I've decided I need a bigger sensor

Dheorl said:

Dheorl wrote:

Well, I don't need a bigger sensor, I want a bigger sensor. I'm also still keeping my m4/3 gear, I just used that title because I know people on here love an argument.

Basically I have a GH2, am planning on buying either a Sigma DP2 Merrill or medium format back of some sort with a "standard" lens pretty much always on the front. This means I'll have pretty much unbeatable image quiality at approx 45mm (35mm equiv) but not steller focus.

I'm trying to decide how to optimize my m4/3 gear to fit around this. The GH2 obviously does brilliant movies which neither of the options mentioned do so it kinda makes sense to keep it, although I'm not using the movie function half as much as I was hoping. I would be sorely tempted by the EPL-5 if they didn't go and put a 16:9 screen on a 4:3 camera. I guess I might learn to live with it because no matter how much I try and convince myself, I just don't like working with viewfinders.

My main query is re lenses though. I currently have the kit zoom, 45-200mm and samyang fisheye. Keeping the fisheye seems sensible. Not sure what to have to go with it though. I guess my current lens setup isn't bad in the sense it offers me the convinience of a zoom that the other cameras don't. One option I'm thinking of is picking up a 14mm pancake so I can have the sigma, and then a m4/3 camera with this mounted at the same time. The other option I'm thinking of it picking up the 9-18mm zoom and the 45-150mm zoom, especially if I get the EPL-5, giving me a wide angle zoom for when I want wide grab shots and don't have time/not suitable subject to stitch with the sigma, the sigma itself for covering a "normal" focal length and the tele if I want to get a close up of something. Seem like a reasonable plan.

Basically how would you guys work your gear around having a camera with a fixed standard prime?

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Dheorl said:

Dheorl wrote:

Well, I don't need a bigger sensor, I want a bigger sensor.

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jalywol said:

jalywol wrote:

jalywol said:

Dheorl wrote:

Well, I don't need a bigger sensor, I want a bigger sensor. I'm also still keeping my m4/3 gear, I just used that title because I know people on here love an argument.

Basically I have a GH2, am planning on buying either a Sigma DP2 Merrill or medium format back of some sort with a "standard" lens pretty much always on the front. This means I'll have pretty much unbeatable image quiality at approx 45mm (35mm equiv) but not steller focus.

I'm trying to decide how to optimize my m4/3 gear to fit around this. The GH2 obviously does brilliant movies which neither of the options mentioned do so it kinda makes sense to keep it, although I'm not using the movie function half as much as I was hoping. I would be sorely tempted by the EPL-5 if they didn't go and put a 16:9 screen on a 4:3 camera. I guess I might learn to live with it because no matter how much I try and convince myself, I just don't like working with viewfinders.

My main query is re lenses though. I currently have the kit zoom, 45-200mm and samyang fisheye. Keeping the fisheye seems sensible. Not sure what to have to go with it though. I guess my current lens setup isn't bad in the sense it offers me the convinience of a zoom that the other cameras don't. One option I'm thinking of is picking up a 14mm pancake so I can have the sigma, and then a m4/3 camera with this mounted at the same time. The other option I'm thinking of it picking up the 9-18mm zoom and the 45-150mm zoom, especially if I get the EPL-5, giving me a wide angle zoom for when I want wide grab shots and don't have time/not suitable subject to stitch with the sigma, the sigma itself for covering a "normal" focal length and the tele if I want to get a close up of something. Seem like a reasonable plan.

Basically how would you guys work your gear around having a camera with a fixed standard prime?

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I'm puzzled by your choices.

I guess what confuses me is what in particular about the larger sensor it is that you are looking for that the M43 format won't do for you? Do you want fast focus tracking, or very shallow DOF, or more detail in images, or huge prints? Neither the medium format nor the Sigma are focus tracking stars, so I suspect that's not the issue...

In terms of shallow DOF and image detail....I have a suggestion. You are using kit zooms for almost all of your work. Neither the kit zoom nor the tele zoom are stellar performers in terms of sharpness, contrast, or DOF (because they are so slow with a base aperture of f3.5 or so....). Wouldn't it make more sense to invest in a couple of fast primes before you try a different format entirely?

