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Just how good is the 20/1.7?

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Pasmia

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I'm ready for a change. I currently have the g3 with the 14, 25, and oly45. With the cash i have on hand plus the sell of my g3 and 14mm, I don't have quite enough to upgrade to the em5. However, if I include my PL25 in the sell, I'd have enough for the em5 kit and 20mm. I'm keeping my oly 45 regardless. My dilemma is that the PL25 has been my fav lens of the three (also had 14-45/45-200 but sold due to collecting dust) and feel that I might be giving up too much for too little. I am really happy with the PL25 performance, fl, and IQ but the size is on the verge of unacceptable. The kit lens with the em5 is justified IMO due to weathersealing and will be used almost exclusively for times that ask for it (beaches, snow, rain, playgrounds, pools, other dusty or wet environments). My plan is basically to have the em5 and 20mm 90% of the time hanging from my neck. The 12-50 in conditions that are relevant/necessary for sealing, and the 45 is simply used for portraits and kept at home with my studio gear.

Right now, the g3 and pl25 is almost always with me everywhere I go. The bulkiness of it is getting a little annoying though. I even found myself taking pics with my phone because I left the g3 at home a couple of times (defeating the whole purpose of going with m43 in the first place). However, the PL25 allows for a decent secondary portrait lens, an amazing and fast af shooter in low lighting, great for what little videography I do (not much tbh) , and sharp when I want it to be and soft when I need it to be as well. In all, it's a very versatile and useful lens, but what good is it if it's left at home?

So, I'm seriously considering the 20mm/f1.7. I'm scared that the fl won't be as versatile but I hated the 50mm efl at first too. I think the 40mm efl will put a little too much distortion to be used as a secondary portrait lens (My studio is limited in size, backing up would make the lens wider than my canvas, the PL25 is just narrow enough). I'm also scared that the supposed slow AF won't be able to keep up with my kids. And lastly, I wonder if that 1/2 stop aperture will have an impact on what i'm used to.

Pertaining to my body upgrade, I'm pretty much done with color correcting and playing with wb sliders in LR because lumix is inconsistent as hell in this regard and I want to give Oly a shot before fleeing off to a different mount. D5100 is dirt cheap now with a mix of a couple of 1.8s and a fast third party zoom is tempting Regardless of its bulk.

And if it wasn't obvious enough, I primarily take pictures of my family but I really do my best in making sure that its not all snap shots. I try to think of every picture as a lifestyle portrait, incorporating composition, decisive and fleeting moments, good lighting, and capturing emotions as well.
 
Solution
micksh6
Pasmia said:
Pasmia wrote:

Just to make it clear, I'm wondering if the 20mm can effectively replace the PL25 in most if not all of my uses.
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That's exactly what previous dozens of 20 vs 25mm threads were about. One of these is still on the first page of this forum. And your needs are not unique, in fact they are pretty much common.


I stopped arguing about this few months ago because I can't repeat myself that many times. These lenses are very different. One doesn't replace another.


Only you can answer this question because the answer depends on your overall priorities and how bad you need extra $200.


I suggest asking this question: Has anyone sold 25mm F1.4 lens for 20mm lens and became happier? Otherwise you will be overwhelmed with...
I have both.

I will keep both.

Both are great - but the 25:1.4 is amazing, whereas the 20:1.7 is "merely" excellent. :)


You can take fantastic pics with both.
 
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It is. The 25 is faster focusing and the colors are better. But the 20mm is sharper. The 20mm is slower to focus, but in the ballpark anyway.
 
Pasmia said:
Pasmia wrote:
Pasmia said:
berni29 wrote:

Hi

I use the 20mm with my EM5 because the combination can come with me anywhere. any bigger and I would probably leave it at home at least some of the time. Plus the 20mm is a good lens and compromise focal length.

Thats the bottom line for me. I want the camera to be with me.
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The 25mm

+ Really good smooth IQ at f1.4, i practically use it wide open only

+ Great as a walk around lens for taking photos of "street details"

+ Gave me tons of great upper body portait shots (especially if you are inside or sit close to someone, the 45mm Olympus is great, too, but for my uses i have to step back too far in most cases)

- Bulky (hey, it's even a little bigger than the 45mm Olympus)...

