Dynamic Range Perception : Poll/Survey

ianR said:

Obvious yes, it's set up to give equivalent exposure but invalid
yes also. If it can't reflect the lights properly because they
aren't exactly lined up the same, then you can't expect them to
cast exactly the same shadow.

Click to expand...

But, they are extremely similar castings in the sections i included.

ianR said:

You mean you'll get different results if you choose different data
from the same test. In any research, they'll tell you this
invalidates the test.

Click to expand...

YEs, thoug the sections i chose have the most consistent data. That is why i mentioned the areas that did not.

ianR said:

The point about criticizing the comparison is that people take this
kind of thing seriously and base buying decisons on it. They read
here that camera X has more dynamic range because person XX did a
scientific test on it and proved it to be the case. If it's a bit
of fun then ok, but if it's to be used to draw concrete conclusions
on which people might actually spend their money, then I feel it
reasonable to state the antithetic view.

Click to expand...

But I ask what does this part of this statement have to with ANYTHING i have said or claimed?:

"They read

ianR said:

here that camera X has more dynamic range because person XX did a
scientific test on it and proved it to be the case"

Click to expand...

I have never claimed a sceintfically valid test. I did not in any way that I know of ever even imply this. I have continually specified the conditions and many of the possible variables that can invalidate any of the data i have shown. Little scientificly valid evidence exists for cameras comparisons. These are the 'most' controlled testing comparisons that are accessible to the public that 'i know of'. IMHO, it is better to have 'something' to base a decision(such as purchase) on then have nothing to base it on. So in effect your statemetn reads like you mean people would be as good off to pick a camera at random, then to rely at all on the imperfect cmoparisons/tests tht do exist for reference. But I don't think you meant that; or did you? If you have knowldege of/access to scientifically valid cmoparisons of current cameras; please refer me to them. I will cease reference to imaging-resource, dpreview tests, etc. immediately upon access to such data.

ianR said:

Is criticism not allowed?
I am trying to be objective and factual and there is nothing
personal about it I assure you.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is ecouraged by me actually. But it seemed like you were making point of issues already known; no scienfiticly valid tests exist.

ianR said:

I assume you were trying to prove something apart from monitor
perception.

Click to expand...

Well, trying to prove a typical perception to specific camera models' behaviour. I have made it clear time after time that the examples/tests are not too scientific standard. I have made this clear in every reply i have made to any issue concernng tests/comparisons i have presented, at least to bhe best of my recollection and intention. Refer to my statement on the intial post of this survey:

" Though not to sceintific standards, the images used above employ the highest level of controls that I know of from the cameras being compared that are avaialble."

What more would you be happy with me saying? I have not witheld information or attempted to decieve anyone into thinking this or any comparsion i have presented is scientfically valid.

ianR said:

No, I just disagree. I don't think the light is at all the same
there and neither is it the same on the white duster either. If
he's adjusting the light intensity to allow for the F stop or ISO
if the camera, then the amount of light on the duster is different.

Click to expand...

He specifies in his test procedure page that he uses a constant, static light source. If he adheres to this, i don't know. But the lighting is extremely similar, the closest i know of in any comparison test avaialble. Again, if you have access to sceintifically valid test, i WANT access as well.

Good day to you.

-Chris

Here is Dave Etchell's statement concerning the lighting:

"At 15.9 volts, the lamps put out an exact match to the ISO 7589 standard daylight spectral curve, giving us a precise and absolutely repeatable "daylight" to photograph under. The lamps are supported on a rectangular framework 5 feet tall by 7 feet wide, with five lamps top and bottom, and two on each side. The entire framework is positioned about two feet away from the 3 foot by 5 foot target area. This arrangement produces a uniform lighting level of EV14 (1400 lux or 130 footcandles) across the entire target area. "

I can not know if he conforms, only that he claims.

-Chris

Hi!

Left: A,B,C,D
Right: B,A,C,D

Calibrated 19" CRT

Anada

B,A,C,D

Adobe Calibrated - Mitsubishi 17" Dpro 720 Crt
--
Every silver lining has a cloud ;-(

Zenit-E - 6900/602 / Sunpak 144PC / TL-FX9

Well just counting the reflections, there are clearly at least 9 lamps at the top 9 at the bottom and 3 at the sides so at the very least the numbers of lamps he quotes are inacurate.

