>>>> Street Photography eXchange #24 <<<

It is a rare man who truly knows himself.

Perhaps that explains why I cannot recognize myself in the straw man arguments you are so eager to refute. But you seem to have enjoyed yourself, so that's for the good.



keep-on-truckin_i-G-37-3722-EMNAF00Z.jpg




Since you are not interested in why the Winogrand quote was idiotic, and why he is not a particularly good street photographer, I will keep my counsel.




--
Frank
All photos shot in downtown Manhattan unless otherwise noted.
Thanks in advance for the kindness of your comments or critiques.
 
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Thank you for the link!

When discussing the " dysfunctional socio-political system" please have in mind that the selection of the subjects of the photographers may be slightly biased: they participated in exhibitions abroad. And we can see an obvious trend which I don't want to name.

Strong photos anyway.
 
Sal18 wrote:

This is a really interesting discussion, but I want to go back a bit.

Apaflo said: "A great example of why looking for a story where none can exist has nothing to do with photography."

OK. I'm pondering this. Am I correct that you are saying that because a single image is just that, single and a split second representation of the moment, that looking for narrative, or story, is irrelevant? If that is your intent, I am baffled. If an image doesn't feed my imagination I have no interest in it. Maybe the story I supply is incorrect, but without one zipping through my head, what's the point? Personally, I think it has everything to do with photography. But that, perhaps, indicates lack of depth in examining what is behind it all. I plead guilty here. It's the story that makes me take a second look, or linger awhile. If the story is specious, so what - the image set in motion a line of reaction without which the image has no validity for me.

If I look at a photo of a baby I think, "Cute" and move on. I have no curiosity. My imagination isn't sparked. Excellence of technique is so what. There is no story. No before. No after. That I don't react is irrelevant, of course. Images are valid, in and of themselves, in different ways, at different times, to different people.

Sal
Well, Sal, of course you are right. The fact that a photograph is a point, a punctum in time does of course mean that the element of sequence is not present, and only implied. It is like the difference between the ancient Greek aorist (which merely means that something happened at a point in time, and a participle it contains the sense of point in time with the sense of past disappearing) and the
Greek imperfect which has the sense of something going on during a period of time. But, wait, there's more! There is also the Greek perfect, which has the sense of completion, of a result of something that happened. A great example of that is the word on the Cross "It is finished." This means not that something has happened, but rather that it has come to fulfillment and is in a state of completion.

But rather than make pedantic arguments - of course a story takes place in the consciousness of the viewer - the same is true of movies (a sequence of still photographs that have to be presented in particular ways for the viewer to make a story out of what happened) or a narrative poem, which is only a collection of words. To fully understand the Iliad and its story it's necessary to know certain conventions which are used in it. Likewise a play is just a bunch of actors on a stage with or without props. And so forth.

But a single image, as I was gently trying to lead the gentleman to discover for himself, can also suggest a story. HCB's photo of the bank run in Shanghai tells a different story when one has the caption than it does just as a visual image. When one knows that, if one is a little well read in history and financial history, it contains the primitive panic that all financial panics can create. It is a icon of both its unique moment in time, of a particular regime collapse, and of all regimes that have ever been overthrown and their effect on the people. It does not tell a story in the sense of "See **** run. Run, run, run." But it tells several stories, and becomes a universal icon of human history in the cultivated mind.

Likewise, HCB's on the Banks of the Marne, was originally a piece of French Communist propaganda. It was meant to be part of a photo spread showing that working people are able to benefit from leisure time. Only 13 years later, did HCB realize this is an iconic photo that can be read in a more general and mysterious fashion and he removed it from its original context. This is the lesson my college advisor tried to teach me about New Criticism. You can't just take a work of art as a thing in and of itself. There are many facts about it, individual to photographer or viewer sometimes (like your take on Xtoph's girl), common to both and to a larger public and so forth that define the response to a photograph. That is why the reputation of artists change over time. The world of reference of each generation changes.