+ ... but still looks great on my GX1 and on my black E-P3

- Sometimes rattling noises on the E-P3 but swtiching the cam off before mounting the 25mm helps

- The rubber ring is a dust magnet and hard to clean

-> Highly recommended if you can/want to afford it




The 20mm

+ Small and light and, for what it can do, very cheap


+ Feels like a very sharp wide angle lens, similar in feel to a X100 (so not really comparable in field of view to the 25mm)

+ Sharp at f1.7, very sharp already at f2

+ Very unobstrusive package on a GX1 or GF3/5

- Don't like the looks on the E-P3 (but the GX1 is where it should be anyway)

-> Highly recommend, too, as a poor man's X100 walkaround lens with the option for blurred backgrounds if you get close enough to the object




I will keep them both! :-)
 
Mingjai said:
Mingjai wrote:
I suspect the 20mm is slightly wider than its nominal focal length because it's very close to my 9-18mm at 18mm.
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I see a significant difference in your examples, certainly enough to accommodate the 2mm difference.

I think perhaps some of the "wider than it says" claims come from measurements from a raw conversion without the design-specific software corrections, where its FoV is closer to that of a 18mm lens albeit with lots of barrel distortion.

But used correctly with software corrections applied - as the designers intended - it's pretty much exactly 20mm.

PS: I don't currently own this lens but I owned and used it in its early years when heated controversy surrounded this exact point. I confirmed the matter of "real" FL myself, believing nothing I read on the internet as "fact" without evidence.
 
With the holidays coming I recently compared FOV's for shooting indoors, both the 25mm and 20mm being considered for their low-light capability. I found 25mm would not allow me to capture the scenes adequately, while 20mm was just enough wider to allow this.

They're both compelling lenses. If a wider FOV, size and price are major considerations, then it's the 20mm f1.7. As for 20mm, I can say that the Olympus 40mm f2 was one of my all time favorite lenses, just wide enough without introducing noticeable distortion on the edges, simply a very nice FOV.


All lenses have compromises, and with the 20mm it's AF speed and, based on these and other posts, that extra little step towards truly special colors/IQ that the 25mm seems to offer, albeit with a larger size and price.

There's also a million posts on both lenses, but I think it boils down to the above.
 
Pasmia said:
Pasmia wrote:

And if it wasn't obvious enough, I primarily take pictures of my family but I really do my best in making sure that its not all snap shots. I try to think of every picture as a lifestyle portrait, incorporating composition, decisive and fleeting moments, good lighting, and capturing emotions as well.
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. . . I use the 20/1.7 quite a lot with my OMD and am very happy with it.
 
There arguments about autocorrection making the shot smaller. AFAIK the 20 mm is after correction in(panny)cam. Oly cams don't do it, hence the lens is a bit wider. Not 100% sure though.
 
Jorginho said:
Jorginho wrote:

There arguments about autocorrection making the shot smaller. AFAIK the 20 mm is after correction in(panny)cam. Oly cams don't do it, hence the lens is a bit wider. Not 100% sure though.
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Right and wrong. The focal-length, and, more importantly, field-of-view specifications of MFT lenses are after, not before, any automatic software-correction of distortion. The opposite would be directly misleading.

However, this distortion correction is carried out by Panasonic and Olympus bodies alike for any lens that demands it.

What you are thinking about is probably another type of software correction where there is a difference between brands. Lateral CA is auto-corrected only when a Panasonic lens is used with a Panasonic body. In all other cases, it is not auto-corrected.
 
I borrowed the 20mm - liked it a lot

Then I bought the 25mm - and liked it a lot as well


I missed the small size of the 20mm though and have bought that as well now ...


I would rather not upgrade the camera if it meant getting rid of one or the other of these lenses - for me they are complementary....


As you suggested yourself if the 25mm gets in the way now and again then I think its a good idea to buy the 20mm AS WELL. I think you will find yourself using both lenses quite alot. If not there is a simple answer ... sell the one you don't use...


Then save up for the EM5... by the time you have saved half the money the OMD will have come down in price to meet you. Job done...


If you thought the G3/25mm combo was too bulky sometimes, then the Nikon D5100, even with the 35mm f/1.8, is going to be even bulkier I would have thought ???....
 
zenit_b said:
zenit_b wrote:

I borrowed the 20mm - liked it a lot

Then I bought the 25mm - and liked it a lot as well

I missed the small size of the 20mm though and have bought that as well now ...

I would rather not upgrade the camera if it meant getting rid of one or the other of these lenses - for me they are complementary....

As you suggested yourself if the 25mm gets in the way now and again then I think its a good idea to buy the 20mm AS WELL. I think you will find yourself using both lenses quite alot. If not there is a simple answer ... sell the one you don't use...

