How big would a 250mm f/2 stabilized lens be for a CX formfactor?

rmpossible

Active member
Messages
81
Reaction score
1
Location
US
When I look at the difference of size between the 70-300 FX lens and the 55-300 DX lens, I was wondering what a 250mm f/2 prime would come in at if it were built to the CX form-factor. I usually shoot D3 and D300, but lugging around a 400, 500 0r 600mm lens is getting more difficult for shooting bird and other wildlife as I get older. i have a V1 and was thinking, such a lens might be a prefect fit for my needs. Any thoughts?
 
rmpossible wrote:

When I look at the difference of size between the 70-300 FX lens and the 55-300 DX lens, I was wondering what a 250mm f/2 prime would come in at if it were built to the CX form-factor. I usually shoot D3 and D300, but lugging around a 400, 500 0r 600mm lens is getting more difficult for shooting bird and other wildlife as I get older. i have a V1 and was thinking, such a lens might be a prefect fit for my needs. Any thoughts?
Do you mean a lens with an actual focal length of 250mm or a lens with a focal length of 90mm (250mm equivalent for a 2.7X crop factor)? There's a big difference between the two.

A 250mm f/2 is going to be the same size if it covers FX, DX or CX. You don't save anything by limiting it's coverage. It's going to have a front element with a diameter over 125mm and a bunch of heavy glass behind it. It will, in fact, look like a 200mm f/2 only bigger. This is known as big and heavy. It will also cost like a 200mm f/2 only more. This is known as horribly expensive.


A 90mm f/2 is going to be the same size as the 85mm f/1.8G, again regardless of the field that it's going to cover.
 
Leonard Migliore wrote:
rmpossible wrote:

When I look at the difference of size between the 70-300 FX lens and the 55-300 DX lens, I was wondering what a 250mm f/2 prime would come in at if it were built to the CX form-factor. I usually shoot D3 and D300, but lugging around a 400, 500 0r 600mm lens is getting more difficult for shooting bird and other wildlife as I get older. i have a V1 and was thinking, such a lens might be a prefect fit for my needs. Any thoughts?
Do you mean a lens with an actual focal length of 250mm or a lens with a focal length of 90mm (250mm equivalent for a 2.7X crop factor)? There's a big difference between the two.

A 250mm f/2 is going to be the same size if it covers FX, DX or CX. You don't save anything by limiting it's coverage. It's going to have a front element with a diameter over 125mm and a bunch of heavy glass behind it. It will, in fact, look like a 200mm f/2 only bigger. This is known as big and heavy. It will also cost like a 200mm f/2 only more. This is known as horribly expensive.


A 90mm f/2 is going to be the same size as the 85mm f/1.8G, again regardless of the field that it's going to cover.
But a 90/2 will behave like a 250/5.4 on a FX camera, which would be a longish, thinnish lens. To work like a 250/2 it would have to be a 90/0.75, which is not impossible. the closest I can think of is the famous Zeiss Planar 50/0.7 used by Stanly Kubrick for Barry Lyndon

Kubrick-lens.jpg


Not a small lens to put on the front of your V1!

--
Bob
 
If you mean 250mm focal length, 250mm divided by f2 makes a massive 125mm minimum front element glass.

This is similar to the size of the 300, 400, 500 and 600mm prime front elements. It is possible to make the rear of the lens a little smaller for exclusive CX format, but as most of the weight is in the region of the front element any such lens would be FX format.

Going back in history Olympus made a 250 f2 lens for the OM system. It weighed over 8 pounds - and did not have VR or AF.
 
rmpossible wrote:

When I look at the difference of size between the 70-300 FX lens and the 55-300 DX lens, I was wondering what a 250mm f/2 prime would come in at if it were built to the CX form-factor. I usually shoot D3 and D300, but lugging around a 400, 500 0r 600mm lens is getting more difficult for shooting bird and other wildlife as I get older. i have a V1 and was thinking, such a lens might be a prefect fit for my needs. Any thoughts?
 
Leonard Migliore wrote:

A 250mm f/2 is going to be the same size if it covers FX, DX or CX. You don't save anything by limiting it's coverage. It's going to have a front element with a diameter over 125mm and a bunch of heavy glass behind it. It will, in fact, look like a 200mm f/2 only bigger. This is known as big and heavy. It will also cost like a 200mm f/2 only more. This is known as horribly expensive.


