What is the point of the HYBRID OVF?

MayaTlab0 said:

MayaTlab0 wrote:

The point is to enjoy the benefits of a rangefinder-like viewfinder :

- brightest optical viewfinder available now (no lag, yet not as dim as DSLRs VF in the dark).

- ability to see beyond the framelines.

- no viewfinder blackout.

These are all points you can't have with other types of viewfinders, so it still has a number competitive advantages that make it relevant even today.

Most of these advantages become useful, IMHO, mostly for street photography or associated genres.

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shigzeo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

I'm not interested in mechanical coupling, merely the ability to show focus in the OVF. It is a HYBRID viewfinder with overlay information from the EVF possible. The EVF can focus. A portion of the EVF just for focusing could be overlaid onto the OVF so that the OVF could still be used as a focusing mechanism.

That is why I don't understand what the use of the HYBRID portion is if all it does is show horizon, exposure, and a few other things. They could be done below or above with a little squinting. Fuji have squandered what should be the most precious commodity in the X100 and X-Pro.

HYBRID with dull, obtrusive information is a poor substitute for one that could be used to take photos in the traditional way of shooting.

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shigzeo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

Anyone who uses non-X lenses knows this: there is no way to focus a lens using the X-Pro via the OVF. You can do hyper focal guesses, but never be 100% sure of focus because the 'HYBRID' OVF employs no focus aids.

Why is this?

Horizon, white/black levels, ISO, etc., great, but what about focusing?

Why is there a camera that looks like a rangefinder with a glass eye that doesn't allow focusing of a lens manually through that bit of glass? The information about the split image in the new 100s was fun until it seemed it only works in the EVF or the LCD.

They HYBRID portion of the OVF should bear out like this: overlay the split image onto the glass. Keep it in the centre, fine. But make it possible to look into real light, not bloody pixels, to focus.

Fuji's lenses are 100% SLR style lenses with coupled/automatic aperture, but the camera looks like a rangefinder. The problem is that the niceties of a rangefinder are completely absent unless you pretend your fuji lenses are rangefinder lenses and you use AF. If not, you are out of luck and have to resort to the EVF.

The look of the X-Pro is the only advance I can see for users of non-Fuji glass. Otherwise, X-E seems the obvious choice. It shouldn't be. Some of us want the metal body and would love to use the (okay so it's small and chintzy and looks like looking through a tunnel) OVF in some meaningful way other than a reason to keep a glass cleaning cloth handy.

Will this functionality ever come? If not, what is the bloody point of the OVF other than looks.

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shigzeo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

shigzeo said:

MayaTlab0 wrote:

The point is to enjoy the benefits of a rangefinder-like viewfinder :

- brightest optical viewfinder available now (no lag, yet not as dim as DSLRs VF in the dark).

- ability to see beyond the framelines.

- no viewfinder blackout.

These are all points you can't have with other types of viewfinders, so it still has a number competitive advantages that make it relevant even today.

Most of these advantages become useful, IMHO, mostly for street photography or associated genres.

Click to expand...

I have three rangefinders. Each are coupled to the lens, or have a built-in lens. The X series has none of the benefits of manual focusing available in the OVF - which it could if it had an overlay option in the OVF alongside horizon, exposure, etc.

It's not that I'm unfamiliar with OVFs or rangefinder windows - everyone knows the benefits and disadvantages of those. It's that this is a HYBRID with functionality that could overlay part of the focus function of the EVF in manual mode in the OVF and it doesn't. It's been nearly two years that the X100 has been out and still, no hint of firmware to use what can be done.

It isn't coupling or triangulation, it's merely a window that previews focus for a specific area. It's been done since the early 2000's in EVF's of certain cameras. It can be done in the OVF. But it's not.