Then save up for the EM5... by the time you have saved half the money the OMD will have come down in price to meet you. Job done...

If you thought the G3/25mm combo was too bulky sometimes, then the Nikon D5100, even with the 35mm f/1.8, is going to be even bulkier I would have thought ???....
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I'm fairly certain I'm going to end up with both some time in the near future.

As for the Nikon D5100, I'm just admiring the price of the combo. It was more of a consideration for my wallet than any form of an actual reality. But yes, you're right, I would leave that big black soap bar to rot on my bookshelf like a collectible rock.
 
I have the 20, and it is undeniably a sharp lens, but I often feel like it's a little clinical in its rendering. Maybe that's a good thing, but I can't say I feel any love for it. I keep hearing people say the PL25 has a bit of character, so I'd be a little wary of dumping it for the 20 without doing a real comparison.
 
Excellent comparison photos.

But I wouldn't go and assume the 20mm is really an 18mm. First of all, there's a definite difference in FOV between the 9-18 and the 20, although much less of a difference than between the 20 and the 25.

The results could easily be explained by the 9-18 really being 9-18.4 and the 20 really being a 19.6. Think about it. And maybe the 25mm is really 25.4mm?

Rounding error seems like a much more likely explanation for what you see than Panasonic calling an 18mm lens a 20mm lens.
 
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It's my most used lens on my PEN. It's sharp and fast and a pancake to boot.

However, for me the 20mm length is neither fish nor foul and if I could have a 25mm pancake and a 12mm or 14mm that was equally as good I'd dump it. Even a 25mm and decent 17mm would be OK.

Before I get flamed, let me explain...
  1. I like good pancake lenses as they enhance small size of the MFT system and many manufacturers have shown they can be made - Pentax, Oly (FT), Panny and now even Canon plus others I'm sure
  2. I dumped the Oly 17mm 2.8 as I found it to be very mediocre outside the centre area and had terrible CA
  3. The Panny 14mm pancake struggles to beat kit lenses even a little way from the centre
  4. There isn't a native MFT 25mm 1.8(ish) pancake
  5. I'd like 3 decent primes and I'd be happy - a wide pancake, a standard pancake and a portrait (which I have, the Oly 45mm)
So my view on the Panny 20mm is that it's a compromise - not ideal for people portraits as it distorts (without care) compared to a 50mm equiv and it's not quite wide enough for landscapes or architecture.

That said, as far as compromises go it's not a bad one :)
 
I have the 20 and use it probably more than my other lenses. The difference in focal lengths may be more significant than you think. I used to do a lot of my film photography on a Minolta CLE with the 40mm Rokkor lens, so I'm very comfortable using a 20mm as a "normal" lens on M43. You may not be, so check this out before you make this kind of change.
 
First picked up the 20mm. Then added the 25mm. (Also have the 45mm, 75mm, and the Rokinon 7.5mm primes. Only one I'm missing is the 12mm prime.) Sold off the 25mm. Reason - the 20mm simply suited my vision much more for an all around prime. It's just wide enough to work for how I see the world. The 25mm did not though it is nominally faster in low light. Both are very good lens. The fact that the 20mm is so compact is a bonus. Focusing speed is good enough for me with the EM5.

In short, if budget is limited, I would go for the 20mm and add a bit more money and spring for the 45mm over the 45mm. If money is no object, then you can get both 20 and 25mm. For me, it was not the cost but the fact that I did not want to carry another lens that I would not use that often. The 20mm is closer to 18mm which is what I do prefer.

MTMT
 
sansbury said:
sansbury wrote:

I have the 20, and it is undeniably a sharp lens, but I often feel like it's a little clinical in its rendering. Maybe that's a good thing, but I can't say I feel any love for it. I keep hearing people say the PL25 has a bit of character, so I'd be a little wary of dumping it for the 20 without doing a real comparison.
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Could you please define "clinical" and "character"? As far as I have understood the usage so far, "clinical" means that the lens is optically correct whereas "character" is a short-hand for optical aberrations.
 
I have both. Both are great lenses. But my bottom line is this. The 20mm is on my em5 most of the time. I take it everywhere. The 25mm I use rarely. I'll probably sell the 25 because I hate to have lenses I don't use.

Thats just me.

Tom

www.kachadurian.com

Call me crazy. I happen to like photos of cats.
 