A 90mm f/2 is going to be the same size as the 85mm f/1.8G, again regardless of the field that it's going to cover.



I am indeed looking for a CX with an actual focal length of 250mm. I have been arould long enough to know the expensive and heavy part. I have been around photography for over 35 years(arghhh, has it been that long?) and have shot the 400, 500 and 600mm Nikon offerings on everything from a D50 to D300s to D3s.


Leonard, I mean no criticism nor insult, but I wonder if such an absolute number works. Maybe I am missing something DX lenses are quite a bit smaller than FX lenses. Just take a look at what we know, a 55-300mmVR DX f/4.5-5.6 lens is 4.8" long and around 19oz and a 58mm filter size; while a 70-300mmVR FX f/4.5-5.6 is 5.6" long and weighs 26.3oz. with a 67mm filter size. So, maybe I am presuming a bit too much, but the front eliment is significantly smaller on the 55-300 than it is on the 70-300. The difference is about 13% give or take a bit.

I know there are a lot of variables with zooms that I don't understand, but I was under the understanding that the front element needs to be at least big enough to support the maximum focal length.

We gauge everything by the 35mm field of view; but with DX, 4/3 and CX we have smaller and smaller fields of view which negates the need for the larger eliments. Near as I can tell, a 250mm f/2 lens would give me a field of view equivalent of 675 and a maximum f/5.6 give or take a bit. (225mm probably would be OK as that is closer to the FOV of 600mm). Point is, the lens doesn't quite need all that extra glass. I know this lens would be big, but I am wondering if it would be as big as so many folks claim.


Of course this is theoretical, because I seriously doubt that this lens will ever be made. But I suspect that if made, the lens would not be as big as a 125mm front element. Anybody out there, I would be interested as to why or why not this would work.
 
But a 90/2 will behave like a 250/5.4 on a FX camera, which would be a longish, thinnish lens.
Only for purposes of approximate depth of field, not for exposure. Nor would it be any longer than a 90mm f/2 for an FX camera, although some of the rear elements could be made lightly smaller.
 
rmpossible wrote:
Leonard Migliore wrote:

A 250mm f/2 is going to be the same size if it covers FX, DX or CX. You don't save anything by limiting it's coverage. It's going to have a front element with a diameter over 125mm and a bunch of heavy glass behind it. It will, in fact, look like a 200mm f/2 only bigger. This is known as big and heavy. It will also cost like a 200mm f/2 only more. This is known as horribly expensive.


A 90mm f/2 is going to be the same size as the 85mm f/1.8G, again regardless of the field that it's going to cover.
I am indeed looking for a CX with an actual focal length of 250mm. I have been arould long enough to know the expensive and heavy part. I have been around photography for over 35 years(arghhh, has it been that long?) and have shot the 400, 500 and 600mm Nikon offerings on everything from a D50 to D300s to D3s.


Leonard, I mean no criticism nor insult, but I wonder if such an absolute number works. Maybe I am missing something DX lenses are quite a bit smaller than FX lenses. Just take a look at what we know, a 55-300mmVR DX f/4.5-5.6 lens is 4.8" long and around 19oz and a 58mm filter size; while a 70-300mmVR FX f/4.5-5.6 is 5.6" long and weighs 26.3oz. with a 67mm filter size. So, maybe I am presuming a bit too much, but the front eliment is significantly smaller on the 55-300 than it is on the 70-300. The difference is about 13% give or take a bit.
The minimum size of the front element is an absolute number. It can't be smaller than the focal length divided by the f/number. That's how the light gets in and you need the area. So a 250mm f/2 has to have a front element at least 125mm in diameter regardless of the field.