Plus I remember the one for the 6900 very well and it only has half as many lights on. Check this against the ones earlier.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/F6900/FULLRES/F69DBAWB.HTM

Also looking at the images from earlier, and you'll see some of the lights are brighter in some than others. They seem to go variable odd and even.

I just don't believe the lighting intensity is the same in each one whatever he says, sorry.

Similarly, in his low light test (I know this isn't relevant to your experiment but it shows his inaccuracy) sometimes the camera just doesn't allow a long enough shutter speed for the tests so the picture is almost black, but he gives the figures anyway. You might also see the same shutter speed for 2 intensities or more because that's the maximum it'll do. He doesn't explain that or allow for it. You have to examine every image and decide for yourself whether it's correctly exposed or not.

In his far field test the camera isn't always set up in the same place, and also, sometimes you can be comparing a picture at F5.6 1/15OO sec against F8 1/500.

Most of the rest of the pictures are taken of posters which are gradually deteriorating as time goes on.

The outside light portrait is taken at different times of the day in widely varying light and contrast and so is totally invalid for comparison.

Sometimes he chooses to show the WB for the picture he thinks produced the best reults so you may be comparing Auto against Daylight. Hardly fair.
They really aren't very good tests at all I'm afraid.
regards
Ian

WmAx said:

Here is Dave Etchell's statement concerning the lighting:

"At 15.9 volts, the lamps put out an exact match to the ISO 7589
standard daylight spectral curve, giving us a precise and
absolutely repeatable "daylight" to photograph under. The lamps are
supported on a rectangular framework 5 feet tall by 7 feet wide,
with five lamps top and bottom, and two on each side. The entire
framework is positioned about two feet away from the 3 foot by 5
foot target area. This arrangement produces a uniform lighting
level of EV14 (1400 lux or 130 footcandles) across the entire
target area. "

I can not know if he conforms, only that he claims.

-Chris

Click to expand...

Check this against the ones earlier.

ianR said:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/F6900/FULLRES/F69DBAWB.HTM

Click to expand...

Thank you for the reference. I did check the vesino for the cameras i show samples from; and at least tehy hve the same number of lights. I am going to attempt to contact this person and inquire about his lighting incosistencies. This is of very big concern, especially after seeing the differeent number of lights.

ianR said:

I just don't believe the lighting intensity is the same in each one
whatever he says, sorry.

Click to expand...

Maybe with good reason, but I belive it would possible the light would show a slight different instensity on teh bell considerng the type of lights that they are. These bulbs have mirrored filters behring the elements(they aer daylight simulatio lamps), and the intenesity on a very highly reflective surface would demonstrate a 'focal' effect depending on slight angle differences relative to the exposing device. ON normal diffuse surface, the difference of minor angle difference would not make 'much' difference, i beleive. BUt you still have perfectly valid doubts IMO. I will, as I said, attempt to contact him on every matter brought up here.

ianR said:

Most of the rest of the pictures are taken of posters which are
gradually deteriorating as time goes on.
The outside light portrait is taken at different times of the day
in widely varying light and contrast and so is totally invalid for
comparison.

Click to expand...

Actually, i have paid little attention to anything othe then his Dave Box test and resolution charts and shutter/focus timings.

ianR said:

Sometimes he chooses to show the WB for the picture he thinks
produced the best reults so you may be comparing Auto against
Daylight. Hardly fair.

Click to expand...

But he does provide each WB setting as an optional download at least, in teh WB matter. Another concern is his WB technique. Ideally, i belive he should use a method such as the expodisc for the most consitent results in manual WB.

ianR said:

They really aren't very good tests at all I'm afraid.

Click to expand...

He does cause a considerable level of doubt in many matters, I agree. Unfortunately, they are still the 'best' comparisons that 'I' know of at the moment. haha.

-Chris

The second one looks like it has that nasty "video" look of the Fuji S2.

Which one is the D100, and which is the 10D?