Pasmia said:
Pasmia wrote:
So, I'm seriously considering the 20mm/f1.7. I'm scared that the fl won't be as versatile but I hated the 50mm efl at first too. I think the 40mm efl will put a little too much distortion to be used as a secondary portrait lens (My studio is limited in size, backing up would make the lens wider than my canvas, the PL25 is just narrow enough). I'm also scared that the supposed slow AF won't be able to keep up with my kids. And lastly, I wonder if that 1/2 stop aperture will have an impact on what i'm used to.
... I primarily take pictures of my family but I really do my best in making sure that its not all snap shots. I try to think of every picture as a lifestyle portrait, incorporating composition, decisive and fleeting moments, good lighting, and capturing emotions as well.
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My subject interests are the same as yours, and I'm very happy with the 20/1.7 and 45/1.8 combo. Here's a few samples from the 20.



CAM41042%20mr.jpg







CAM85845%20mr%20bw-XL.jpg


CAM35462%20mr-XL.jpg


CAM64725%20mr.jpg


Examples are fine, but you need to form your own opinion. Why not slow down, buy a 20/1.7, use it on your current camera, and see how it works out. If it's OK, sell the 25 and buy the OMD. If not, sell the 20 and save up for a while until you can buy an OMD. It'll just take you a week to test out the 20 + 45 combo.

--
Warm regards, Frank
Galleries at fdrphoto.smugmug.com
 
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I hope you added the vignettng in post? Otherwise, beautiful shots and a lovely family! And you're right, I really need to try it for myself first and slow down a bit.

The whole OMD thing is more out of a dissatisfaction in my own camera and quite frankly, as much as I've researched the OM-D, it's still not the perfect solution to my needs, but definitely closer than my G3. I am indeed scared that I'll reject that camera as well for one of the following: weight, audible noise in IS, loose knobs, tiny buttons, issues with P20/PL25, lack of built in flash, wheel adjustment delay, D ring protrusion, battery grip contact rot, or even just the extra bulk of the VF pyramid. I'd like to think that I'm not just another victim of GAS but I'd also like to think that my belt has shrunk over the past couple years.

My original thoughts going into m43 was to have a nearly pocket-able/palm-able set up. I some how got sucked into a couple of deals here and there and persuaded by pixel peeping tests on the internet. I'm a sucker for deals and I'm a sucker for well written/documented articles not just pertaining to photography. I thought that camera gear choices based on affordability and scientifically proven methods would amount to a great kit, well, I was wrong.

I now have a camera bulkier than I prefer with a lens that's bulky and expensive (also have P14 and O45 which I do love and not planning on getting rid of). I was originally drawn to M43 specifically because of someone with a GF1 here on the forums. Some gal that had an aftermarket grip on it with the LVF1 and the 20mm. I followed suit and purchased a GF2 because it was cheaper than the GF1. Got the PL25 because lens tests across the internet told me too. I really did like the GF2, but the lack of controls and ports made the camera feel like a point and shoot with interchangeable lenses. Mix that in with not being able to shoot above ISO800 and an LVF1 that kept popping off, I had to upgrade. I almost immediately found a great deal for the G3 which in total, cost me $350 back in February/March. The G3 is perfectly proportional to the PL25, but much larger than that gal's GF1 w/ 20mm that I originally got influenced by. Now I'm all sorts of screwed up because I've grown to depend on a swivel screen and I love the IQ of the PL25.

Do you see my dilemma? lol. And yes, that GF2 was my first camera above a random sub $200 P&S. Now there's the EM5 which has the swivel screen I like. Weatherproofing, which seems logical and useful living in a place that rains 9 months out of the year. Better skin tones from what I can see in samples and most of what I shoot is portraits and documentary style photos of my family. A built in EVF that's not as awkward as the G3's, though a little awkward vertically, and it's not going to fall out like the LVF1. Also, it's about 10x more aesthetically pleasing to my eye than the mini DSLR form factor of the G3 (this is subjective, I know, but it is still a factor).

Anyways, this whole thing just got drawn out a bit much. Bottom line is, I don't have enough money for it right now and I'm actually just going to spend what money I do have on presents for my family before I forget. I might go out and pick up the Rokinon 7.5 soon just to take my mind off of all of this until after the holidays. This isn't spontaneity by the way, I've been planning on picking the Rokinon up for a while now. Just got side tracked by catching myself leaving my camera at a home recently and creating this whole thought process above. Thanks a lot for your thoughts everyone... if anyone's actually reading all of this. o_O
 
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