Let's take anti-Americanism that was so rampant in the 50's and 60's among the 'photographic community.' Some of it will perish in the future, like Winogrand's simplistic, basically adolescent-minded shots. OTOH, next to two of them in MOMA now, is Arbus's shot of the Patriotic Young Man covered with buttons and paraphenalia.

patriotic-young-man-with-a-flag-n-y-c-1967-by-diane-arbus.jpg





What she captured was a kind of weirdness and alienation and vulnerability that was not her imposing a political/moralistic view on events, but rather her using all her skill to bring out some essential loneliness, alienation and confusion in the person. That is much more likely to survive, even when our current ideological divisions are historical dust. Likewise, Klein's anti-Americanism appeals to me much more than Frank's does because his energy is greater and his feelings are deeper and his creativity is more compelling. I don't care that he takes things out of context and completely misses the future. It's great Rabelaisian fun.

Amy Arbus in the portraiture course at ICP has had us shoot two sequences. Her constant question was, "Would you go see this movie?" "Who would by this movie?" But she uses the same question on individual images that "have no story." She still says "Who would buy this movie?" Naturally there is no story in any still image --to people who are ignorant, and have no experience of life or feelings, and who know nothing.

Take David's The Oath of the Horatii:

dav_oath.jpg


It's a fairly obscure incident from early Roman history. Few people today would know it, although it had been written about in France, and was less obscure at the time.

But even a generalized knowledge of Roman republican virtue, and of the ideology and propaganda of the French Revolution is enough to sense the power of the image and its story (a detail invented by David.) Yes, I would go to see this movie. I'm a sucker for this kind of film. One could not imagine a painting like this done about the American Revolution, which also imported ideas from Roman history, but rather the story of Cincinnatus who returns to his plow, than this image of insane, family-destroying Republican Virtue.













--
Frank

All photos shot in downtown Manhattan unless otherwise noted.
Thanks in advance for the kindness of your comments or critiques.
 
in a sense (different senses, i suppose), both apaflo and fad are perfectly correct.

floyd (apaflo) has supplied very clear quotations from winogrand on the subject, which are basically reiterating observations that barthes, benjamin, and nietzsche (among others) have made before. firstly, that in a strict sense since a single photo shows no development through time, it cannot contain within itself a narrative or story--which is defined as a series of interconnected events, cause and effect. secondly, and in a more general sense, as nietzsche says in 'the gay science', "we must have the courage to stop at the surface"--a resounding critique of the modern obsession with getting behind what we see, or what is obvious, to insist that it must mean something (and that meaning must be more important than the phenomena which is found to be merely a sign of something beyond it).

the first point might be illustrated by looking at a picture of a sunset. ...or is it a sunrise? how can we possibly know, without a second picture ordered in time? well, perhaps it is looking out to sea from manhattan, in which case we might know that it would have to be a sunrise, if we know the geography. but there's the rub: that knowledge isn't actually contained in the photo. strictly speaking, we bring that from outside the photo and interpret what we see in terms of what we (think we) know.

but what if we were to arrange for a photo to contain elements which somehow universally come to a known conclusion? perhaps a piano, caught in mid-air above a pedestrian on a city street. okay, probably it is not too much of a stretch to infer that the pedestrian is about to get squashed, and that sequence (piano falls; pedestrian squashed) is enough to make a narrative, albeit a simple one. it could be objected that the photo might be fake, or employ illusion to mislead us, but whether the narrative is true or not isn't the question; it is enough for it to simply convey any narrative at all (in a reliably repeatable fashion).

however, photos that actually qualify as containing a story by that strict sense are probably scarcer than hen's teeth. and actually existing photos point the way to another problem: even when a photo catches some event in the midst of inevitable progression, as a picture it may well function in an entirely different way. consider the famous portrait of salvadore dali (dali atomicus); this is not a photo of the inevitability of falling.

for the second, it must be said that a photo is not worth 1000 words; it is simply a photo. words and photos are different. why do we insist that a photo should labor in the domain of text and language? jazz doesn't have to make sense; a cake doesn't have to mean anything. why not pay attention to the visual effects a photo produces--right there on the surface (and a photo is all surface, and all about surfaces)? consider paul strand's famous white picket fence --said to have shaken steiglitz's conceptions of what photography was so fundamentally that it closed out camera work magazine. the graphic contrast would be simply garish and absurd in a painting; but in a photo it both creates a novel visual effect, and retains its link to the scene through the indexical magic of the camera. arguably, photography's highest calling is to seek and develop such photogenic phenomena--that is, things which are not only fundamentally visual in nature, but also characteristic of photography specifically.

