>>>> Street Photography eXchange #24 <<<

To say that images (for how are photos any different) cannot tell a story without sequence is silly.

He was of the time when the New Criticism was dominating literary criticism, especially of poetry. Per wiki: It emphasized close reading, particularly of poetry, to discover how a work of literature functioned as a self-contained, self-referential aesthetic object.

I was a follower of it in high school and college. One of my most brilliant teachers said that New Criticism was correct, but only if you already knew everything else. What he was saying, if you think about it, is that is not the correct approach to works of literary art. It is too simplistic and ignores many things that are true about language.


I will explain more later, but you are utterly and completely wrong, as I was when I was 17 about poetry.

Think about this: for many centuries history painting was considered the highest form of art. Landscapes, portraits, still lifes were considered of lesser artistic value.


So ask yourself, what was the relationship of history painting (when not a sequence) to story?

Think about HCB, for instance his photo of a bank run in China. What is its relationship to story?

Think of the photo in question here. One could look upon the scene as one of loneliness, but in reality that is not what it is about in fact, and there is not much in the image that actually supports that interpretation. What could the photographer have done to make that more a story suggested by the photo.

Perhaps the story of this photo is the story of the photographer not making a convincing story out of interesting scene. Perhaps he should have emphasized the surrealistic or mysterious nature of the scene. Perhaps the scene is not that interesting. It is, in fact, very hard to create a good photo out of found items on the street even when they strike you.


apaflo wrote:
fad wrote:

It is very difficult to learn to create believable images that tell a story. But there is no alternative.
"I don't have to have any story telling responsibility to what I am photographing. I have a responsibity to describe well -- in fact that's a photograph -- they're mute, they don't have any narrative ability at all, you know what something looked like, but you don't know what's happening ...

There isn't a photograph in the world that has any narative ability, any of them.

They do not tell stories, they show you what something looks like, through a camera. The minute you relate this thing to what was photographed, it's a lie. It's two dimensional, it's illusional ..." ~~ Garry Winogrand

Winogrand nailed it. Images that "tell a story" don't, that's the viewer's imagination creating what does not exist. And imagination is absolutely a wonderful and fascinating thing... but really, what one imagines about a photograph should be related to the photograph, not based soley what we had for dinner or some other unrelated experience. That is particularly true when the imaginary story is literally contradicted by what is in the photograph!

Telling a story requires an interval of time. It can be done with two or more photographs, but not with one. That is almost always the distinction between any single image and a well done sequence of images, because the sequence has the additional feature of actually showing what happened as it tells a story.
 
fad wrote:

Could you explain why, Zubu. It does very little for me.
Because it is deeply rooted in the best of street photography from the past.


Zubu Barunda wrote:

Chris, this is one of your finest street shots posted on this forum. I am deeply impressed and totally in love with it.
xtoph wrote:





m6ttl+28/2+tri-x
--
Frank
All photos shot in downtown Manhattan unless otherwise noted.
Thanks in advance for the kindness of your comments or critiques.
 
She wasn't there the week that I was. You are lucky to have a class with her! Probably one of the best things about living in the city is ICP. You would love MMW. I call it Camera Camp. It would be wonderful to be able to do more than one week.

Sal
 
Yes, those of us who were only inconvenienced are really lucky. Did you see the article in today's NY Times Review section on the rising waters and what's going to be under water?

Sal
 
fad wrote:

To say that images (for how are photos any different) cannot tell a story without sequence is silly.

He was of the time when the New Criticism was dominating literary criticism, especially of poetry. Per wiki: It emphasized close reading, particularly of poetry, to discover how a work of literature functioned as a self-contained, self-referential aesthetic object.
Saying Winogrand is "a grade A nimcompoop" is a very good start on branding everything you say as being of no import at all. You've graded yourself, and shown what you are...

Let's note that Wingrand received three, count them, Guggenheim Fellowship Awards in his life. He exhibited at New York's Museum of Modern Art and at the George Eastman House too. In fact, the Director of Photography at the Museum of Modern Art became his editor. That's just the beginning of what he was, and we should specifically note that he precisely was a Street Photographer, which is what this forum and this thread are about, and Winogrand is widely recognized by virtually everyone as being one of the most significant Street photographers who has ever lived.

Who are you to even hint that Winogrand is not precisely correct in his understanding of photography and specifically Street Photography, much less to call him a 'nimcompoop'! Please explain what credentials, qualifications, or accomplishments you have to make such judgments! Otherwise your name calling will stick to you rather than to Winogrand.

I might also note that regardless of the total lack of merit for the basis of your statements, they also are the exact same sort of imaginary excess (which is to say logically invalid on their face) that the ideas presented about "stories" from photographs represent. An emotional rant against a philosophical concept you are unable to grasp!

(Edit: Incidentally, Wikipedia is not a "reliable" source, but you should have actually read the articles you cited, because they specifically disagree with your discussion.)
 