WmAx said:

I have taken 4 clips of controlled lighting static scene test
captures, thanks to imaging-resource.com. I would like for a few
people to list in order, with ratings (1) being the 'best' and (4)
being the worst, what they believe looks like preserves both
hilight AND shadow details in teh best visible balance. Each
example is identified as (A), (B), (C) and (D) at the far right of
each image. I suggest using the 'EXPAND WIDTH' java funcitno button
that this site gives you as an option over teh posted images. Feel
free to play with your monitor's contrast and brightness controls
if you can't tell enough difference to give an answer. NOTE: LCD
monitors and some 'old' crt monitors will proably not be useful for
this comparison.

I will identify A, B, C and D in a day or so after I get a few
responses. BTW, NO cheating by going to imaging-resource and trying
to find the exact matches before giving your answer. Then your
answer would be biased, now wouldn't it?

For those who might not for some reason know what I am referring
to, here is a synthetic example at two extremes to make it clear:



Now, on to the poll. These samples had only one modification made
to them from teh orginal file(s): they were all resampled to the
same physical dimensions.



Thanks in advance for your assistance.

-Chris

Though not to sceintific standards, the images used above employ
the highest level of controls that I know of from the cameras being
compared that are avaialble.

Click to expand...

B-A-C-D (Best to Worse)

Viewed under Flourecent tube on a Trinitron 100SX 14" CRT monitor.

800x600 res. un-calibrated.

--
Go the whole hog....go 4/3 SCCD 4

The results:

A 1 2 2 3 3 2 1 1 2 2 2 1 2 1 2 2 2

B 2 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 1 4 1 2 1 2 1 1 1

C 3 3 4 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3

D 4 4 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 1 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Disqualifications: A few answeres were disqualified. This applied to incorrect answer format.(only one choice, several ranking same person, etc.) I did count 'revised' rankings that corrected the incorrect format.

The cameras samples used in this survey:

A: Canon G3
B: Fuji s602
C: Canon 1Ds
D: Sony F717

Thank you for your assistance. I chose four distinct types of samples, and now i have some more insight into what people statisticaly percieve as 'dynamic range' based on the relative differences of these samples. In no way is this intended to be scientifcally valid survey; only intention was for some preliminary information.

Have a nice day.

-Chris

WmAx said:

I have taken 4 clips of controlled lighting static scene test
captures, thanks to imaging-resource.com. I would like for a few
people to list in order, with ratings (1) being the 'best' and (4)
being the worst, what they believe looks like preserves both
hilight AND shadow details in teh best visible balance. Each
example is identified as (A), (B), (C) and (D) at the far right of
each image. I suggest using the 'EXPAND WIDTH' java funcitno button
that this site gives you as an option over teh posted images. Feel
free to play with your monitor's contrast and brightness controls
if you can't tell enough difference to give an answer. NOTE: LCD
monitors and some 'old' crt monitors will proably not be useful for
this comparison.

I will identify A, B, C and D in a day or so after I get a few
responses. BTW, NO cheating by going to imaging-resource and trying
to find the exact matches before giving your answer. Then your
answer would be biased, now wouldn't it?

For those who might not for some reason know what I am referring
to, here is a synthetic example at two extremes to make it clear:



Now, on to the poll. These samples had only one modification made
to them from teh orginal file(s): they were all resampled to the
same physical dimensions.



Thanks in advance for your assistance.

-Chris

Though not to sceintific standards, the images used above employ
the highest level of controls that I know of from the cameras being
compared that are avaialble.

Click to expand...

A,B,C,D
New Samsung 191T LCD, calibrated with Samsung "Natural Color" software.
--
JohnS

17 will have to be enough valid answers. I was aiming for 20, and I did have that many counting the incorrect answer format ones that were I intended.

The results:

A 1 2 2 3 3 2 1 1 2 2 2 1 2 1 2 2 2

B 2 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 1 4 1 2 1 2 1 1 1

C 3 3 4 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3

D 4 4 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 1 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Disqualifications: A few answeres were disqualified. This applied to incorrect answer format.(only one choice, several ranking same person, etc.) I did count 'revised' rankings that corrected the incorrect format.

The cameras samples used in this survey:

A: Canon G3
B: Fuji s602
C: Canon 1Ds
D: Sony F717

Thank you for your assistance. I chose four distinct types of samples, and now i have some more insight into what people statisticaly percieve as 'dynamic range' based on the relative differences of these samples. In no way is this intended to be scientifcally valid survey; only intention was for some preliminary information.