but;

the pragmatics of photo viewing support frank's (fad) skepticism towards the rejection of story, if not necessarily his dismissal of winogrand. as sal and others did, when viewing a photograph it is not just natural but probably impossible to avoid letting one's preconceptions, habits, culture, etc shape what you see and how you experience that photo. and many photographers embrace some version of generic viewer, someone they can rely on to make certain assumptions and associations regarding their photographs. photos may not contain stories by themselves, but photos don't view themselves, either, and if there is one thing modern man agrees on it is the importance of story. (this is a whole 'nother can of worms. as an anthropologist, i can say that even if story in some sense is universal, the centrality of intelligible stories is far from ubiquitous; it is bound up in the hegemony of modernity itself.)

personally, it rubs me the wrong way when i hear, constantly, that photos need to tell stories. no, they really do not; they need to be interesting to look at. attaching a 'story' to a photo is basically just another version of a caption, which as barthes pointed out functions to police the image... and why would we want to do that? or at least, do we always need to do that?

part of what has been fascinating about reading the reactions to my 'rough corner' post above is precisely the variety and discrepancy of responses. i doubt we would be better off for all seeing exactly the same thing. (except, isn't that exactly what a photo offers?) even floyd can't keep himself from reading his own story into the photo, supposing that the girl could not have been menaced by the other kids, and that she was probably impeded by the photographer. (neither assumption is actually true, but either is an understandable [if sloppy--the smiling boy we can see isn't visible to the girl, and we don't see the other boy's expression, which was] interpretation of the picture.)

so by all means, let us be clear about the fact that photographs do not contain stories. but that will not stop people from seeing stories in photographs.
 
solveproblems wrote:

Thank you for the link!

When discussing the " dysfunctional socio-political system" please have in mind that the selection of the subjects of the photographers may be slightly biased: they participated in exhibitions abroad. And we can see an obvious trend which I don't want to name.

Strong photos anyway.
Obviously there is a difference in perspective between those who understand that Communism was in some ways worse than Naziism, and those who think a totalitarian regime was perfectly normal.


Just this morning I read about the Communist origins of S. Africa's ANC, and how lucky they were to have moved in another direction:

"Why bring this up now? After all, Communism collapsed more than 20 years ago. The ANC bought into the Washington Consensus. Mr. Mandela lived up to his speech from the dock. Even Mr. Slovo lived to see the light, telling a journalist who interviewed him shortly before his 1995 death that he was ashamed of his lifelong support for the Soviet Union."

A very dear and saint-like old lady we knew used to smuggle bibles into the USSR, where they were illegal. On one trip a man explained that he had blanched when she requested he xerox a small religious book because, if he had been caught doing so, it would mean 8 years in the gulag. For xeroxing a book.

Then there is the small matter of perhaps 80 million people murdered by various Communist governments. Then their is the question of economic catastrophe. Suppression of dissent. Reduced life expectancy. Extreme technological backwardness. Environmental catastrophe. Corruption, lawlessness, paranoia. I am very grateful half my ancestors emigrated from Russia a little over 100 years ago.
 
For once, I completely agree with you.

BTW, the question of Jazz's autonomy is questioned by Benjamin Schwartz in The Atlantic:


He talks about Jazz's dependency on the "Great American Songbook—a notional catalogue of classic popular songs, a body of refined, complex work that stands at the apogee of this country’s civilization, mostly written for the musical theater from roughly the 1920s to the 1950s. ... The Songbook and jazz evolved symbiotically. As the critic Gene Lees showed in an important essay in The Oxford Companion to Jazz (2000), the creators of both were musically sophisticated men and women who inevitably and profoundly responded to each other’s work. (Lees’s scholarship made clear the deep musical education of the jazz pioneers, and in the process put to rest the “subtly racist” idea that “jazz was created intuitively by a gifted but ignorant people in some sort of cultural vacuum.”) The result: the Songbook formed the lingua franca of jazz; its material provided the basis on which to assess a performer’s improvisations; and jazz musicians constructed their own compositions on the chord structures of its entries."

