A Simple Answer to the Most Asked Question

The 1D or the 10D, the 1Ds or the S2 Pro, which camera to buy? Simple answer: Buy one try it out, return it, try another, till you find the one you like! I never deal with any outlet that does not have a satisfaction guarantee. Don't be afraid. Buy one that you think will do, try it out for 10 days, 20 days, even 30 days. Keep all boxes, packing, ties, booklets, CD's in perfect order. Baby the camera with your life. Return it with no hassles what so ever. No questions are usually asked (except if it is defective). Of course you paid shipping, but isn't it worth the tryout? I can never understand the trepidation so many face when thinking of returning a product. Hey, that was part of the deal, and make use of it. The company selling you the product wants you to be happy. Buy the final product from them, to pay them back for their liberal policy, and you are the ultimate winner.--
TJ

What do you do if each camera that you get in the mail has obviously been used? The manuals aren't originally sealed, the ties on the cables are originally wound... and you can see fingerprint on the lcd cover?

Then you start to worry why this camera was returned? Is it defective in some way that you don't know about? Should you be getting a used camera when you paid for a new one?

I think if everyone did this, products would cost twice as much since the manufacturer would have to spend so much time and money to repackage and restore it all!

I don't think its fair to do that, especially when you have stores that you can go and play with it at, even if it isn't from the store where you intend to buy it. I for one want my new product to be completely factory sealed.

Kiran

I regard return policies as protection from faulty gear, not as a substitute for becoming well-informed prior to the purchase.

Kiran P said:

What do you do if each camera that you get in the mail has
obviously been used? The manuals aren't originally sealed, the
ties on the cables are originally wound... and you can see
fingerprint on the lcd cover?

Then you start to worry why this camera was returned? Is it
defective in some way that you don't know about? Should you be
getting a used camera when you paid for a new one?

I think if everyone did this, products would cost twice as much
since the manufacturer would have to spend so much time and money
to repackage and restore it all!

I don't think its fair to do that, especially when you have stores
that you can go and play with it at, even if it isn't from the
store where you intend to buy it. I for one want my new product to
be completely factory sealed.

Kiran

Click to expand...

tom jacobson said:

The 1D or the 10D, the 1Ds or the S2 Pro, which camera to buy?
Simple answer: Buy one try it out, return it, try another, till
you find the one you like!

Click to expand...

That is not reasonable! If a camera user did this, there would be no Canon / Nikon trolls to deal with. People would be happy with their equipment and spend time taking pictures and exchanging photographic tips rather than tips / bitches about the toy that does not measure up. DPREVIEW would have to change it's forum list from "cameras orientation" to "subject orientation" such as "digital sports photography", "Weddings", "sexy young ladies", etc.

Interestingly, my local photographic emporium has the basic attitiude that, if they figure out that you are a "serious" buyer, then have no problems letting you try the equipment to see if you like it overnight or, if you really butter them up, even a few days.

If you estabilish a good relationship with them, the bend over backwards to make sure you can take pictures. I purchased a DSLR from them. Unexpected noise problems were noted at ISO 1600. They immediately sent the camera to the manufacturer's repair site and loaned me a Nikon D1x + lenses to ensure that I could meet my shooting requirements - at no charge!!

With service like this, I have no problems paying a few percent more on any purchase. The funny thing is that their prices are usually as low or lower than most other stores in Canada. On the rare occasion that the are slighty higher in price (for example, $50.00 more on a Canon S9000 than their local competion) I gladly pay the small surcharge to ensure I get continued excellent service when truly needed.

tony

tony field said:

tom jacobson said:

The 1D or the 10D, the 1Ds or the S2 Pro, which camera to buy?
Simple answer: Buy one try it out, return it, try another, till
you find the one you like!

Click to expand...

That is not reasonable! If a camera user did this, there would be
no Canon / Nikon trolls to deal with. People would be happy with
their equipment and spend time taking pictures and exchanging
photographic tips rather than tips / bitches about the toy that
does not measure up. DPREVIEW would have to change it's forum list
from "cameras orientation" to "subject orientation" such as
"digital sports photography", "Weddings", "sexy young ladies", etc.

Click to expand...

Phil, can we have a "sexy young ladies" forum please?

Kiran,

Kiran P said:

What do you do if each camera that you get in the mail has
obviously been used? The manuals aren't originally sealed, the
ties on the cables are originally wound... and you can see
fingerprint on the lcd cover?

Click to expand...

You take care not to abuse the situation. I don't open manuals, unless I have to, and then meticulously handle them, save all ties and redo, and clean up the camera so it looks absolutely new and fresh. If you return an item and it looks "used" they will not accept it or they will charge a restock fee.

