HS30 EXR - RAW, Settings and Some Pix ...

Lloydy · Nov 30, 2012

... Yesterday I mentioned that I thought the HS30 EXR sensor was more noisy than I thought it should be.

Well, I still think that is true. However, I also installed the RFC EX program yesterday, and today shot quite a few Raw+Jpeg images and ran them through.

Seriously, if you have the HS30 EXR, do yourself a favour and process the images (especially Raw images) with the RFC EX program. It is even better than the last version I used some 18 months back.

Even though I am a PS/ACR user, it just doesn't do as good a job with the EXR RAF files as the RFC EX. This is consistent with what I found with the HS10 files. A comparison post here :

http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/2010/12/fujifilm-hs-10-raw-converters-compared.html

Quick overview/tutorial of the RFC EX :

http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/2011/03/pp-tips-20-using-fujifilm-rfc-ex.html

Incidentally, if you do use ACR, or Lightroom, there is still the same 'colour bleed' problem I mentioned in this article :

http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/2011/05/hs20-exr-raw-file-colour-bleed.html

Settings - Below is how I have initially set up the camera. I'm finding this is quite good for how I like to shoot.

Here's what I am using. If I don't mention something, then it is still at its default setting :

P Mode (You could also use A or S)
ISO 1600 (Auto) Gets a little noisy at 1600 though.
Image Size - Large (4:3)
Image Quality - Fine
Dynamic Range - 200%
Film Simulation - Soft (Astia)
Sharpness - Hard
Noise Reduction - Low
Face Detection - Off
Electronic Level - On (Love this !!)
AF Mode - Tracking (This is also brilliant - You don't need to move the focus box, simply find your subject, half-press and whether you move, or the subject moves, it will keep focus on the subject)af tracking
EV Compenation - Set to -0.67
Raw + Jpeg

A few pix in following post.

Lloydy · Nov 30, 2012

... A few pix from this morning. All shot RAW and most processed with the RFC EX. One, or two, with ACR/PS.

Full Wide

Full Zoom

--
Dave

jcmarfilph · Nov 30, 2012

Still the classic Dave style... Great and improved photos compared to your HS10.

.

.

.

.

I've made a similar thread a while back and here are my settings...

I normally shoot wildlife so here I am using C-Mode with these settings:

Static/Semi Static critters

C-Mode set to Aperture-Priority (Go to Aperture Priority mode then save to C-Settings)

ISO = Auto 400 (shoot first on this then if the critter stays shoot on lower-ISO)
DR = Auto
EV = -0.33

Aperture = F/2.8 (it will become f/5.6 on the long end automatically and vice-versa)
Image Size = L 4:3
Image Quality = Fine
Film Simulation = Velvia/Vivid
Color=Mid
Sharpness=Standard
Tone=Standard
File format = RAW+JPEG
Noise Reduction = Low
Intelligent Sharpness = Off
Face Detection = Off
Face Recognition = Off

Image Stabilization Mode = Continuous IS
AF Illuminator = On
EVF/LCD Mode = 50 fps
Quick Start Mode = On

Continuous Shot Mode at 5 frames/s

Photometry(Metering) = Spot
White Balance = Auto
AF-Mode = Center
Focusing = AF-Single

LCD on Best Framing (RO3 guide)

For Bird-in-flight or other flying critter

Shutter-Priority Mode

Shutter speed = 1/1000s

For Macro

Aperture or Program Mode

Flash ON for insects and other critters under shade

To achieve Maximum magnification/Shallow DOF set the focal length to 150-160mm (EFL) and lens at 3-5 inches away

For Low-light

EXR-SN or PAS mode

ISO=Auto ISO1600
Image Size = M 4:3
DR = DR100
Film Simulation = Standard
Noise Reduction=Low
Sharpness=Standard

For General purpose type of shooting like events

Program Mode

ISO=Auto ISO400
Image Size = M 4:3
DR = DR400
Film Simulation = Standard
Noise Reduction=Low
Sharpness=Standard

Notes:

If you want extra resolution shoot in L-Size and set DR to Auto, File-type to RAW and PP it. That is the only way you will see considerable difference in resolution between L-Size and M-Size.

I am using Silkypix to PP my RAW files but sometimes especially on macro mode, JPEG is more than enough.

HTH

-=[ Joms ]=-

Lloydy · Nov 30, 2012

... Excellent comprehensive set of settings. I'll try some of those also. Thanks.

Wellington100 · Nov 30, 2012

Lloydy said:
Lloydy wrote:

... Yesterday I mentioned that I thought the HS30 EXR sensor was more noisy than I thought it should be.

Well, I still think that is true. However, I also installed the RFC EX program yesterday, and today shot quite a few Raw+Jpeg images and ran them through.

Seriously, if you have the HS30 EXR, do yourself a favour and process the images (especially Raw images) with the RFC EX program. It is even better than the last version I used some 18 months back.