The thing is that other than that: image quality, handling, ergonomics, and the immediacy of having exposure and compensation plus threaded shutter release at your finger tips and having the settings known prior to turning on the camera - things every modern camera lacks - those things are what makes the Fuji special. But in order to make a perfect a camera with traditional, solid layout, you need to first make sure that all parts are in some sort of agreement. Currently, the OVF is too small and tunnel-vision like. It is less clear than the X100.

But even the X100's hybrid OVF lacks the basic abilities that all cameras it takes its looks from have. That is focusing via the lens and not the computer. Only the Contax G1 had computer focusing. Fuji tout the hybrid OVF but they are not using it to anywhere near its full and rightful ability.

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hexxthalion said:

hexxthalion wrote:

hexxthalion said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

I'm not interested in mechanical coupling, merely the ability to show focus in the OVF. It is a HYBRID viewfinder with overlay information from the EVF possible. The EVF can focus. A portion of the EVF just for focusing could be overlaid onto the OVF so that the OVF could still be used as a focusing mechanism.

That is why I don't understand what the use of the HYBRID portion is if all it does is show horizon, exposure, and a few other things. They could be done below or above with a little squinting. Fuji have squandered what should be the most precious commodity in the X100 and X-Pro.

HYBRID with dull, obtrusive information is a poor substitute for one that could be used to take photos in the traditional way of shooting.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

shigzeo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

Anyone who uses non-X lenses knows this: there is no way to focus a lens using the X-Pro via the OVF. You can do hyper focal guesses, but never be 100% sure of focus because the 'HYBRID' OVF employs no focus aids.

Why is this?

Horizon, white/black levels, ISO, etc., great, but what about focusing?

Why is there a camera that looks like a rangefinder with a glass eye that doesn't allow focusing of a lens manually through that bit of glass? The information about the split image in the new 100s was fun until it seemed it only works in the EVF or the LCD.

They HYBRID portion of the OVF should bear out like this: overlay the split image onto the glass. Keep it in the centre, fine. But make it possible to look into real light, not bloody pixels, to focus.

Fuji's lenses are 100% SLR style lenses with coupled/automatic aperture, but the camera looks like a rangefinder. The problem is that the niceties of a rangefinder are completely absent unless you pretend your fuji lenses are rangefinder lenses and you use AF. If not, you are out of luck and have to resort to the EVF.

The look of the X-Pro is the only advance I can see for users of non-Fuji glass. Otherwise, X-E seems the obvious choice. It shouldn't be. Some of us want the metal body and would love to use the (okay so it's small and chintzy and looks like looking through a tunnel) OVF in some meaningful way other than a reason to keep a glass cleaning cloth handy.

Will this functionality ever come? If not, what is the bloody point of the OVF other than looks.

Click to expand...

shigzeo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

shigzeo said:

hexxthalion wrote:

I was thinking about this for a while, because you can show corrected AF frame in the OVF and was thinking how hard would it be to show digital split image in similar fashion. I think the problem could lie in the colour palette available on the digital overlay and could be limited to few basic colours. As far as I know it only changes brightness of the overlaid info (which seems to be gray) and then we have additional 2 colours used in the overlay - green for AF, red for no-AF. Hard to tell really, maybe it will be implemented in X-Pro1 replacement in 2014

Click to expand...

That is the most plausible explanation I've heard. I assumed that a portion of the EVF was overlaid onto the OVF. If what I assumed is correct, it would mean Fuji have held back functionality or are too lazy to implement it.

If what you say is correct, then Fuji may have set the X series out too early. That really should be a full colour palette that can be summoned for focusing.

Click to expand...

liquid stereo said:

liquid stereo wrote:

liquid stereo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

liquid stereo said:

MayaTlab0 wrote:

The point is to enjoy the benefits of a rangefinder-like viewfinder :

- brightest optical viewfinder available now (no lag, yet not as dim as DSLRs VF in the dark).

- ability to see beyond the framelines.

- no viewfinder blackout.

These are all points you can't have with other types of viewfinders, so it still has a number competitive advantages that make it relevant even today.

Most of these advantages become useful, IMHO, mostly for street photography or associated genres.