Have a nice day.

-Chris

I counted the scores twice, but their may still be chance of an error.

-Chris

WmAx said:

17 will have to be enough valid answers. I was aiming for 20, and I
did have that many counting the incorrect answer format ones that
were I intended.

The results:

A 1 2 2 3 3 2 1 1 2 2 2 1 2 1 2 2 2

B 2 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 1 4 1 2 1 2 1 1 1

C 3 3 4 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3

D 4 4 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 1 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Disqualifications: A few answeres were disqualified. This applied
to incorrect answer format.(only one choice, several ranking same
person, etc.) I did count 'revised' rankings that corrected the
incorrect format.

The cameras samples used in this survey:

A: Canon G3
B: Fuji s602
C: Canon 1Ds
D: Sony F717

Thank you for your assistance. I chose four distinct types of
samples, and now i have some more insight into what people
statisticaly percieve as 'dynamic range' based on the relative
differences of these samples. In no way is this intended to be
scientifcally valid survey; only intention was for some preliminary
information.

Have a nice day.

-Chris

Click to expand...

WmAx said:

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

-Chris

Click to expand...

Thank YOU. Your posts have been a great help to me in getting to grips with digital as oppossed to film. I had b as best and d as worst to me quite easily but a and c were pretty close and I had a hard job deciding which to rank above the other.

Strangly enough [ or maybe not ] it was that "hard" look that made me strike the 717 off my list of possible cameras quite early when I was looking at what to get. I can get b type pics to look like d all to easily in photoshop if I'm not carefull. It's damn hard [ impossible? ] to get d to look like a tho.

WmAx said:

WmAx wrote:
I counted the scores twice, but their may still be chance of an error.

Click to expand...

Chris --

Thanks for taking this on. Though there was a bit of confusion toward the start, I am glad you ended up with enough votes to make a judgment. Interesting how it all turned out (with the 602 on top...).

best,
shudder

Hello. The results here are only useful for the relative difference between teh files, and how people are percieving them. Of the bunch, the 1Ds has the greatest latitude in reality. This is due in part to it's very low noise, as can be seen if one cared to adjust levels in photoshop.

-Chris

shudder said:

shudder said:

WmAx wrote:
I counted the scores twice, but their may still be chance of an error.

Click to expand...

Chris --

Thanks for taking this on. Though there was a bit of confusion
toward the start, I am glad you ended up with enough votes to make
a judgment. Interesting how it all turned out (with the 602 on
top...).

best,
shudder

Click to expand...

Thank you for the time you spent,got me to calibrate..Old age!!

Maybe you would like to do another test ;-]...ie Dynamic Range per Dollar?

WmAx said:

-Chris

shudder said:

WmAx said:

WmAx wrote:
I counted the scores twice, but their may still be chance of an error.

Click to expand...

Chris --

Thanks for taking this on. Though there was a bit of confusion
toward the start, I am glad you ended up with enough votes to make
a judgment. Interesting how it all turned out (with the 602 on
top...).

best,
shudder

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thank you chris

deciding between 1 and 2 is difficult without having a very good original photo for reference because none of them can take all the details

regards

WmAx said:

17 will have to be enough valid answers. I was aiming for 20, and I
did have that many counting the incorrect answer format ones that
were I intended.

The results:

A 1 2 2 3 3 2 1 1 2 2 2 1 2 1 2 2 2

B 2 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 1 4 1 2 1 2 1 1 1

C 3 3 4 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3

D 4 4 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 1 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Disqualifications: A few answeres were disqualified. This applied
to incorrect answer format.(only one choice, several ranking same
person, etc.) I did count 'revised' rankings that corrected the
incorrect format.

The cameras samples used in this survey:

A: Canon G3
B: Fuji s602
C: Canon 1Ds
D: Sony F717

Thank you for your assistance. I chose four distinct types of
samples, and now i have some more insight into what people
statisticaly percieve as 'dynamic range' based on the relative
differences of these samples. In no way is this intended to be
scientifcally valid survey; only intention was for some preliminary
information.

Have a nice day.

-Chris

Click to expand...

--
-harry-

So, how do you explain the 1Ds not getting the most votes? I thought that the large CCDs in digital SLRs have superior dynamic range.