F750EXR vs F200EXR at wide angle

DS21 wrote:

Fuji changed the metering over time to expose more for the shadows. The F200 (same as F100 before) has a conservative metering, meaning it is very hard to overexpose.
Interesting, and probably true.
This test just proves to me (viewed full size) that F200 is a classic never to be repeated again by Fuji.
The X10 did well on this scene. The URL is below if you want to look at the 4000x3000 image. Unfortunately the position is a bit different so you cannot see the tower and palm trees. But I believe the X10 might be superior to the F200, except for orbs etc.


 
photofan1986 wrote:

I'm not really surprised by this. I'd really like to see a comparison between the F200 and the XF-1 to see how the latter compares to the old warrior.
So would I, although I do not plan to buy an XF1, so don't expect it from me.

The F750 handles a lot better than the F200EXR in all respects. I especially like the pop-up flash, and I could not have taken this photo without its 92mm reach (500mm crop equivalent).





Referenced from cacreeks.com/rogue.htm

Referenced from cacreeks.com/rogue.htm
 
The XF1,X10 and XS1 all have the same sensor.

Want to compare them to the "old" fuji's like F100FD, S100fs, F200EXR?

Use IR comparometer. The XF1 looks better than the F200exr at 800iso.

But the other two "old" fuji"s look better (at 800iso) than the XF1. And thus also better than the X10 and XS1.

So what is one buying? Expensive cams with debatable IQ while better ones can be had secondhand at bargainprices

Isn't that a joke?
 
CAcreeks wrote:
DS21 wrote:

Fuji changed the metering over time to expose more for the shadows. The F200 (same as F100 before) has a conservative metering, meaning it is very hard to overexpose.
Interesting, and probably true.
This test just proves to me (viewed full size) that F200 is a classic never to be repeated again by Fuji.
The X10 did well on this scene. The URL is below if you want to look at the 4000x3000 image. Unfortunately the position is a bit different so you cannot see the tower and palm trees. But I believe the X10 might be superior to the F200, except for orbs etc.

The X10 is not really in the same class as F200, it is much bigger and has less zoom range. I also don't think the X10 looks any better here, too many blown areas ("new" Fuji metering style). For the difference in time between the releases, price and upscale packaging of X10, I would expect more. In the context of 2009 and how well it stacks up even today, I consider F200 a true classic of Fuji F line.
 
Hi CAcreeks,

Very interesting and thanks for the update.

The one area looks like it might have been taken @ Stanford U?

Best wishes and Happy New Year Neighbor,

Gary N W SFO
 
Gary N W wrote:

Hi CAcreeks,

Very interesting and thanks for the update.

The one area looks like it might have been taken @ Stanford U?
Yes, exactly.

Stanford security cops chased out Jeff for taking pictures on private property, so he had to find a new arch-way. However the replacement arch wasn't as good as this one with palm trees and distant building.

KimL does not like this test, but for me it is the best challenge for what I need in a camera. In whitewater canyon photography, there is often an area of bright sun with tree branches against blue sky. Canada doesn't have such strong lighting, I guess.

Most DSLR models do pretty well here, but Fuji EXR is not far behind, ahead of Olympus but not Panasonic m4/3. Here for example is the GF2, last GF before the replacment arch.


 
CAcreeks wrote:

The F200EXR seems sharper at wide angle than the F750, which I guess would be expected given its larger sensor and less-ambitious lens. (Note: the F750 is an F770 without RAW and GPS).
The F200 lens is sharper on the right, because the F750 lens is badly defocused on the right.

They both show matching sharpness on the left once the F750 is tweaked a little.

This shot would also show how the F200 with a CCD sensor is more detailed than the F750 with its CMOS sensor, providing you shot the detail along the left side of the lens.
With each camera I bracketed four shots. These two are the ones that matched brightness (EV) most closely. As you can see the newer camera produces warmer colors and more shadow detail, but the blue sky is washed out near the horizon, and objects look fuzzy near infinity.
There is only more shadow detail because that one is slightly over-exposed. It's a shame you didn't shoot DR400 in M size to get a better result (no clipped highlights).

I see no advantage in using L on the F750/770, and all the other variations on that 16MP sensor.

When comparing it is best to actually match overall exposure at some point in PP to be fair.