Kiran P said:

Then you start to worry why this camera was returned? Is it
defective in some way that you don't know about? Should you be
getting a used camera when you paid for a new one?

Click to expand...

No. I prefer to get a camera that has been customer tested (me). They do not send out defectives, they get returned to manufacturer. As long as the warranty is full, I don't care if it has been in someone's possession for a week or two.

Kiran P said:

I think if everyone did this, products would cost twice as much
since the manufacturer would have to spend so much time and money
to repackage and restore it all!

Click to expand...

See above.

Kiran P said:

I don't think its fair to do that, especially when you have stores
that you can go and play with it at, even if it isn't from the
store where you intend to buy it. I for one want my new product to
be completely factory sealed.

Click to expand...

That's your choice. It is totally fair, as that is the policy of the dealer and they want you to deal with them and to be happy. It is less fair to play with a camera in store and then buy it from another mail or interenet dealer. TJ

Kiran P said:

Kiran

Click to expand...

--
TJ

tom jacobson said:

Simple answer: Buy one try it out, return it, try another, till
you find the one you like!

Click to expand...

Or, if you prefer to not be a giant weasel, you could try to rent the gear, or borrow from a local dealer for the purposes of eval, or borrow from a friend, or meet up with a local camera club and see if someone there will let you get some hands-on time with their camera. In other words, make sure that the person on the other end of the deal understands what your intentions are, and agrees to them.
-harry

hm said:

hm said:

Simple answer: Buy one try it out, return it, try another, till
you find the one you like!

Click to expand...

Or, if you prefer to not be a giant weasel....

Click to expand...

make sure that the person on the other end

hm said:

of the deal understands what your intentions are, and agrees to
them.
-harry

Click to expand...

That is precisely what a satisfaction (no questions asked) policy means. If you are not satisfied for any reason, just return the item. That is pretty clear to both parties. I am not saying that the customer should claim that the item is defective, etc., when asking for a refund. If you are not happy, send it back. As I said in an earlier post, they will never ask why you are returning the item.
--
TJ

tony field said:

tom jacobson said:

The 1D or the 10D, the 1Ds or the S2 Pro, which camera to buy?
Simple answer: Buy one try it out, return it, try another, till
you find the one you like!

Click to expand...

That is not reasonable! If a camera user did this, there would be
no Canon / Nikon trolls to deal with. People would be happy with
their equipment and spend time taking pictures and exchanging
photographic tips rather than tips / bitches about the toy that
does not measure up. DPREVIEW would have to change it's forum list
from "cameras orientation" to "subject orientation" such as
"digital sports photography", "Weddings", "sexy young ladies", etc.

Interestingly, my local photographic emporium has the basic
attitiude that, if they figure out that you are a "serious" buyer,
then have no problems letting you try the equipment to see if you
like it overnight or, if you really butter them up, even a few days.

If you estabilish a good relationship with them, the bend over
backwards to make sure you can take pictures. I purchased a DSLR
from them. Unexpected noise problems were noted at ISO 1600. They
immediately sent the camera to the manufacturer's repair site and
loaned me a Nikon D1x + lenses to ensure that I could meet my
shooting requirements - at no charge!!

tony

Click to expand...

I agree with you, Tony.

I bought my D60 from my local camera shop after considerable experimentation there with several cameras. They allowed me to use my own card and walk around the neigborhood and shoot some pix. (Yes, I have delt with them a bit and they know me.)

THey even let me put the images on their MAC to compare the images from different cameras on the spot.

I paid $50 more than if I had bought the D60 from mail-order. I surely would have spent more than that in shipping had I done the same with a mail-order house.

Prompt service and advice is another freeby that came with my camera. When mine was returned for ERROR1 they gave me a loner while mine was gone.
The few bucks I would have saved just didn't seem worth it.
One caviat! It can take some time to find a dealer this good.

Joe
--
Joe

More and more stores are specifically exempting certain high-ticket items from their satisfaction guaranteed return policies precisely because of people doing what you're suggesting. It is not free. The stores (the honest ones at least) cannot simply repackage your return and sell it as new. It gets sent back to the manufacturer and gets sold as a refurb. The whole process costs a couple hundred dollars, which is amortized over the cost of units which are sold (higher prices).

Ideally there'd be two prices - one for people who do their research and make what they feel is the best decision based on their research, and one for people like you who want to play around with all their choices before deciding. Unforutnately the stores have no way of telling us apart, so your behaviour has the side-effect of driving up my prices as well as removing my safety net if I should make a good faith research-based purchase and later find a show-stopping flaw missed by my research. Do not be surprised when people call you weasel because of this.

If you're going to be doing this, at least be up front about it and use your own coin to rent the cameras rather than abusing the return policy.

tom jacobson said:

hm said:

tom jacobson said:

Simple answer: Buy one try it out, return it, try another, till
you find the one you like!

