Photosig

Well it seems as though The Photosig have lost the plot. and got wrapped up in their own sence of self importance. I used to really enjoy using the site, getting some sort of feedback on my creative efforts

They have just converted to Version 2 which in some ways is an improvement, speed is much better (after all the teething problems they had) and some things that are going out of its way to kill the site like a draconian critique analysing algorithm. reading through the forums on the ite indicate that there are a large number of users who are not happy about the new rules. Rather than take the critism or site critique on board and discuss the pros, cons and alternatives like adults, they are resorting to censoring forum items that they dont like and suspending accounts of the people who might like to start discussions of this type.

I posted a forum article that did draw comparisons of what was happening with a **** like attitude. All forms of dissenting opion is censored and deleted. This post was duely deleted with no explanation on the part of the admins. I posted a second one that further pointed out that their customers and users will stop using the site if the do not get enjoyment or satisfaction from the service, given that they are trying to sell premium memberships it gets right down to their business model and will ultimately determine whether they end up with a useful return on their investment in compoter hardware and bandwidth or they end up losing their shirt. I also again pointed out that the stifling of adult discussion was a **** like attitude and benefited no one. the note was not written in anger, but rationally left the door open to further discussion.

This morning I find that the account that I had on the site has been suspended, I guess that the forum note that I posted as a follow up has been deleted also. They have re-inforced my view that they have **** like attitudes to the site. I have not received and notification or contact from the site admins.

I for one will never look at another Photosig affiliated site and any potential revinue that they may have got from me will now go else where. I get the distinct impression that there are significant numbers who share the same attitude.

--
DCS-F707, Nikon CP 950, http://www.pbase.com/bmorris65

Not to support Photosig or anything, Brad, but generally I have found that comparing someone to the Nazis does not, in fact, rationally leave the door open to further discussion.

Nazis committed horrific atrocities on such a grand scale that nobody should trivialize the scope of that evil by using the term to refer to something as ultimately trivial (compared to mass murder and xenocide) as how some private business treats what its customers say on its own web site.

Brad Morris said:

their shirt. I also again pointed out that the stifling of adult
discussion was a **** like attitude and benefited no one. the note
was not written in anger, but rationally left the door open to
further discussion.

Click to expand...

--
Patrick Martin
http://www.patrickmartin.com

Patrick,

You are right, but in the internet web site scheme of things their behavior is comparible. The point was that all of the draconian regulations was scaring thier user base away. I was only using the term **** as a metaphore for the censorship and intolerance of attitudes contray to their own.

Phil does not censor critisim of this site. He may dismiss some of it as his right but some of it is definitely taken under advisement. He does however, when he sees something responds in a logical thoughful manner. he also runs a site that provides a service that us, the userbase of the site want to look at. If he didn't his users will stop coming and he will be out of business.

Patrick Martin said:

Nazis committed horrific atrocities on such a grand scale that
nobody should trivialize the scope of that evil by using the term
to refer to something as ultimately trivial (compared to mass
murder and xenocide) as how some private business treats what its
customers say on its own web site.

Brad Morris said:

their shirt. I also again pointed out that the stifling of adult
discussion was a **** like attitude and benefited no one. the note
was not written in anger, but rationally left the door open to
further discussion.

Click to expand...

--
Patrick Martin
http://www.patrickmartin.com

Click to expand...

--
DCS-F707, Nikon CP 950, http://www.pbase.com/bmorris65

There are few things comparable with the Nazis behavior. Certainly, the "draconian" policies and censorship on a web site is not. The word "draconian" was a good touch. To use references to Nazis in almost any comparison is to invite a reaction. Too many people are still around that get a strong adverse reaction to anything to do with the Nazis. Leon

Brad Morris said:

You are right, but in the internet web site scheme of things their
behavior is comparible. The point was that all of the draconian
regulations was scaring thier user base away. I was only using the
term **** as a metaphore for the censorship and intolerance of
attitudes contray to their own.