--

Cheers ;-)

Trevor G

Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com
 
Trevor G wrote:

There is only more shadow detail because that one is slightly over-exposed. It's a shame you didn't shoot DR400 in M size to get a better result (no clipped highlights).
Both shots were M size DR 400% as you can tell from the pixel dimensions or by looking at the EXIF. Hard to say exactly what is over-exposed for this image. Many cameras including Olympus M4/3 show total highlight clipping with no blue at all in the sky.
 
By focusing at the end of the hallway and recomposing, I got the F750 image closer to quality of the F200EXR image, and selected two similar exposures, wide open at 1/300 and 1/320. The F200EXR image still looks crisper.




F200EXR medium size DR 400






F750 medium size DR 400
 
CAcreeks wrote:
Trevor G wrote:

There is only more shadow detail because that one is slightly over-exposed. It's a shame you didn't shoot DR400 in M size to get a better result (no clipped highlights).
Both shots were M size DR 400% as you can tell from the pixel dimensions or by looking at the EXIF. Hard to say exactly what is over-exposed for this image. Many cameras including Olympus M4/3 show total highlight clipping with no blue at all in the sky.
My apologies for rushing to judgment without looking closely. No one else shoots DR400!

If you want to avoid highlight clipping then you will often find that -2/3EV is the way to go.

Unfortunately, without RAW you don't get much advantage from DR200 or DR400; maybe around 1EV to 1.5EV if you are lucky, but the upper 1/3 to 1/2 EV will be compressed at the very least, unless you give -2/3EV comp when shooting.

Thanks for posting.
 
CAcreeks wrote:

By focusing at the end of the hallway and recomposing, I got the F750 image closer to quality of the F200EXR image, and selected two similar exposures, wide open at 1/300 and 1/320. The F200EXR image still looks crisper.
The F200 will always be crisper because the lens on the F750 is misaligned and soft, very soft on the RHS especially.
 
Trevor G wrote:
CAcreeks wrote:
Trevor G wrote:

There is only more shadow detail because that one is slightly over-exposed. It's a shame you didn't shoot DR400 in M size to get a better result (no clipped highlights).
Both shots were M size DR 400% as you can tell from the pixel dimensions or by looking at the EXIF. Hard to say exactly what is over-exposed for this image. Many cameras including Olympus M4/3 show total highlight clipping with no blue at all in the sky.
My apologies for rushing to judgment without looking closely. No one else shoots DR400!
What are you talking about? I fix the DR at 400% and I believe Kim does too.

Paul.
 
PAUL TILL wrote:
Trevor G wrote:
CAcreeks wrote:
Trevor G wrote:

There is only more shadow detail because that one is slightly over-exposed. It's a shame you didn't shoot DR400 in M size to get a better result (no clipped highlights).
Both shots were M size DR 400% as you can tell from the pixel dimensions or by looking at the EXIF. Hard to say exactly what is over-exposed for this image. Many cameras including Olympus M4/3 show total highlight clipping with no blue at all in the sky.
My apologies for rushing to judgment without looking closely. No one else shoots DR400!
What are you talking about? I fix the DR at 400% and I believe Kim does too.
Yes, those who do not shoot DR400 are in the minority, and their results always make it pretty obvious with lots of blown highlights ...

Just sayin' ...
 
CAcreeks wrote:
Gary N W wrote:

Hi CAcreeks,

Very interesting and thanks for the update.

The one area looks like it might have been taken @ Stanford U?
Posting was broken all day yesterday, so I could not reply until this morning.
KimL does not like this test, but for me it is the best challenge for what I need in a camera.
The test, were it run properly, would be very useful. So it is not the test I do not like, but the inconsistency of the lighting and the exposures that I do not like. It renders results shot at different times meaningless when compared, which is what this thread tries to do.
In whitewater canyon photography, there is often an area of bright sun with tree branches against blue sky. Canada doesn't have such strong lighting, I guess.
An interesting comment. So you feel that snow in bright midday sunlight against a background of dark woods is somehow less of a challenge than a canyon with white water or trees against blue sky? By the way, we have trees and blue skies too. :-)
 
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Trevor G wrote:
CAcreeks wrote:

By focusing at the end of the hallway and recomposing, I got the F750 image closer to quality of the F200EXR image, and selected two similar exposures, wide open at 1/300 and 1/320. The F200EXR image still looks crisper.
The F200 will always be crisper because the lens on the F750 is misaligned and soft, very soft on the RHS especially.
Larger sensor and no taking advantage of RAW also makes a difference.

But what is the real difference here?

