An interesting conversation.

I admit that a few times I am disappointed that a photo did not do as well, but I USE PhotoSig to let me know the impact of a photo and subject. This helps me separate "art" from "stock"...I plan to have my "Stock" support my "art"... :)

When I post a photo and it gets immediate response and even if the total is only 40-50 that tells me the photo has "something" that people are attracted to....one reason I do not join the Elite group there.

I am designing a similar system on EquipU!, but you won't easily know who posted it. One can still email their 1,000 friends, but that would at least be a violation.

--
RichO :)
San Antonio, TX
http://www.equipu.com
http://www.pbase.com/richo/
'Life is a dance, Love is the music.'
 
you can submit a pic of a rusty Beer
barrel and get 100 thumbs,
Hey, I remember that photo. Shot by a guy with a Sony F707, and altered in PS taking the background out of focus. I have noticed that the Sony fans go out of their way to rate other Sony pix on that site. Wonder why?

Oh, well... such a terrible disaster about the Photosig "upgrade." It broke my heart... not! :)

--
BryanS
 
Went to your page to have a look. The shape of the walls, the
contrast with the underview, the colors and the white space,
incredible image!
All the best. Tim Joyce
Thanks. I was trying to be visually playful with this capture. Always glad to read that this concept worked for another.

It's a type of visual playfulness that I don't often get a chance to record as opposed to a straight style of photography which presents itself on a daily basis:-)
 
I have posted images on PhotoSig and since I will never be a member
of Club Elite, I rarely get more than 20-40 points.

People will leave comments wondering why one of images is not at
the top...but that is usually because:
1. Not a member of Club Elite
2. Subject matter - flowers, scenes, moon, sunsets and no nudes
Agree with you. But I would add.

There are people who take photos of their cats, dogs, flowers,... and the way they took their photos is a very entry level photography.

But some of these people give the worst vote possible to a very artistic nude photo just because it's a nude photo and they don't like any other photos except cats, dogs, flowers,...

For example you have a photo with tens of good votes, but there come someone ang gives you a bad mark just because of the reason mentioned earlier.

I think photosig is very good organized, because their poll system includes rating for the people who comment the photos and makes votes. In this case someone who makes unusual votes, can get bad rating and his votes are not as valuable as votes from another person.
 
Is there any such thing as a not valid image? If I put the lens
cap on and hit the shutter, is what I get a "valid" image? To
whom, and for what? Someone might be interested in standard
deviations at different ISO speeds ... and someone else might be
interested in some kind of "artistic statement" I might be making...
I was discussing this with some of my friends, after a discussion of some unbearably boring book we had read in our English class had all sorts of 'deep meanings' that most of us agreed were not intended by the author.

I think anything can be considered art, even if it's sometimes only by the really loony people. I don't remember the specifics, but wasn't there a guy who drew a 3D box or something, and people thought it was profound, symbolizing his trapped feeling, and he started receiving praise for it. He finally had to tell people that it was actually just him drawing a box, and wasn't anything meaninful. People seem to find deep meaning in art when it's actually not intended to be there.

So as you said, even a photo with the lenscap on could be well-received, at least by a few. It symbolizes loneliness and depression, and the few stuck pixels you might have are symbolic of the beginning from the emergence from the dark. Granted, I don't think too many sane people would say this, but you get the idea.
 
I've had pictures dismissed by camera club judges that have won me
medals in national and international exhibitions.
What I'm finding interesting about this thread and the comments made by you and others is the universiality of the conversation. It seems that this experience has been had by many if not all. This fact, begs the question of "What's a valid image?" as opposed to "What makes for a valid judge?"

To have a local panel trash an image and then have the same image go on to national and international acclaim says, to me, the local panel of judges are an invalid source of judgement. To have a local panel say good things and a larger venue trash an image would be reasonable as it's obviously a larger group of works to be judged against. But to have the reverse is to invalidate the panel doing the judging.

You can't have both, one going backwards and yet have both say they're valid.
My two observations are:

1) Some camera club judges only see/produce camera club type work
and may not appreciate photo art that might do well on the
international circuit.
Which to me says they're not qualified to sit a panel.
2) Don't despair at what judges say.
No despair as this was an observation based upon the customer's comments of experiencing similar behavior or treatment. So the natural conclusion was to explore this phenomenon a bit further by posting the thought here on this international sounding board to see what others thought and hopefully see if they'd had a similar experience as well. Net result, many if not all have experienced this exact same social phenomenon.