Get away from the zooms for a while; in general the sharpness, microcontrast, color rendition, and speed are all going to be significantly better in primes than the zooms you have. Pick up the Oly 45m f1.8 for portraits. Then, instead of getting the Sigma with the 41mm equiv lens, you might want to get the 20mm or 25mm Panasonic lenses, which are both worlds better than the kit lenses in every way imaginable. The 25mm has almost legendary IQ according to everyone who has used one....and it's not beastly expensive, either. The 20mm is remarkably sharp and is a bargain for what it offers in terms of performance. If you want to go wide, the 14mm is a nice place to start and it is inexpensive. If you have deep pockets the Oly 12mm is a great lens (I have both the 14mm and 12mm Oly, and enjoy using both, but the Oly is a wonder in terms of microcontrast, color rendition and detail).

All of these primes will give you better DOF (due to wider minimum apertures), better sharpness, better color rendition, and better microcontrast than your current lenses. Why not try this route before switching?

-J

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REShultz said:

REShultz wrote:

I think Jaywol's post is great.

Personally, I'm using a DP2 and will buy back into M43 soon after being away for a year. The strategy will be to have a 14mm and 45mm. That covers wide and portrait fields of view and low light shooting. Then for a normal field of view and the extra bump an APS-C sized sensor gives you I'll use the DP2.

Just be aware that a DP2 is a very unique camera. You will have to get used to slower focusing and be very aware that low light shooting is not an option (in color). You will also have to use Sigma's software for RAW conversion. The pics will be unique and wonderful in good conditions. But if this is a pit stop only, you'll probably move on quickly. It takes time.

Finally, M43 became much more attractive to me after the new Sony sensor was developed. I think it's right on the doorstep of APS-C quality. IQ seems like less of a motivator to me to buy into the larger sensor (except if you go full frame). A greater motivator is to use a camera that has a really unique file quality (DP2 fits here) or one that has a unique shooting experience (Fuji x100 with viewfinder).

The biggest hitch with M43 for me is still the EVF. Hate them. In most all other ways, they have arrived.

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Dheorl said:

Dheorl wrote:
The other thing I want is better sync speeds for flashes. Medium format cameras can sync right up to 1/500 compared to the m4/3 standard sync speed of 1/160. AFAIK the DP2 can sync right up to 1/2000.

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Member said:

dpalugyay wrote:

I did one of those Photography symposiums put on by Tamron this year. It was for a local airshow, and a buddy and I went for a few hours on a Friday evening to go over composition and technique in a classroom with several dozen people that had signed up. Saturday, we were tasked to go out to the airshow and take photos, submit two favorite photos at the sponsor's tent, then meet up Saturday evening at the business sponsoring the event to cover our experienses.

The room was full of full frame Canons and Nikons. I mean FULL of just Nikons and Canons. Lots of pretty black and white lenses, red and gold rings all laid out like jewelry in front of each participant. Tamron had loaned out all kinds of full frame glass to try to bring in some sales as well. One by one, everyone's photos went up on the screen while the event organizer and the Tamron rep critiquing and getting the opinion of the crowd.

There were lots of prizes to hand out, but the 1st prize was to be a Tamron telephoto stabilized lens. It looked like a fair performer, maybe a bit better that a kit lens. The problem was, it wasn't going to work very well on my Olympus stashed away in my small LowePro bag.

As my photos came up and comments were made and eyebrows raised, noone suspected that in my little LowePro bag was my OMD with the 12mm f2 attached. The one I shot with that day. I didn't think I would stand a chance among the large sensors and glass belonging to 30 other people in that room. As my name was called to come and claim my prize, I was dissapointed that this Tamron lens I had just won was made for another brand of camera, but I was happily convinced that sensor size made no damn difference after that photo contest. I gave the lens to my Canon buddy who sold it and game me back the cash.

Do what you have to do. But please do it for the right reasons or you might be throwing away your hard-earned money on something you really might not need.