Click to expand...

I have three rangefinders. Each are coupled to the lens, or have a built-in lens. The X series has none of the benefits of manual focusing available in the OVF - which it could if it had an overlay option in the OVF alongside horizon, exposure, etc.

It's not that I'm unfamiliar with OVFs or rangefinder windows - everyone knows the benefits and disadvantages of those. It's that this is a HYBRID with functionality that could overlay part of the focus function of the EVF in manual mode in the OVF and it doesn't. It's been nearly two years that the X100 has been out and still, no hint of firmware to use what can be done.

It isn't coupling or triangulation, it's merely a window that previews focus for a specific area. It's been done since the early 2000's in EVF's of certain cameras. It can be done in the OVF. But it's not.

The thing is that other than that: image quality, handling, ergonomics, and the immediacy of having exposure and compensation plus threaded shutter release at your finger tips and having the settings known prior to turning on the camera - things every modern camera lacks - those things are what makes the Fuji special. But in order to make a perfect a camera with traditional, solid layout, you need to first make sure that all parts are in some sort of agreement. Currently, the OVF is too small and tunnel-vision like. It is less clear than the X100.

But even the X100's hybrid OVF lacks the basic abilities that all cameras it takes its looks from have. That is focusing via the lens and not the computer. Only the Contax G1 had computer focusing. Fuji tout the hybrid OVF but they are not using it to anywhere near its full and rightful ability.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

hexxthalion said:

hexxthalion wrote:

hexxthalion said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

hexxthalion said:

hexxthalion wrote:

I was thinking about this for a while, because you can show corrected AF frame in the OVF and was thinking how hard would it be to show digital split image in similar fashion. I think the problem could lie in the colour palette available on the digital overlay and could be limited to few basic colours. As far as I know it only changes brightness of the overlaid info (which seems to be gray) and then we have additional 2 colours used in the overlay - green for AF, red for no-AF. Hard to tell really, maybe it will be implemented in X-Pro1 replacement in 2014

Click to expand...

That is the most plausible explanation I've heard. I assumed that a portion of the EVF was overlaid onto the OVF. If what I assumed is correct, it would mean Fuji have held back functionality or are too lazy to implement it.

If what you say is correct, then Fuji may have set the X series out too early. That really should be a full colour palette that can be summoned for focusing.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

shigzeo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

shigzeo said:

MayaTlab0 wrote:

The point is to enjoy the benefits of a rangefinder-like viewfinder :

- brightest optical viewfinder available now (no lag, yet not as dim as DSLRs VF in the dark).

- ability to see beyond the framelines.

- no viewfinder blackout.

These are all points you can't have with other types of viewfinders, so it still has a number competitive advantages that make it relevant even today.

Most of these advantages become useful, IMHO, mostly for street photography or associated genres.

Click to expand...

I have three rangefinders. Each are coupled to the lens, or have a built-in lens. The X series has none of the benefits of manual focusing available in the OVF - which it could if it had an overlay option in the OVF alongside horizon, exposure, etc.

It's not that I'm unfamiliar with OVFs or rangefinder windows - everyone knows the benefits and disadvantages of those. It's that this is a HYBRID with functionality that could overlay part of the focus function of the EVF in manual mode in the OVF and it doesn't. It's been nearly two years that the X100 has been out and still, no hint of firmware to use what can be done.

It isn't coupling or triangulation, it's merely a window that previews focus for a specific area. It's been done since the early 2000's in EVF's of certain cameras. It can be done in the OVF. But it's not.

The thing is that other than that: image quality, handling, ergonomics, and the immediacy of having exposure and compensation plus threaded shutter release at your finger tips and having the settings known prior to turning on the camera - things every modern camera lacks - those things are what makes the Fuji special. But in order to make a perfect a camera with traditional, solid layout, you need to first make sure that all parts are in some sort of agreement. Currently, the OVF is too small and tunnel-vision like. It is less clear than the X100.