I think one can even say the Strand photo has a story, and you have told it, but it's a purely visual story. It's not a narrative, but a story about photography and seeing. I could even see a movie being made about it.
 
Maybe you are right, but I am speaking about the photos of two nice guys from Novokuznetsk. My opinion is that they have not been anti-communists but selected slightly rusofobian photos for foreign exhibitions, just to make their chances better. It is not a big sin, many people did it like that in the past and do it now. This is my personal feeling, I admit that I might be wrong.

> Obviously there is a difference in perspective between those who understand that Communism >was in some ways worse than Naziism, and those who think a totalitarian regime was perfectly >normal.

Honestly, I think that both these extreme opinions are far from reality. And, by the way, I had a pleasure to live there (not in communism of course, and not in totalitarian regime, just in the Soviet Union). Don't take me wrong, I am not ready fight for anything in this forum.


fad wrote:
solveproblems wrote:

Thank you for the link!

When discussing the " dysfunctional socio-political system" please have in mind that the selection of the subjects of the photographers may be slightly biased: they participated in exhibitions abroad. And we can see an obvious trend which I don't want to name.

Strong photos anyway.
Obviously there is a difference in perspective between those who understand that Communism was in some ways worse than Naziism, and those who think a totalitarian regime was perfectly normal.

Just this morning I read about the Communist origins of S. Africa's ANC, and how lucky they were to have moved in another direction:

"Why bring this up now? After all, Communism collapsed more than 20 years ago. The ANC bought into the Washington Consensus. Mr. Mandela lived up to his speech from the dock. Even Mr. Slovo lived to see the light, telling a journalist who interviewed him shortly before his 1995 death that he was ashamed of his lifelong support for the Soviet Union."

A very dear and saint-like old lady we knew used to smuggle bibles into the USSR, where they were illegal. On one trip a man explained that he had blanched when she requested he xerox a small religious book because, if he had been caught doing so, it would mean 8 years in the gulag. For xeroxing a book.

Then there is the small matter of perhaps 80 million people murdered by various Communist governments. Then their is the question of economic catastrophe. Suppression of dissent. Reduced life expectancy. Extreme technological backwardness. Environmental catastrophe. Corruption, lawlessness, paranoia. I am very grateful half my ancestors emigrated from Russia a little over 100 years ago.
 
fad wrote:

It is a rare man who truly knows himself.
Once again you cannot even discuss the topic. Instead it's back to emotional Ad Hominem attacks on everyone and anyone. Don't expect people to have any respect for that sort of commentary, or to both trying to answer it.
 
Chris says:
"let us be clear about the fact that photographs do not contain stories. but that will not stop people from seeing stories in photographs."
Exactly. Just as we conjure stories when we are people watching without our cameras. At least, I do. Sometimes we just enjoy watching the moments; sometimes we make stories about them in our heads....just as we do when looking at photos. But maybe that's just me....I know I'm quirky.

I learn a lot reading you guys.

Sal
 
What you say is possible. I know that some great photo books about America are quite one-sided, and that NYC is very different from the rest of the country, which I do not know well.


Have you traveled much outside of Moscow? I've heard things are much worse in the provinces.
 
Yesterday




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sign+shots-20121125+-+047665.jpg




sign+shots-20121125+-+047706.jpg


sign+shots-20121125+-+047729.jpg








--
Frank

All photos shot in downtown Manhattan unless otherwise noted.
Thanks in advance for the kindness of your comments or critiques.
 
xtoph wrote:

so by all means, let us be clear about the fact that photographs do not contain stories. but that will not stop people from seeing stories in photographs.
That is exactly the case. A photograph does not tell a story. The stories that emerge are from the mind of the viewer, not from the photograph.

A very useful way to look at the production of photography is that it is a communications medium. The entire point of the photograph is to communicate something specific to the viewer, to create a concept or thought or feeling (whatever you'd like to call it) in the mind of the viewer. Composition is to an image as grammar is to text. We arrange the content of the photograph in a style of syntax that we believe will be understood by the viewer, and thus will transfer our desired concepts into the viewer's mind. (Of course just as not everyone speaks the same languages not everyone reacts to photographs in the same way.)

That is, we put a set of "facts" into the viewer's mind, ordered in the photograph in a way that prioritizes the order and weight they have to the viewer. Studying composition is the study of the psychology of visual perception.