Phil does not censor critisim of this site. He may dismiss some of
it as his right but some of it is definitely taken under
advisement. He does however, when he sees something responds in a
logical thoughful manner. he also runs a site that provides a
service that us, the userbase of the site want to look at. If he
didn't his users will stop coming and he will be out of business.

Patrick Martin said:

Nazis committed horrific atrocities on such a grand scale that
nobody should trivialize the scope of that evil by using the term
to refer to something as ultimately trivial (compared to mass
murder and xenocide) as how some private business treats what its
customers say on its own web site.

Brad Morris said:

their shirt. I also again pointed out that the stifling of adult
discussion was a **** like attitude and benefited no one. the note
was not written in anger, but rationally left the door open to
further discussion.

Click to expand...

--
Patrick Martin
http://www.patrickmartin.com

Click to expand...

--
DCS-F707, Nikon CP 950, http://www.pbase.com/bmorris65

Click to expand...

Photosig still has plenty of excellent photos coming through each day. However, I have to agree that their new fuzzy critique system with critiques that "conform" or do not "conform" is a step in the wrong direction. They have no idea how unhelpful this is, for there are people like myself who select and edit pictures in the course of their regular work who just don't go into long rambling explanations. eg. I may say: "It's good, but crop 10% off the bottom and move the gamma curve down a bit" - and this of course would not "conform" unless fluffed out into rambling prose.

Anyway, if someone makes accusations of "Nazis" or "draconian" or "censorship" etc, then they only give an excuse to administrators and other bean-counters to delete their post. On balanced and happy sites administrators and moderators exist to serve the members rather than carry out office politics or censorship. So share your pictures and ideas in places where your input is appreciated and not seen as a problem.
John.

Putting the specifics of the merits of Photosig v2 to one side, I have to say that your use of the term '****' or even '**** like' wasn't clever.

The term '****' is such a loaded term that anyone on the receiving end is going to react negatively and be less inclined to understand the merits of whatever points you are trying to make.

Also what do you mean by '**** like'? The term is so loaded and people read so much into it that it's such a blunt instrument as to be meaningless.

I dare say that I and many others would agree with some or even many of your opinions on Photosig V2. However, if you want to persuade the people that run the site to take what you say on board then you have to make them 'want' to listen to you. Describing people's behaviour as '**** like' won't do it.

Simon C
http://www.eyematter.com

You say I'm right, but you still think comparing the operation of a private web site to government-sponsored wholesale genocide is "comparible"? (btw, the spelling is "comparable") Did anybody haul you and your family off, separate you from them, confiscate your property, then gas you to death?

Sadly, it is a metaphor used often "in the internet web scheme of things." I understood the point you were trying to make. My point is that you, and all the others who rail about the "Nazism" of some web site administrator are making a terrible mistake and cheapening one of the biggest horror stories of human history. Use of metaphors like yours are one of the top things that makes participating in internet discussions unpleasant for most calm, sane, rational people.

If you must use an over-the-top metaphor, try screaming about the "McCarthyism" of the site. May not be as well known to international readers, but it has the benefit of being a lot more accurate, frankly.

--
Patrick Martin
http://www.patrickmartin.com

in hindsight you are all correct. I shouldn't have worded it that way - it was using a sledge hammer to crack a walnut. (BTW my keyboard cant spell very well ;-))

Being "nice" wasnt working. the sentement was obviously being ignored or blatantly dismissed as being invalid. A response from them saying "we hear you but dont think this wording is appropriate" would have diffused the situation and they would have received an apology from myself. i I would not be posting negative comments about Photosig here

Unfortunately the use of teh word "****" has clouded the issue of the site policy and its effect on the users of that site. It was done with the intention of maybe waking up the admins so they would atleast take some of the critisims on board. Evidently it hasnt had that effect.

Time will tell if Photosig will survive. In its current incarnation i suspect that it will linger for a while and slowly die as users migrate away to equivalent places that provide the enjoyment that the users are looking for when going to a site like Photosig or usefilm or even DPReview.

Simon Courcha said:

Putting the specifics of the merits of Photosig v2 to one side, I
have to say that your use of the term '****' or even '**** like'
wasn't clever.