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Thank you so much for these links. Stunning photography...perfect street photography.

Sal
 
I have no intention of getting into an argumentum ad hominem because it is irrelevant to the question at hand. Wionogrand's biography (he was very good at building up contacts) is also irrelevant to the correctness of his opinions. Diane Arbus also won Guggenheims and, according to Meyerowitz, she was unimpressed with Winogrand. So we can hardly call an argument from authority authoritative, especially since W's authority is as a career photographer, not as a critic.

I called him a grade A nimcompoop out of affection. We are both native NYers, he from the Bronx, I from Alphabet City, and that's how NYers talked about each other in those days. Unlike him, though, I never had an accent. It's tricky though to use such subtle linguistic locutions on an international forum.

You, sir, however, have repeated W's ideas as if they were absolute truth, correct at all times and everywhere. I have asserted that they are bunk, based on a primitive understanding of language and art, and challenged you to think about them and, by doing so, to defend them on higher ground than just authority, or, else, by thinking about them more clearly, to put them in a broader and more sophisticated context to your own benefit.

You could start by answering my questions, which I think will lead the discussion forward.

You are free to ignore my challenge, if you wish.

The sun will still rise tomorrow, and there will be pictures that need to be taken.
 
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It's not as easy as it seems.


won%27t+you+be+my+friend-20121125+-+047691.jpg





--
Frank

All photos shot in downtown Manhattan unless otherwise noted.
Thanks in advance for the kindness of your comments or critiques.
 
Well, thanks for the quote. Even though I am not one of Wiongrand's many fans, I enjoyed reading it and thinking about the question and where it fits into midcentury criticism.

There are many ways to do street photography, and many ways to think about it.
 
You've given me the first funnybone-ticler of the day, Frank!

Sal
 
fad wrote:

Well, thanks for the quote. Even though I am not one of Wiongrand's many fans, I enjoyed reading it and thinking about the question and where it fits into midcentury criticism.

There are many ways to do street photography, and many ways to think about it.
And one thing about it is pretty clear too: a single photograph shows you what was there, and can tell nothing at all about what was happening which is required to make it a story. That is why Winogrand was dead on correct about a photograph not being narrative.

That is part and parcel of understanding that a photograph is an illusion, and a photograph is not in itself reality. You are not going to find any valid support for the idea that a photograph is, as a representation of a reality, telling us a story.

Susan Sontag said that a photograph is "indeed able to usurp reality because first of all a photograph is not only an image, an interpretaation of the real; it is also a trace, something directly stenciled off the real." She said that photographing people violates them by turning them "into objects that can be symbolically processed". That is, she said, the purpose of photography is to depect (not to be) reality, and that "to photograph is to frame, and to frame is to exclude." Exclusion of all but a selected depiction of reality at one instant cannot tell a story because a story, by definition, must be about what happened, the history, the occurance of past multiple events.

You claimed that Meyerowitz says Diane Arbus did not like the work of Garry Winogrand, which of course is a total Non Sequitor; the fact is that on this topic she apparently agreed with Winogrand. Arbus herself was extremely narrative about her photographs and typically told complex stories about each of them... but she never claimed that the photograph told the story; she had to tell it separately. She even denied that what the photograph showed was as important just who it showed. She said photographs are a bit cold and harsh because they don't show what the photographer felt, they don't allow the viewer to evade facts in the way the photographer's feelings do, because the photograph shows what is there (not some story associated with it).

I'm sorry, but you aren't going to find valid support for this idea that a single photograph tells a story. That is virtually by definition! A story is temporal, a photograph is not. A story is a history, a narration of what has happened. Look it up in a dictionary! A photograph cannot be any of those things. It is a depiction of part of reality at only one specific instant. A slice of time, but not a comparison of times. Hence never a story.
 
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This is a really interesting discussion, but I want to go back a bit.




Apaflo said: "A great example of why looking for a story where none can exist has nothing to do with photography."

OK. I'm pondering this. Am I correct that you are saying that because a single image is just that, single and a split second representation of the moment, that looking for narrative, or story, is irrelevant? If that is your intent, I am baffled. If an image doesn't feed my imagination I have no interest in it. Maybe the story I supply is incorrect, but without one zipping through my head, what's the point? Personally, I think it has everything to do with photography. But that, perhaps, indicates lack of depth in examining what is behind it all. I plead guilty here. It's the story that makes me take a second look, or linger awhile. If the story is specious, so what - the image set in motion a line of reaction without which the image has no validity for me.

If I look at a photo of a baby I think, "Cute" and move on. I have no curiosity. My imagination isn't sparked. Excellence of technique is so what. There is no story. No before. No after. That I don't react is irrelevant, of course. Images are valid, in and of themselves, in different ways, at different times, to different people.

Sal
 
beautiful shot. not only does the juxtaposition really work visually, the expression takes it to another level entirely.
 

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