Even though I am a PS/ACR user, it just doesn't do as good a job with the EXR RAF files as the RFC EX. This is consistent with what I found with the HS10 files. A comparison post here :

http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/2010/12/fujifilm-hs-10-raw-converters-compared.html

Quick overview/tutorial of the RFC EX :

http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/2011/03/pp-tips-20-using-fujifilm-rfc-ex.html

Incidentally, if you do use ACR, or Lightroom, there is still the same 'colour bleed' problem I mentioned in this article :

http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/2011/05/hs20-exr-raw-file-colour-bleed.html

Settings - Below is how I have initially set up the camera. I'm finding this is quite good for how I like to shoot.

Here's what I am using. If I don't mention something, then it is still at its default setting :

P Mode (You could also use A or S)
ISO 1600 (Auto) Gets a little noisy at 1600 though.
Image Size - Large (4:3)
Image Quality - Fine
Dynamic Range - 200%
Film Simulation - Soft (Astia)
Sharpness - Hard
Noise Reduction - Low
Face Detection - Off
Electronic Level - On (Love this !!)
AF Mode - Tracking (This is also brilliant - You don't need to move the focus box, simply find your subject, half-press and whether you move, or the subject moves, it will keep focus on the subject)af tracking
EV Compenation - Set to -0.67
Raw + Jpeg

A few pix in following post.

Lloydy · Nov 30, 2012

...Thanks for the comments and, yes, I will try M size and a little less EV. Just got to find some time

Gary N W · Nov 30, 2012

Some very nice and well composed images in this series. Combined with a lot of great info it should really help the H30 EXR users a lot.

Thanks for sharing.

Kind regards, Gary N W SFO

Michael Melb AU · Nov 30, 2012

I found HS30 to be excessively noisy in low ISO too. However, it lasted till I compared images taken with HS30 to other 16Mp small sensor cameras' images. They exhibit similar amount and character of noise in underexposed shadows. That is, small sensor cameras with 16Mp sensors do not like the image to be underexposed - it will be noisy with no regard to ISO chosen. Sure, noise gets worse when ISO increases - but with HS30 considerably less steep than with "conventional" Canon or Nikon - thanks to EXR.

My current approach is to be careful with -EV. Camera is very efficient at dealing with whites blowout, and many "blown" images (even JPGs) can be saved with a simple adjustment in image manager. As for RAWs - you are absolutely correct, RAW converter supplied with the camera does the best. Second best for me is Corel Paintshop PRO - that's when I need layers capability of Photoshop. All others I tried - Lightroom 3 and ACDSee5 included - are pretty hopeless with HS30 RAF.

jcmarfilph · Nov 30, 2012

Lloydy said:
Lloydy wrote:

... Excellent comprehensive set of settings. I'll try some of those also. Thanks.

Lloydy · Nov 30, 2012

...Best to use whatever works for you. For the sort of stuff I shoot AF Tracking is best.

Lloydy · Nov 30, 2012

... Thanks for your comments. Still wet, and dark, here but will get out and shoot some more stuff when we get some better weather.

Lloydy · Nov 30, 2012

Michael Melb AU said:
Michael Melb AU wrote:

I found HS30 to be excessively noisy in low ISO too. However, it lasted till I compared images taken with HS30 to other 16Mp small sensor cameras' images. They exhibit similar amount and character of noise in underexposed shadows. That is, small sensor cameras with 16Mp sensors do not like the image to be underexposed - it will be noisy with no regard to ISO chosen. Sure, noise gets worse when ISO increases - but with HS30 considerably less steep than with "conventional" Canon or Nikon - thanks to EXR.

... Good points. When the weather is better I will do some more experimenting.

Michael Melb AU said:
My current approach is to be careful with -EV. Camera is very efficient at dealing with whites blowout, and many "blown" images (even JPGs) can be saved with a simple adjustment in image manager. As for RAWs - you are absolutely correct, RAW converter supplied with the camera does the best. Second best for me is Corel Paintshop PRO - that's when I need layers capability of Photoshop. All others I tried - Lightroom 3 and ACDSee5 included - are pretty hopeless with HS30 RAF.

I shot some test images (Raw) at M Fine and put those through the RFC. Much less Chroma noise at high ISO's. Interesting.

Whilst I also have the F200 EXR, this is the first EXR camera I've owned that also shoots Raw. As mentioned, when the weather is better I'll play around some more.

Mark H · Nov 30, 2012

Michael Melb AU said:
Michael Melb AU wrote:

I found HS30 to be excessively noisy in low ISO too. However, it lasted till I compared images taken with HS30 to other 16Mp small sensor cameras' images. They exhibit similar amount and character of noise in underexposed shadows. That is, small sensor cameras with 16Mp sensors do not like the image to be underexposed - it will be noisy with no regard to ISO chosen. Sure, noise gets worse when ISO increases - but with HS30 considerably less steep than with "conventional" Canon or Nikon - thanks to EXR.

It's not really a matter of "...do not like to be underexposed" - it's simply that their pixels are very small, and will consequently be noisier than larger pixels would, both in low light levels at low ISO, and worse still at higher ISOs (to state the obvious).

I've looked into 'Noise v ISO', and the 'EXR-SN' process, in quite some detail...