What may be confusing you is the short end. If you build a zoom or, for that matter, any retrofocus lens, the front element has to be bigger than the limit established by the f/number to prevent vignetting at the wide end. In your examples, we have a couple of lenses that are f/5.6 at 300mm. That's 54mm. The 55-300 DX lens seems pretty close to that but the 70-300 FX lens is much bigger. That extra size is a consequence of the lens design and is related to how it's configured at the wide end. You could probably build a 70-300 FX lens that's the same size as the 55-300 DX; it's just not how they made that one.
I know there are a lot of variables with zooms that I don't understand, but I was under the understanding that the front element needs to be at least big enough to support the maximum focal length.
As I noted, the front element has to be at least as big as the focal length over the f/number. But a lot of SLR lenses are retrofocus. I have a 10-24 Nikkor. This lens is f/4.5 at 24mm, which suggests that the front element has to be 5.3mm across. But it's actually 47mm across so that the lens can cover 109 degrees without hitting the reflex mirror. So in this case, the front element has to be big enough to support the minimum focal length.
We gauge everything by the 35mm field of view; but with DX, 4/3 and CX we have smaller and smaller fields of view which negates the need for the larger eliments. Near as I can tell, a 250mm f/2 lens would give me a field of view equivalent of 675 and a maximum f/5.6 give or take a bit. (225mm probably would be OK as that is closer to the FOV of 600mm). Point is, the lens doesn't quite need all that extra glass. I know this lens would be big, but I am wondering if it would be as big as so many folks claim.


Of course this is theoretical, because I seriously doubt that this lens will ever be made. But I suspect that if made, the lens would not be as big as a 125mm front element. Anybody out there, I would be interested as to why or why not this would work.
A 250mm f/2 must have a front element at least 125mm in diameter. Otherwise it wouldn't be an f/2. A 250mm lens has no trouble covering FX or, for that matter, 6X6. So you don't save anything by limiting the image circle. Note that there are very few DX lenses above 35mm; you just don't save a whole lot. At short focal lengths, it is easier to make a DX lens than an FX lens but you still have the same mirror clearance, making DX wide angles fairly large themselves. The Nikon 1 system eliminates that, so you could have really tiny wide angles. And a system with a 2.7 crop factor allows you to use shorter lenses to get equal fields of view.
 
Last edited:
Michael Benveniste wrote:
But a 90/2 will behave like a 250/5.4 on a FX camera, which would be a longish, thinnish lens.
Only for purposes of approximate depth of field, not for exposure.
Who cares about exposure? It is the same as the f/5.4 for the amount of light forming the image, which is what sets the noise, so the slowest shutter speed that you can use. In any case, at normal subject distances the DOF is the same to a good degree of precision.
 
bobn2 wrote:
Only for purposes of approximate depth of field, not for exposure.
Who cares about exposure? It is the same as the f/5.4 for the amount of light forming the image, which is what sets the noise, so the slowest shutter speed that you can use.
The amount of light forming the image is exposure, so it sounds like you care about it. An f/2.0 lens is an f/2.0 lens, no matter how big or small an image circle it covers.
 
Michael Benveniste wrote:
bobn2 wrote:
Only for purposes of approximate depth of field, not for exposure.
Who cares about exposure? It is the same as the f/5.4 for the amount of light forming the image, which is what sets the noise, so the slowest shutter speed that you can use.
The amount of light forming the image is exposure, so it sounds like you care about it.
That's where you are wrong. The amount of light forming the image is the exposure times the area of the sensor. Exposure is measured in lux-seconds, and lux is lumens per square metre. To get amount of light (lumens) you need to take the area into account.
An f/2.0 lens is an f/2.0 lens, no matter how big or small an image circle it covers.
Certainly it is, but the amount of light that goes into the image depends on the f-number and the sensor area, not just the f-number.
 
Sorry my reply is so late... been rather busy. For lack of a desire to debate this further, I will aqueous to your explanation. Still not 100% convinced, but I can live with that. Thanks for the time.
 
Sorry but little to no change in size. f/2 at 250 means the aperture has to be 125mm (about 5 inches)! This is the same as the 500 f/4. This would be a very fat lens similar to the 200 f/2.

Cropped sensors do not help with lens size much (if at all) on the telephoto end since the size of the lens is governed by the aperture wide open. On the normal to wide end CX and DX form factors do allow for smaller lenses since 50 f/2 is only 25mm or 1 inch and the size of the elements is more in proportion to the size of the sensor being focused upon.

Think about a 18-55 DX kit zoom. It is f/5.6 at 55mm or less than 10mm of aperture. The lens is obviously still much larger than this largely due to the size of the sensor that needs to be focused upon.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top