The term '****' is such a loaded term that anyone on the receiving
end is going to react negatively and be less inclined to understand
the merits of whatever points you are trying to make.

Also what do you mean by '**** like'? The term is so loaded and
people read so much into it that it's such a blunt instrument as to
be meaningless.

I dare say that I and many others would agree with some or even
many of your opinions on Photosig V2. However, if you want to
persuade the people that run the site to take what you say on board
then you have to make them 'want' to listen to you. Describing
people's behaviour as '**** like' won't do it.

Simon C
http://www.eyematter.com

Click to expand...

--
DCS-F707, Nikon CP 950, http://www.pbase.com/bmorris65

I think the term "****" has been used in a watered-down sens here, as is Seinfeld's "food-****". Since this highly memorable sitcom episode, a veriety of "nazis" has been blooming in America: "rule-****", "floor-****"... In this context, the metaphore has nothing to do with concentration camps, gas chambers, and carpet bombings. It just denotes a stiff attitude on enforcing rules and ruling other people lives. It's pop culture, not history, and understanding it otherwise would be insulting the victims of the real Nazis... The watering-down of the expression may be unfortunate, but nobody with a sens of proportion would be fooled by it: the perception of the 30's german Nazis' crimes hasn't been watered down by Seinfeld's line and following popular expression.

To go back to sig, I agree that the administrators of the site display a besieged attitude in front of criticism. I understand that you cannot reconsider your changes everytime an unhappy critics is formulated, but they display nothing but contempt towards constructive criticism, often backed by carefully recorded data and statistics.

Their attitude is closer to bigotry: they are right and people who think otherwise are wrong and should start looking for other websites instead of complaining. A proof of thier stubborn attitude is the disappearinace of the stat page: there are no proof of loss of members, no proof of rarity of critics posted, no proof of dramatic change in the critique/photo ratio. They also removed the favorites, so you cannot even go check if the people who's work you liked are still around.

Making changes is good. In the case of sig, most changes have been beneficial, but the system is far from perfect.

Claiming perfection by refusing to listen to critiques and refusing to put the system to the test by comparing statistics is just plain dishonest.
We will see if the site improves in the next few weeks.

Henri

Well said Henri,

I wish that I had put it that way in the first place.

Unfortunately, what was a good site in my opinion has just shot itself in the foot and will not be receiving any further business from me.

I suspect that there will be others with the same attiitude.

Cheers

Brad

Henri Saucy said:

I think the term "****" has been used in a watered-down sens here,
as is Seinfeld's "food-****". Since this highly memorable sitcom
episode, a veriety of "nazis" has been blooming in America:
"rule-****", "floor-****"... In this context, the metaphore has
nothing to do with concentration camps, gas chambers, and carpet
bombings. It just denotes a stiff attitude on enforcing rules and
ruling other people lives. It's pop culture, not history, and
understanding it otherwise would be insulting the victims of the
real Nazis... The watering-down of the expression may be
unfortunate, but nobody with a sens of proportion would be fooled
by it: the perception of the 30's german Nazis' crimes hasn't been
watered down by Seinfeld's line and following popular expression.

To go back to sig, I agree that the administrators of the site
display a besieged attitude in front of criticism. I understand
that you cannot reconsider your changes everytime an unhappy
critics is formulated, but they display nothing but contempt
towards constructive criticism, often backed by carefully recorded
data and statistics.
Their attitude is closer to bigotry: they are right and people who
think otherwise are wrong and should start looking for other
websites instead of complaining. A proof of thier stubborn attitude
is the disappearinace of the stat page: there are no proof of loss
of members, no proof of rarity of critics posted, no proof of
dramatic change in the critique/photo ratio. They also removed the
favorites, so you cannot even go check if the people who's work you
liked are still around.
Making changes is good. In the case of sig, most changes have been
beneficial, but the system is far from perfect.
Claiming perfection by refusing to listen to critiques and refusing
to put the system to the test by comparing statistics is just plain
dishonest.
We will see if the site improves in the next few weeks.

Henri

Click to expand...

--
DCS-F707, Nikon CP 950, http://www.pbase.com/bmorris65