But even the X100's hybrid OVF lacks the basic abilities that all cameras it takes its looks from have. That is focusing via the lens and not the computer. Only the Contax G1 had computer focusing. Fuji tout the hybrid OVF but they are not using it to anywhere near its full and rightful ability.

Click to expand...

shigzeo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

An overlay of the EVF, not a split image, but just a zoomed in overlay, however, is possible. Even with the tiny viewfinder of the X Pro, I'd purchase it for that. THe EVF gives me headaches and I'm not going to purchase fuji lenses.

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hexxthalion said:

hexxthalion wrote:

hexxthalion said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

An overlay of the EVF, not a split image, but just a zoomed in overlay, however, is possible. Even with the tiny viewfinder of the X Pro, I'd purchase it for that. THe EVF gives me headaches and I'm not going to purchase fuji lenses.

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shigzeo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

shigzeo said:

liquid stereo wrote:

shigzeo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

shigzeo said:

MayaTlab0 wrote:

The point is to enjoy the benefits of a rangefinder-like viewfinder :

- brightest optical viewfinder available now (no lag, yet not as dim as DSLRs VF in the dark).

- ability to see beyond the framelines.

- no viewfinder blackout.

These are all points you can't have with other types of viewfinders, so it still has a number competitive advantages that make it relevant even today.

Most of these advantages become useful, IMHO, mostly for street photography or associated genres.

Click to expand...

I have three rangefinders. Each are coupled to the lens, or have a built-in lens. The X series has none of the benefits of manual focusing available in the OVF - which it could if it had an overlay option in the OVF alongside horizon, exposure, etc.

It's not that I'm unfamiliar with OVFs or rangefinder windows - everyone knows the benefits and disadvantages of those. It's that this is a HYBRID with functionality that could overlay part of the focus function of the EVF in manual mode in the OVF and it doesn't. It's been nearly two years that the X100 has been out and still, no hint of firmware to use what can be done.

It isn't coupling or triangulation, it's merely a window that previews focus for a specific area. It's been done since the early 2000's in EVF's of certain cameras. It can be done in the OVF. But it's not.

The thing is that other than that: image quality, handling, ergonomics, and the immediacy of having exposure and compensation plus threaded shutter release at your finger tips and having the settings known prior to turning on the camera - things every modern camera lacks - those things are what makes the Fuji special. But in order to make a perfect a camera with traditional, solid layout, you need to first make sure that all parts are in some sort of agreement. Currently, the OVF is too small and tunnel-vision like. It is less clear than the X100.

But even the X100's hybrid OVF lacks the basic abilities that all cameras it takes its looks from have. That is focusing via the lens and not the computer. Only the Contax G1 had computer focusing. Fuji tout the hybrid OVF but they are not using it to anywhere near its full and rightful ability.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

liquid stereo said:

liquid stereo wrote:

liquid stereo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

liquid stereo said:

liquid stereo wrote:

liquid stereo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

liquid stereo said:

MayaTlab0 wrote:

The point is to enjoy the benefits of a rangefinder-like viewfinder :

- brightest optical viewfinder available now (no lag, yet not as dim as DSLRs VF in the dark).

- ability to see beyond the framelines.

- no viewfinder blackout.

These are all points you can't have with other types of viewfinders, so it still has a number competitive advantages that make it relevant even today.

Most of these advantages become useful, IMHO, mostly for street photography or associated genres.

Click to expand...

I have three rangefinders. Each are coupled to the lens, or have a built-in lens. The X series has none of the benefits of manual focusing available in the OVF - which it could if it had an overlay option in the OVF alongside horizon, exposure, etc.

It's not that I'm unfamiliar with OVFs or rangefinder windows - everyone knows the benefits and disadvantages of those. It's that this is a HYBRID with functionality that could overlay part of the focus function of the EVF in manual mode in the OVF and it doesn't. It's been nearly two years that the X100 has been out and still, no hint of firmware to use what can be done.