My problem with the comments some had about the picture of the children (and it is the same problem that I have with many commentaries on all photography, but it is particularly rampant in Street Photography discussions, and greatly so in this forum) is the false notion that just any imaginary connection to a story, no matter how loosely related, is a valid part of critiquing a photograph. If it relies on unique knowledge external to the photograph it is not a valid part of such a critique. It is valid only when the knowledge is very likely to be universal within at least some group of viewers.

Commentary by a photographer who says a given image has meaning due to the emotional state of the photographer at the time the shutter was clicked (quite commonly expressed by some very good Street Photographers) is, in my opinion, just so much noise. Their emotional state may lead them to capture better images, but their emotions are not the composition that communicates to the viewer. It's not a direct cause and effect.

Just as bad or worse are imaginary stories that are simply contradicted by the photograph itself. It is absolutely true that women are at risk for violence in American culture... but saying therefore the girl was reacting to there being no adult except the one in the distance is adverse to what the photograph showed. There is first off the distance from the camera to the girl, which clearly then is how close she is to an adult. And there is an arm in the picture to the left, apparently another adult. That adult some distance down the sidewalk has no part in what is communicated by the image to a viewer in that respect. Likewise the total lack of any indication of aggression on the part of the boys themselves. Or for that matter from the girl. It just isn't there. And once again, what is there is a look of concern about what to do with these two adults immediately in front of her blocking the path. I appears that she is deciding whether to go to the right side of the image and scoot between the boys and the camera operator, or try the other side.

Whatever, Winogrand certainly nailed the issue of where the story actually is, and it isn't in the photograph. My issue is why would a critique attribute abjectly unrelated and even contradictory emotional data to a photograph when it isn't there?

Look for real cause and effect issues, not imaginary ones. What effects are actually caused by the image. The shot with the boots has very plausible explanations, none of which are sad. In fact one of them turned out to be true too. The idea of sadness was entirely external to the image. Oppps.
 
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Yes, I traveled (maybe not too much), and yes, in the provices it was considerably worse. The standards of living were awful from the Western point of view.

Of course you can easily find photo gallerys biased in the opposite direction (i.e. pro-soviet), e.g.


There are some pro-soviet and anti-soviet photo exhibitions in Moscow this days, and I visit both kinds with equal pleasure.





fad wrote:

What you say is possible. I know that some great photo books about America are quite one-sided, and that NYC is very different from the rest of the country, which I do not know well.

Have you traveled much outside of Moscow? I've heard things are much worse in the provinces.
 
solveproblems wrote:

Maybe you are right, but I am speaking about the photos of two nice guys from Novokuznetsk. My opinion is that they have not been anti-communists but selected slightly rusofobian photos for foreign exhibitions, just to make their chances better. It is not a big sin, many people did it like that in the past and do it now. This is my personal feeling, I admit that I might be wrong.
You are wrong,I assure you.


> Obviously there is a difference in perspective between those who understand that Communism >was in some ways worse than Naziism, and those who think a totalitarian regime was perfectly >normal.

Honestly, I think that both these extreme opinions are far from reality. And, by the way, I had a pleasure to live there (not in communism of course, and not in totalitarian regime, just in the Soviet Union). Don't take me wrong, I am not ready fight for anything in this forum.
fad wrote:
solveproblems wrote:

Thank you for the link!

When discussing the " dysfunctional socio-political system" please have in mind that the selection of the subjects of the photographers may be slightly biased: they participated in exhibitions abroad. And we can see an obvious trend which I don't want to name.

Strong photos anyway.
Obviously there is a difference in perspective between those who understand that Communism was in some ways worse than Naziism, and those who think a totalitarian regime was perfectly normal.

Just this morning I read about the Communist origins of S. Africa's ANC, and how lucky they were to have moved in another direction:

"Why bring this up now? After all, Communism collapsed more than 20 years ago. The ANC bought into the Washington Consensus. Mr. Mandela lived up to his speech from the dock. Even Mr. Slovo lived to see the light, telling a journalist who interviewed him shortly before his 1995 death that he was ashamed of his lifelong support for the Soviet Union."