If we downsize the F7xx to match the F200 and then apply some high radius sharpen to the F7xx, is there enough difference to matter? I doubt it.

This is two 100% crops showing the differences and it's not enough to really get twisted over ...

(oops ... ignore the f770 and substitute f750 ... I own the 770 so always assume that one)

3c03c774881a4b9aab9c95ddc383ed02.jpg

And that's in shadow ...

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
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Kim, I did exactly that 5 mins ago myself ! Downsampled and slightly sharpened with 5pix radius, it looks very close.

However, no doubt upper right corner looks better in F200exr: in the F750 shot there's slight but obvious lense-induced softness (even double registration of the rooftop lines).

But the zoomrange is just so much bigger, no wonder there's some compromise involved. I'm sure many people appreciate the zoomrange. In case anybody wants less zoom and better lens, then there's X-F1 nowadays.
 
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Rachotilko wrote:

Kim, I did exactly that 5 mins ago myself ! Downsampled and slightly sharpened with 5pix radius, it looks very close.

However, no doubt upper right corner looks better in F200exr: in the F750 shot there's slight but obvious lense-induced softness (even double registration of the rooftop lines).

But the zoomrange is just so much bigger, no wonder there's some compromise involved. I'm sure many people appreciate the zoomrange. In case anybody wants less zoom and better lens, then there's X-F1 nowadays.
Yes, the perennial compromise is between zoom range and overall lens quality, especially at wide angle.

My F770 suffers from the usual CA in the deep corners ... yet I know that it will not affect my images that much and I have far better lenses for wide shooting anyway (my X Vario PZ 14-42 is pretty incredible and so is my 14-140 G Vario.)

So I am happy that I again have a pretty decent concert camera ... but were I shooting outdoors a lot and wanted the ultimate image quality (if that even makes sense when applied to small sensors like 2/3" and smaller) then the XF1 might be more sensible. Still, I don't really like the 2/3" sensor, so I might jump to the P7700 from Nikon in that case.
 
Kim Letkeman wrote:
. . .
My apologies for rushing to judgment without looking closely. No one else shoots DR400!
What are you talking about? I fix the DR at 400% and I believe Kim does too.
Yes, those who do not shoot DR400 are in the minority, and their results always make it pretty obvious with lots of blown highlights ...
It's one thing to use DR 400% most of the time and another to glue the settings to DR 400%. There are days and times of the day when the scene's DR is extremely narrow, and for those photo opportunities, using DR 200% and higher will only reduce the image quality. wymjym's recent "XS1 -- into the mist" photos are good examples of photos that would benefit from using DR100%. Unfortunately, the DR settings were Photoshopped out of the EXIF data. They're still good photos even if DR400% was used, but even if so, DR100% would have been optimal.
 
Billx08 wrote:

It's one thing to use DR 400% most of the time and another to glue the settings to DR 400%. There are days and times of the day when the scene's DR is extremely narrow, and for those photo opportunities, using DR 200% and higher will only reduce the image quality. wymjym's recent "XS1 -- into the mist" photos are good examples of photos that would benefit from using DR100%. Unfortunately, the DR settings were Photoshopped out of the EXIF data. They're still good photos even if DR400% was used, but even if so, DR100% would have been optimal.
I agree ... when you have the time and the lighting is very soft, very specific settings get better image quality. But of course, I also advocate using more camera too when you have the time :-)
 
The wide angle is good enough to satisfy me, although I wish Fuji in-camera correction worked as well near widest angle as it does at widest angle. Dynamic range is acceptable - not quite as good as the F200EXR, but better than Olympus M4/3.

Bottom line: big improvement over the F550, much easier to shoot and better designed than the F200EXR. The only camera I could replace it with the GF5 with 14-42 PZ, but then I would always have to shot RAW because Panasonic JPEG is unacceptable.
Kim Letkeman wrote:

Yes, the perennial compromise is between zoom range and overall lens quality, especially at wide angle.

My F770 suffers from the usual CA in the deep corners ... yet I know that it will not affect my images that much and I have far better lenses for wide shooting anyway (my X Vario PZ 14-42 is pretty incredible and so is my 14-140 G Vario.)

So I am happy that I again have a pretty decent concert camera ... but were I shooting outdoors a lot and wanted the ultimate image quality (if that even makes sense when applied to small sensors like 2/3" and smaller) then the XF1 might be more sensible. Still, I don't really like the 2/3" sensor, so I might jump to the P7700 from Nikon in that case.
 
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