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Member said:

dpalugyay wrote:

I did one of those Photography symposiums put on by Tamron this year. It was for a local airshow, and a buddy and I went for a few hours on a Friday evening to go over composition and technique in a classroom with several dozen people that had signed up. Saturday, we were tasked to go out to the airshow and take photos, submit two favorite photos at the sponsor's tent, then meet up Saturday evening at the business sponsoring the event to cover our experienses.

The room was full of full frame Canons and Nikons. I mean FULL of just Nikons and Canons. Lots of pretty black and white lenses, red and gold rings all laid out like jewelry in front of each participant. Tamron had loaned out all kinds of full frame glass to try to bring in some sales as well. One by one, everyone's photos went up on the screen while the event organizer and the Tamron rep critiquing and getting the opinion of the crowd.

There were lots of prizes to hand out, but the 1st prize was to be a Tamron telephoto stabilized lens. It looked like a fair performer, maybe a bit better that a kit lens. The problem was, it wasn't going to work very well on my Olympus stashed away in my small LowePro bag.

As my photos came up and comments were made and eyebrows raised, noone suspected that in my little LowePro bag was my OMD with the 12mm f2 attached. The one I shot with that day. I didn't think I would stand a chance among the large sensors and glass belonging to 30 other people in that room. As my name was called to come and claim my prize, I was dissapointed that this Tamron lens I had just won was made for another brand of camera, but I was happily convinced that sensor size made no damn difference after that photo contest. I gave the lens to my Canon buddy who sold it and game me back the cash.

Do what you have to do. But please do it for the right reasons or you might be throwing away your hard-earned money on something you really might not need.

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Bob Meyer said:

Bob Meyer wrote:

Bob Meyer said:

Dheorl wrote:
The other thing I want is better sync speeds for flashes. Medium format cameras can sync right up to 1/500 compared to the m4/3 standard sync speed of 1/160. AFAIK the DP2 can sync right up to 1/2000.

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MF cameras can sync up to 1/500th sec ONLY if you use a leaf shutter lens ($$$). MF format cameras with only focal plane shutters are limited to slow sync speeds, too.Probably slower than the m43 bodies.

I a quick search I didn't find flash sync speeds for the DP2, but since it uses a leaf shutter you're probably correct. Of course, the flip side is that you're restricted to one focal length only (and the other limitations discussed in other posts.

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Dheorl said:

Dheorl wrote:

Dheorl said:

Basically I have a GH2, am planning on buying either a Sigma DP2 Merrill or medium format back of some sort with a "standard" lens pretty much always on the front. This means I'll have pretty much unbeatable image quiality at approx 45mm (35mm equiv) but not steller focus.
I would be sorely tempted by the EPL-5 if they didn't go and put a 16:9 screen on a 4:3 camera. I guess I might learn to live with it because no matter how much I try and convince myself, I just don't like working with viewfinders.

Click to expand...

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Dheorl said:

My main query is re lenses though. I currently have the kit zoom, 45-200mm and samyang fisheye. Keeping the fisheye seems sensible. Not sure what to have to go with it though.

Click to expand...

Dheorl said:

I guess my current lens setup isn't bad in the sense it offers me the convinience of a zoom that the other cameras don't. One option I'm thinking of is picking up a 14mm pancake so I can have the sigma, and then a m4/3 camera with this mounted at the same time. The other option I'm thinking of it picking up the 9-18mm zoom and the 45-150mm zoom, especially if I get the EPL-5, giving me a wide angle zoom for when I want wide grab shots and don't have time/not suitable subject to stitch with the sigma, the sigma itself for covering a "normal" focal length and the tele if I want to get a close up of something. Seem like a reasonable plan.

Basically how would you guys work your gear around having a camera with a fixed standard prime?

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Corkcampbell said:

Corkcampbell wrote:

I understand completely your desire for a DP2 to augment your m4/3 system. I have the original DP2 and really, really like its stills despite the slowness of the system (which was greatly improved with FW upgrades), etc. On many of my trips, I have found that the DP2 has a higher percentage of keepers; I also like the shallow DOF ability and lens sharpness.