It isn't coupling or triangulation, it's merely a window that previews focus for a specific area. It's been done since the early 2000's in EVF's of certain cameras. It can be done in the OVF. But it's not.

The thing is that other than that: image quality, handling, ergonomics, and the immediacy of having exposure and compensation plus threaded shutter release at your finger tips and having the settings known prior to turning on the camera - things every modern camera lacks - those things are what makes the Fuji special. But in order to make a perfect a camera with traditional, solid layout, you need to first make sure that all parts are in some sort of agreement. Currently, the OVF is too small and tunnel-vision like. It is less clear than the X100.

But even the X100's hybrid OVF lacks the basic abilities that all cameras it takes its looks from have. That is focusing via the lens and not the computer. Only the Contax G1 had computer focusing. Fuji tout the hybrid OVF but they are not using it to anywhere near its full and rightful ability.

Click to expand...

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shigzeo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

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shigzeo said:

I will use my other lenses, which, faults as they may be full of, are prescious lenses to me that can be used on my rangefinders and on other digital cameras or adopted for micro use on SLRs. If I were coming straight into a new digital system, I'd happily go with the FUji, but I'd still wonder why I can't do have the things with my lenses and metering system that I can do with a meterless Canon P.

Sharpness isn't everything to me.

I've never invested in electronics that have no mechanical anchor. I can't imagine ever doing it, either. As nice as they are, Fuji's lenses are cheap for their optical performance because of a number of hardware shortcuts. Plus, they are SLR lenses, and because they are all electronic, they are dead completely without a body. THat sort of commoditising I really really dislike. I live in Japan where every year, things are losing functionality because they are going automatic. At home, I can't flush the toilet if the power goes out or the remote control frays.

Japan is full of stupid ideas because no questions how things are being made. Today, it's everything even toilets all computers or nothing and it won't last. My Canon and Nikon lenses from the 1960's and 50's have a number of issues: Nikon's front element rotates with focus, Canon, aperture blades are delicate. But both work on any system and are made to last.

You cannot free lens with the Fuji glass, cannot use extensions unless they are electronic, can't trip apertures open or closed via wire. As good as they are, they are simply nothing without batteries.

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shigzeo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:As for the marketplace, there isn't really any choice as far as I'm concerned: shutter releases are non-standard, exposure is done on non-labeled dials, ditto exposure correction, remote control releases, etc. Fuji did so much right to the camera, I just feel that they skimped on the one feature they trumpet most: HYBRID OVF.

Had they marketed it as an OVF and had not said it does cool things, there'd be no reason to hope. But there there is, or has been. I had hoped that the HYBRID part of the OVF would really be used, but it isn't. That's it.

The lenses, bit I brought up as they came up in the thread. I really think they are great. I am amazed, actually at them. But they don't work for my photography and that is that.

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shigzeo said:

shigzeo ? wrote:

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shigzeo said:

I've been re-reading my posts and I agree - my grammar is atrocious. Oh well. The reason I am vocal is that I would really like the X-Pro. It encompasses so much of what I like in a camera, but has some very serious faults. The X-E1 is, as said, probably the easiest thing to cope with because it lacks the thing that I really want to use: OVF. As you know from my posts, I think the OVF is worthless for my photography. That opinion is obviously a minority report.

As for the marketplace, there isn't really any choice as far as I'm concerned: shutter releases are non-standard, exposure is done on non-labeled dials, ditto exposure correction, remote control releases, etc. Fuji did so much right to the camera, I just feel that they skimped on the one feature they trumpet most: HYBRID OVF.

Had they marketed it as an OVF and had not said it does cool things, there'd be no reason to hope. But there there is, or has been. I had hoped that the HYBRID part of the OVF would really be used, but it isn't. That's it.

The lenses, bit I brought up as they came up in the thread. I really think they are great. I am amazed, actually at them. But they don't work for my photography and that is that.

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