valid at ANY ISO. No? in other words, you'd be better served explaining what DXO measures AND what is camera ISO (for example why they are different). Can you do that?Endos wrote:
Exactly: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=53451.0EinsteinsGhost wrote:
Snipping out relevance to deflect is your specialty. Here, agaon for your inconvenience...Endos wrote:
As they prove I'm right, they are meaningless and irrelevant, LOL!!
Well, if you don't understand that histograms, there is nothing I can do.
If you want to try to read this Guillermo Luijk article , it talks about the DxO ISO Sensitivity with both cameras exposed here, the X100 and the EP-1.
--
Regards,
Juan
http://500px.com/endosphoto
http://www.facebook.com/endosphotography
Your histograms are meaningless, and irrelevant. Instead, now explain to me, what do you mean by "sensor doesn't support it". Is there an ISO that the sensor supports, and that any other ISO is only due to firmware?
And now, the relevant and useful histograms, but from the EPL1:
ISO 200 - 1/50
ISO 100 - 1/25 (1 stop overexposed)
As you see, the EPL1 sensor do not support ISO 100 and as ISO 200 is used the last image is 1 stop overexposed compared with the ISO 100 image. You can download the RAW files from imaging-resource if you want and test it for yourself.
--
Sony A55, Sony NEX-3, Sony F828
Last edited:
Manufacturer ISO is what you selects in your camera, and measured ISO is the real ISO selected.EinsteinsGhost wrote:
Stop cherry picking for the sake of argument. You point would be valid at ANY ISO. No? in other words, you'd be better served explaining what DXO measures AND what is camera ISO (for example why they are different). Can you do that?Endos wrote:
Exactly: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=53451.0EinsteinsGhost wrote:
Snipping out relevance to deflect is your specialty. Here, agaon for your inconvenience...Endos wrote:
As they prove I'm right, they are meaningless and irrelevant, LOL!!
Well, if you don't understand that histograms, there is nothing I can do.
If you want to try to read this Guillermo Luijk article , it talks about the DxO ISO Sensitivity with both cameras exposed here, the X100 and the EP-1.
--
Regards,
Juan
http://500px.com/endosphoto
http://www.facebook.com/endosphotography
Your histograms are meaningless, and irrelevant. Instead, now explain to me, what do you mean by "sensor doesn't support it". Is there an ISO that the sensor supports, and that any other ISO is only due to firmware?
And now, the relevant and useful histograms, but from the EPL1:
ISO 200 - 1/50
ISO 100 - 1/25 (1 stop overexposed)
As you see, the EPL1 sensor do not support ISO 100 and as ISO 200 is used the last image is 1 stop overexposed compared with the ISO 100 image. You can download the RAW files from imaging-resource if you want and test it for yourself.
--
Sony A55, Sony NEX-3, Sony F828
Let's assume that manufacturer ISO matches the sunny f/16 rule, and with that you get a correct exposure. If measured ISO is lower than the manufacturer ISO (lower sensor gain) then the RAW file will be underexposed. If it's higher (higher sensor gain), then the RAW file will be overexposed. Lower sensor gains have lower noise and thats why the A99 seems to have lower noise than the A900, but they are about the same.
Remember, that I'm talking about RAW files as the come from the camera, before any RAW converter applies gains, curves, etc.
--
Regards,
Juan
500px
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EinsteinsGhost
Forum Pro
What do you mean by "measured ISO"?Endos wrote:
Manufacturer ISO is what you selects in your camera, and measured ISO is the real ISO selected.EinsteinsGhost wrote:
Stop cherry picking for the sake of argument. You point would be valid at ANY ISO. No? in other words, you'd be better served explaining what DXO measures AND what is camera ISO (for example why they are different). Can you do that?Endos wrote:
Exactly: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=53451.0EinsteinsGhost wrote:
Snipping out relevance to deflect is your specialty. Here, agaon for your inconvenience...Endos wrote:
As they prove I'm right, they are meaningless and irrelevant, LOL!!
Well, if you don't understand that histograms, there is nothing I can do.
If you want to try to read this Guillermo Luijk article , it talks about the DxO ISO Sensitivity with both cameras exposed here, the X100 and the EP-1.
--
Regards,
Juan
http://500px.com/endosphoto
http://www.facebook.com/endosphotography
Your histograms are meaningless, and irrelevant. Instead, now explain to me, what do you mean by "sensor doesn't support it". Is there an ISO that the sensor supports, and that any other ISO is only due to firmware?
And now, the relevant and useful histograms, but from the EPL1:
ISO 200 - 1/50
ISO 100 - 1/25 (1 stop overexposed)
As you see, the EPL1 sensor do not support ISO 100 and as ISO 200 is used the last image is 1 stop overexposed compared with the ISO 100 image. You can download the RAW files from imaging-resource if you want and test it for yourself.
--
Sony A55, Sony NEX-3, Sony F828
Let's assume that manufacturer ISO matches the sunny f/16 rule, and with that you get a correct exposure. If measured ISO is lower than the manufacturer ISO (lower sensor gain) then the RAW file will be underexposed. If it's higher (higher sensor gain), then the RAW file will be overexposed. Lower sensor gains have lower noise and thats why the A99 seems to have lower noise than the A900, but they are about the same.
Remember, that I'm talking about RAW files as the come from the camera, before any RAW converter applies gains, curves, etc.
--
Sony A55, Sony NEX-3, Sony F828
Too bad your final image clearly clipped a lot!Endos wrote:
Maybe is because you have not understood anything I've written.Cudacke wrote:
Again... you tried to change topic when the hole in your lies pop.Endos wrote:
Of course, because the measured ISO 50 is lower that the measured ISO in all other ISOs. What is uncommon here?Cudacke wrote:
Again... the lies....Endos wrote:
The Fuji X100 sensor doesn't support ISO6400. His maximum ISO is 1600 (measured ISO 1000). Then in reality when you choose ISO 6400 - F8 - 1 / 1000 the camera uses ISO 1600 - F8 - 1 / 1000 The result is obviously 2 stops underexposed:
ISO 1600
ISO 6400. 2 stops underexposed compared with the ISO 1600 image.
You can download the RAW files from imaging-resource and with any RAW analyzer test it for yourself (don't use a RAW converter, they push the exposure to compensate).
That question has nothing to do with the discussion, but well, I think it's a bad thing because having clipped highlights with the "default exposure" is not a good idea.
A77 test result clearly shows that A77's measured ISO 50 is above its manufacturer ISO and also happened to has the highest DR and tonal range amount all other ISO setting.
"clipped highlights with the "default exposure" is not a good idea."
The problem is what you mean is nonsense a lot of the time.
Of course, I shoot always in Manual Exposure mode. I never use extended ISOs, at least not the ones I'm aware that are extended. I don't like to change my exposure settings if I need to change the ISO, or get worse results for using extended ISOs.
The RAW file from this image has not clipped highlights, it has the shadows clipped by a insignificant 0.1% in the red channel. And of course I select the exposure, as always I do.
Please try harder next time!
Good. As you clearly showed you don't have the tool, not much useful thing you can say about it either as I can tell from all your false info.
Again, try harder next time.
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