I would also agree with others that you should consider adding primes to your current system - for example, the 14mm 2.5 (which I use a lot) is less than $200, if bought on ebay from those who took it out of a kit (which is what I did). The (also affordable) Oly 45mm 1.8 will help you get some shallow DOF from your m4/3 camera.

A couple of notes: I also have a GH2, but never really liked its stills output (RAW or JPEG), but have a couple of OM-Ds which I like much, much better for stills. I will also probably keep the GH2 for its video capabilities and because of its low resale right now.

I have considered the DP2 M but hesitate because of its slowness and file size - I pay attention to updates on its use on Luminous Landscape. I also might miss the built-in flash. However, I will probably end of getting one as I once thought the same of the DP2 but found that I was very happy that I had purchased the weird, ugly little camera - I once had a person ask how old it was, about two days after I bought the first one available! And, since I usually have a second camera with me, the lack of flash is not much of an issue.

I also have the 9-18, but use the 14mm prime more.

Lastly, I have a very good Sony system (A77, etc.) but it's not used much - it's far easier to carry the m4/3 cameras and lenses (often with the DP2 thrown in the bag), than the big dSLR and even a couple of lenses. Although I like it (especially the shallow DOF with its primes), I fear it's headed to ebayland. I'd keep it if I had children, or took a lot of photos of people inside...but most of my shooting is done away from the home, making portability an issue.

To sum up, getting a DP2 (or similar), while tweaking your m4/3 system (more primes, perhaps a different body than the GH2 - I consider my OM-D a huge improvement over my GH2 in everything but video) is a great solution, and can be done incrementally.

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micksh6 said:

micksh6 wrote:

micksh6 said:

Dheorl wrote:

micksh6 said:

Basically I have a GH2, am planning on buying either a Sigma DP2 Merrill or medium format back of some sort with a "standard" lens pretty much always on the front. This means I'll have pretty much unbeatable image quiality at approx 45mm (35mm equiv) but not steller focus.
I would be sorely tempted by the EPL-5 if they didn't go and put a 16:9 screen on a 4:3 camera. I guess I might learn to live with it because no matter how much I try and convince myself, I just don't like working with viewfinders.

Click to expand...

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Same thing here. I even mostly used display on E-M5, ignoring viewfinder. The screen on E-PL5 is a serious drawback, no questions about it. The question is how important it is. I'm used to LCD screens on E-P3 and E-EM5. But, I also bought E-PM1 for cheap as a backup camera several months ago. The screen is small but for me it's good enough to serve main purpose - view the composition and select focus point even in bright sunlight. E-PL5 screen shouldn't be worse, but I don't know if you (or even me) will be able to live with that all the time.

I ordered E-PL5 yesterday with an intent to use it as a main camera (bought large grip with that too, same large grip I use on E-P3. It significantly improves handling). It will arrive next week, will see how it goes.

As for MF format digital back in the list of choices - I don't know what to say. You must a be a very confused and a very rich man if you are choosing between Sigma compact (BTW, it's 1.73 crop, almost the same sensor height as m4/3 sensor) and medium format. So different kinds of cameras.

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Dheorl said:

Dheorl wrote:

Dheorl said:

micksh6 wrote:

Dheorl said:

Dheorl wrote:

Dheorl said:

Basically I have a GH2, am planning on buying either a Sigma DP2 Merrill or medium format back of some sort with a "standard" lens pretty much always on the front. This means I'll have pretty much unbeatable image quiality at approx 45mm (35mm equiv) but not steller focus.
I would be sorely tempted by the EPL-5 if they didn't go and put a 16:9 screen on a 4:3 camera. I guess I might learn to live with it because no matter how much I try and convince myself, I just don't like working with viewfinders.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Same thing here. I even mostly used display on E-M5, ignoring viewfinder. The screen on E-PL5 is a serious drawback, no questions about it. The question is how important it is. I'm used to LCD screens on E-P3 and E-EM5. But, I also bought E-PM1 for cheap as a backup camera several months ago. The screen is small but for me it's good enough to serve main purpose - view the composition and select focus point even in bright sunlight. E-PL5 screen shouldn't be worse, but I don't know if you (or even me) will be able to live with that all the time.