At the RAW signal/data level there really isn't any real significant fundamental difference between different 'brand' sensors.

At the JPEG level, differences are often simply at the mercy of the different brands' approach to noise reduction, processing,etc.

As for 'EXR-SN' - there is actually a fractional advantage to 'pixel binning' as versus 'down-sampling' (down-sizing), at least in regard of 'noise' - but it's mostly in the shadows, partly in mid-tones, almost nothing in higher tones - but note that Fuji aren't the only people to do pixel-binning; although Fuji's EXR implementation is better than most Bayer pattern binning on terms of resolution/artifacts, due to the EXR layout, but only at some cost, of compromising the EXR's full 'HR' resolution performance.

The colour filter 'clumping' of the EXR sensors must limit full 'HR' resolution to some degree - but another thing I have noticed was, that despite the calculated EXR sensor's noise values being little or no different to other sensors (at full resolution, and normalising for size), sometimes the EXR sensor image actually still actually 'looked noisier' than the conventional Bayer sensors', especially visible in the noisier shadow parts - puzzling at first - but (and whilst I'm not absolutely certain) I strongly suspect that this may also be due to the coarser 'colour filter clumping' of the EXR sensor actually producing a coarser/clumpier noise distribution pattern.

A final thing to note - higher mega-pixel cameras are definitely worse at higher ISO/low-light, than lower mega-pix' cameras with the same sensor size - N.B. Which is exactly why cameras such as the X10/X-S1 are only a conservative 10MP, even though they actually have larger sensors than cameras such as the HS30 which has 16MP. A classic example of a high MP camera being good for low ISO, but quite bad at high ISO, is the 14.7MP Canon G10 - which notably was subsequently superseded by a mere 10MP G11.

The lesson here, if there is one - is that lower MP cameras can actually be better design choice than higher MPs, especially where noise and higher ISO is concerned.

Michael Melb AU · Nov 30, 2012

Thanks for explaining my point in more detail. When posting forums open to general public I try to put my narrative as simple as possible for people to get more sense of it. Still, I find your explanation quite impeccable and concur the point about benefits of lower pixel count in small sensor cameras. My humble opinion is that EXR is one of the ways to make at least some sense of higher pixel count by binning excessive pixels to improve the image quality - while trying to look commercially competitive to less professional customers. Really, who would be buying 8Mp Super CCD cameras in year 2012?

Mark H · Nov 30, 2012

Michael Melb AU said:
Michael Melb AU wrote:

Thanks for explaining my point in more detail.../...I find your explanation quite impeccable...

Thanks - and I wrote all that under the influence of a couple of beers too!

Michael Melb AU said:
...and concur the point about benefits of lower pixel count in small sensor cameras.
My humble opinion is that EXR is one of the ways to make at least some sense of higher pixel count by binning excessive pixels to improve the image quality - while trying to look commercially competitive to less professional customers. Really, who would be buying 8Mp Super CCD cameras in year 2012?

Yes, it is perhaps a little unfortunate, but true.

At least with an EXR camera there is the option to use the max resolution at low ISOs - and then switch to the half-resolution 'EXR-SN' at high ISOs - which is, of course, exactly what the EXR camera does in it's 'EXR-AUTO' mode (where ISO-DR headroom permits).

There are some significant down-sides though, to EXR, as I have observed - a limitation to the max' resolution, possibly coarser noise patterns at full resolution - and something else I forgot to mention previously; there appears to be an undesirable tendancy to produce colour moire effects and demosaicing artifacts/errors too, at least as I have seen in the X10.

One other thing worth a mention - the benefit (albeit fractional) of 'EXR-SN' is probably slightly greater for the smaller size/higher MP EXR sensors like the HS30's etc, than it is for the bigger size/lower MP sensors like the X10/X-S1's, although I haven't got around to modelling the actual difference yet.

Lloydy · Dec 1, 2012

... Thanks for the dissertation.

I'm not one to dig into the why for's so much, as the how to's. Still, valuable information and many will find it useful.

I'll keep experimenting and see what ends up suiting me best for what the HS30 EXR can do.

s_pokkrong · Dec 1, 2012

Do you have any hints for Jpeg shooter?

Pokkrong

Tim39 · Dec 1, 2012

jcmarfilph said:
jcmarfilph wrote:

jcmarfilph said:

Lloydy wrote:

... Excellent comprehensive set of settings. I'll try some of those also. Thanks.

Click to expand...

jcmarfilph · Dec 1, 2012

Tim39 said:
Tim39 wrote:

Tim39 said:

jcmarfilph wrote:

Tim39 said:

Lloydy wrote:

... Excellent comprehensive set of settings. I'll try some of those also. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Chris Dennehy · Dec 1, 2012

Hi,

I'm new to Fuji and EXR sensors just having acquired an F770EXR.

Am I correct in thinking that the forgoing suggestions and information applies to the F770 as it seems to me to from reading the specifications to have the same sensor and processing engine.

Thank you.

HS30 EXR - RAW, Settings and Some Pix ...

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