A very dear and saint-like old lady we knew used to smuggle bibles into the USSR, where they were illegal. On one trip a man explained that he had blanched when she requested he xerox a small religious book because, if he had been caught doing so, it would mean 8 years in the gulag. For xeroxing a book.

Then there is the small matter of perhaps 80 million people murdered by various Communist governments. Then their is the question of economic catastrophe. Suppression of dissent. Reduced life expectancy. Extreme technological backwardness. Environmental catastrophe. Corruption, lawlessness, paranoia. I am very grateful half my ancestors emigrated from Russia a little over 100 years ago.
 
Apaflo said: "My problem with the comments some had about the picture of the children (and it is the same problem that I have with many commentaries on all photography, but it is particularly rampant in Street Photography discussions, and greatly so in this forum) is the false notion that just any imaginary connection to a story, no matter how loosely related, is a valid part of critiquing a photograph. If it relies on unique knowledge external to the photograph it is not a valid part of such a critique. It is valid only when the knowledge is very likely to be universal within at least some group of viewers."

I think we should recognize that a comment isn't a critique, necessarily. I was commenting, only. I am far too inexpert to critique.

Whatever anyone says about it, what we take away from viewing a photograph is ours. Personal. I find it interesting to learn what others 'see' and compare it with my response. But I wouldn't presume to say that any response is invalid. If there is no response at all, maybe the photo doesn't work. Perhaps a variety of responses indicates it works extremely well.

Sal
 
Hey, Frank...I never said that, did I?? I certainly never thought it! Anyway, these are super. I love the lightheartedness of them. They remind me of someone...who I'm having trouble coming up with. Erwitt? Hmmm. Doisneau? I think there's some Erwitt type humor here?

Sal
 
It is a very good read.

It is interesting for me as a NYer to learn about NYers who went into photography.

Arbus came from a wealthy, art-loving family.

Winogrand was completely lower middle/working class. In a sense his photography always remained plebeian.


Klein came from a mixed family:
Partly it was to escape his family destiny. His father had lost his money in the Wall Street crash and was reduced to selling insurance. His uncle Louis, by contrast, was a top entertainment lawyer, the Phillips in Phillips, Nizer, Benjamin, and Krim, whose clients included Charlie Chaplin, Mae West and Salvador Dalí, and who would, in the case of Benjamin and Krim, take over United Artists and eventually form Orion Pictures.

“Anybody [in our family] who could read and write would end up in this company of lawyers,” said Klein, “My father was like Willy Loman, you know, he never really made it – and he was from a family where there were people who had made it.”


Someone from this kind of family would have a certain kind of hunger, and Klein definitely used art to move up socio-economically. At the same time he advanced the family destiny by becoming more sophisticated.

It's very annoying to be smarter and more sophisticated than the people in one's family who have all the money.
 
Information has come to me from various sources, from former contributors here, about your activity on the net, to whit

Your calling this shot of yours an example of street photography:

Here's an interesting bit of Street Photography. No
people, no pavement, no city. An empty truck parked on
an unmaintained gravel "road". The nearest concrete
sidewalk is 500 miles south. A paradise to some, while
others say it is desolation.




I know of no street photographer who would not call this statement delusional.


Your saying Ansel Adams moonrise photo is street photography

I know of no street photographer who would not also call this statement delusional.

Your uncalled-for personal attacks on Chris and on me.

Your very strange inability to hear what anyone else is saying to you in any forum.

Being called out as the pathological liar of your hometown, Barrow, Alaska


Others can do as they wish, but I've put you on my ignore list.

Good bye.
 
Because it is nearly full (at which point the thread is locked).
 
i appreciate the comments.
fad wrote:
But why the slow shutter speed. What is it supposed to do for us?

I wouldn't mind seeing more detail.



the proximate cause was because i was taking a shot at the post-sunset clouds in the other direction for which i wanted maximum dr, hence stayed at base iso, and then when i turned around and these fellows were there, i hadn't yet readjusted my settings. but i went with it and panned with them, and i like the result. there's actually a fair amount of detail, and the expressions come through i think. as you know, i often like slow shutter speed shots regardless. here, it helps to convey a sense of motion and to keep the colors as rich as possible.

personally, imagining an alternative version at iso 1250 and 1/250th, i don't see a better shot.


 

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