I ordered E-PL5 yesterday with an intent to use it as a main camera (bought large grip with that too, same large grip I use on E-P3. It significantly improves handling). It will arrive next week, will see how it goes.

As for MF format digital back in the list of choices - I don't know what to say. You must a be a very confused and a very rich man if you are choosing between Sigma compact (BTW, it's 1.73 crop, almost the same sensor height as m4/3 sensor) and medium format. So different kinds of cameras.

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Yea, the screen does worry me. In general I'm happy composing on LCD screens, I just don't see why olumpus had to make the usable area so small.

Is the sigma really only 1.73? I thought it was standard APS-C size (I'm referring to the Merrill) I could have sworn I read it's 30mm lens is a 45mm equiv. The mdeium format is admitadly for a different reason (the fact I'll be able to compose with a waist level OVF) but it will still mean I'll have a camera with stunning IQ and a fixed normal lens.

Where did you read about the EPL-5 having a sync speed of 1/250? Also the hgh speed sync functions/ND filter ideas don't really work for what I want the flash for.

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micksh6 said:

micksh6 wrote:

micksh6 said:

Dheorl wrote:

micksh6 said:

micksh6 wrote:

micksh6 said:

Dheorl wrote:

micksh6 said:

Basically I have a GH2, am planning on buying either a Sigma DP2 Merrill or medium format back of some sort with a "standard" lens pretty much always on the front. This means I'll have pretty much unbeatable image quiality at approx 45mm (35mm equiv) but not steller focus.
I would be sorely tempted by the EPL-5 if they didn't go and put a 16:9 screen on a 4:3 camera. I guess I might learn to live with it because no matter how much I try and convince myself, I just don't like working with viewfinders.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Same thing here. I even mostly used display on E-M5, ignoring viewfinder. The screen on E-PL5 is a serious drawback, no questions about it. The question is how important it is. I'm used to LCD screens on E-P3 and E-EM5. But, I also bought E-PM1 for cheap as a backup camera several months ago. The screen is small but for me it's good enough to serve main purpose - view the composition and select focus point even in bright sunlight. E-PL5 screen shouldn't be worse, but I don't know if you (or even me) will be able to live with that all the time.

I ordered E-PL5 yesterday with an intent to use it as a main camera (bought large grip with that too, same large grip I use on E-P3. It significantly improves handling). It will arrive next week, will see how it goes.

As for MF format digital back in the list of choices - I don't know what to say. You must a be a very confused and a very rich man if you are choosing between Sigma compact (BTW, it's 1.73 crop, almost the same sensor height as m4/3 sensor) and medium format. So different kinds of cameras.

Click to expand...

Yea, the screen does worry me. In general I'm happy composing on LCD screens, I just don't see why olumpus had to make the usable area so small.

Is the sigma really only 1.73? I thought it was standard APS-C size (I'm referring to the Merrill) I could have sworn I read it's 30mm lens is a 45mm equiv. The mdeium format is admitadly for a different reason (the fact I'll be able to compose with a waist level OVF) but it will still mean I'll have a camera with stunning IQ and a fixed normal lens.

Where did you read about the EPL-5 having a sync speed of 1/250? Also the hgh speed sync functions/ND filter ideas don't really work for what I want the flash for.

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I might be wrong about DP2 Merrill sensor size. I looked at this picture, but it could be old, pre-Merrill info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Sensor_sizes_overlaid_inside_-_updated.svg&page=1
Anyway, I don't think the difference between 1.5 and 1.7 crops is that important, DP2M has only F2.8 lens.

Sure, E-PL5 has 1/250s flash sync speed. First, it's in camera manual, and then DPR specs also mention it. It's the same as E-M5.
http://www.olympus.co.jp/en/support/imsg/digicamera/download/manual/pen/man_epl5_e.pdf
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/olympus-pen-e-pl5-e-pm2/2

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