Click to expand...

Or, if you prefer to not be a giant weasel....

Click to expand...

make sure that the person on the other end

tom jacobson said:

of the deal understands what your intentions are, and agrees to
them.
-harry

Click to expand...

That is precisely what a satisfaction (no questions asked) policy
means. If you are not satisfied for any reason, just return the
item. That is pretty clear to both parties. I am not saying that
the customer should claim that the item is defective, etc., when
asking for a refund. If you are not happy, send it back. As I
said in an earlier post, they will never ask why you are returning
the item.
--
TJ

Click to expand...

I bring this up simply because our policies were extremely good, providing fair and informative buying experiences for each and every customer - just translate into camera-ease, and it'll all make sense. We did this by:

a) providing a showroom for customers to see/touch/hear the equipment rather than only having second-hand knowledge from a forurm or a magazine review to rely upon

b) for serious customers (not the ones who wanted to simply have a party that night/weekend so they could violate noise ordinances) we allowed them to borrow the equipment so long as it was returned by the time we opened the next business day - can't sell to OTHER customers what we didn't have to show on the floor

c) we supplied them with product literature, personal experiences from OUR demos of the equipment (a nice perk to take a $60,000 theater system home for a weekend just to "try it out") =) so they could continue reading about it, much like we all would on forums and such

by doing this we were able to stick to a more rigid, but not entirely STRICT, return policy. No one enjoys paying full price for a product they know has been "tested" by another customer. For this reason, we limited that testing to the floor models only, which would later be sold at a discount when a new replacement product line came out. Otherwise, as others have eluded, we'd have had to charge a lot more because of the extra testing time and repacking time (very few know how to properly repack a product so it looks like new ... that is an art) =)

This just made everything easier for us while ALSO giving the customer every opportunity to try out the equipment to their satisfaction.

A camera shop I go to - Camera Mart - kind of lends itself to similar policies. I didn't purchase my 10D from them since they didn't have any for a while, but when it came time to try out some new lenses, they gladly pulled one from their floor display to let me shoot around the store, and even outside of the store - I discreetly left my camera bag on their counter so they'd know I wasn't going to take off on them.

Anyway, research all you can. Read the forums, read others' experiences with a product, go to the camera store and try it out for yourself, check into their product loan policies, and make yourself as informed as possible BEFORE you plunk down the charge card or the cash. Don't put them through the extra hassle as a result of your indecision. I respect the position taken by Tom; but I don't necessarily agree with it. In an ideal world we'd have a table full of "options" from which we can make our comparisons, but the fact of the matter is, it's more complicated than that, and there are plenty of avenues that we can each pursue to make that informed decision.

Okay, I'm done. =)

Matthew

tom jacobson said:

That is precisely what a satisfaction (no questions asked) policy
means.

Click to expand...

A return policy might be the simple answer to the question "I bought XXX, but it turns out I made a mistake, it doesn't work the way I thought it would when I did my research, despite having exercised a reasonable level of diligence. What do I do now?"

A return policy isn't the simple answer to the "most asked question" of "which XXX should I buy?"
-harry

You are correct. I mistated the simplicity of the situation in order to create a more interesting thread. Yes, usually we have two cameras in mind and sometimes find that one or the other will suit us.

hm said:

hm said:

That is precisely what a satisfaction (no questions asked) policy
means.

Click to expand...

A return policy might be the simple answer to the question "I
bought XXX, but it turns out I made a mistake, it doesn't work the
way I thought it would when I did my research, despite having
exercised a reasonable level of diligence. What do I do now?"

A return policy isn't the simple answer to the "most asked
question" of "which XXX should I buy?"
-harry

Click to expand...

--
TJ

John Kim said:

More and more stores are specifically exempting certain high-ticket
items from their satisfaction guaranteed return policies precisely
because of people doing what you're suggesting. It is not free.
The stores (the honest ones at least) cannot simply repackage your
return and sell it as new. It gets sent back to the manufacturer

Click to expand...

I suspect you are speculating on this. It is possible that some stores would do this, but very unlikely. The item is rejected from return if it looks manhandled. They simply return the item to stock, in most cases. In the long run, the satisfaction guarantee encourages more sales, as the customers are confident in their purchases. This policy does not drive up the price, in fact, it probably lowers the price, as it makes for more sales. Believe me, Ritz, Dell, Fry's, etc, would not offer this policy if it did not make sense for them. Satisfaction guarantees make huge sense for retailers. Again, the item must be returned in "new" condition, including all packaging, etc. In fact, most people keep items they are not satisfied with, as the return process intimidates them. The retailers understand that as well. TJ