"Very interestink!"
Create the photos YOU like -
it's YOUR hobby, YOUR recreation and YOUR pleasure. If you are a
creative individual then I am sure others will appreciate your
creativity even if they aren't camera club judges.
As I create I allow social ideologies to guide my thinking. My art is a reflection of the world around me. It's sort of a keeping up with the Jones's sort of thing. A little is good, a lot is bad. I think Maplethorp is a jerk for some of the controversial photographs but was that all he was about? There's no way on God's green earth would I go in that offensive of a direction. Maybe as a conservative, in a liberal world, San Francisco Bay Area, I should take the liberal world on. Hey! An idea:-) But! Does my disgust of some of his work, invalidate his other other beautiful non offensive works?

http://www.artprintcollection.com/mapplethorpe_robert_1.html

The point, by allowing social conscienceness to creep into my photography, it forces me to push my envelope as opposed to allowing myself to sit on my laurels and not improve in technique and quality.

Not being independently wealthy, I have to push my imagery, one baby step at a time when the time presents itself. Yesterday I was busy fixing a messed up HDD and missed a chance that I had been waiting a couple of weeks for.

Shameful that we're only allowed one lifetime:-)
 
So as you said, even a photo with the lenscap on could be
well-received, at least by a few. It symbolizes loneliness and
depression, and the few stuck pixels you might have are symbolic of
the beginning from the emergence from the dark.
Wow! That's so profound. How much did you say you wanted for this image:-)
 
But some of these people give the worst vote possible to a very
artistic nude photo just because it's a nude photo and they don't
like any other photos except cats, dogs, flowers,...
Here's a shot I posted that got exactly the sort of scores that you speak of.

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1337249

The shots not the best shot in the world but it's an interesting shot that one would hang in their hallway.

Images of a cat on a kitchen floor get better scores then this shot. The posted image above is not my best shot, by a long shot but it's a heck of a lot better then "Here's a shot of kitty at feeding time." I went through photo.net's current images and found as example of a dog shot, in a living room setting that received overall better average scores then the above shot.

Here's a shot of a dog sucking some toes.

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1430005

This shot got near perfect scores of 6.0 out of a possible 7.0. And I'm suppose to believe those that rated this image are valid judges?
For example you have a photo with tens of good votes, but there
come someone ang gives you a bad mark just because of the reason
mentioned earlier.
I had one poster haunt my online portfolios and now I'm stuck with his vindictive scores. He even came back and rated some images a second time with the same score. Here's an example of his handiwork. Thank-you Nicholas Russo:-(

http://www.photo.net/photodb/ratings_breakdown?photo_id=1081976
I think photosig is very good organized, because their poll system
includes rating for the people who comment the photos and makes
votes. In this case someone who makes unusual votes, can get bad
rating and his votes are not as valuable as votes from another
person.
It's nice to see that there's a control system in place to put some controls on the judges.
 
A) I really don't care if I get deleted from Photosig at this point since I do not exactly like what I see since the upgrade .

B) You take this stuff too seriously. There was a touch of sarcasm in my note. If you think that I'm going to waste my time and write a stupid little app to do this, you're dead wrong. I have far better things to do with my time.
If I wanted to, I bet I could create a porogram to automatically do
this to ever new photo on Photosig and have it run in the
background very 5 minutes. Would be kind of fun to see what
happened.
 
Create the photos YOU like -
it's YOUR hobby, YOUR recreation and YOUR pleasure. If you are a
creative individual then I am sure others will appreciate your
creativity even if they aren't camera club judges.
When my kids were little, my mother asked them if they wanted vanilla or chocolate icecream. My daughter wanted chocolate, my son vanilla. My mother said to my son, Why do you want vanilla? Chocolate is better!"

I spent a lifetime trying to get her to see the difference between personal preferences and set-in-stone pronouncements. But, like you and many of the others here, as strong as our preferences may be, we can admit that they are just preferences.

I really despise those tyrannical judges of art, especially at the academic level, who feel that they have the real poop on what is or isn't art. (Actually, what they do have is an awful lot like real poop!)

--
Walter K
 
To have a local panel trash an image and then have the same image
go on to national and international acclaim says, to me, the local
panel of judges are an invalid source of judgement. .......
You can't have both, one going backwards and yet have both say
they're valid.
But they are, given their backgrounds, different viewpoints, the intended use, and the criteria used to judge that use.

Is a photo "good" for a photo club exhibition? Maybe not. Is it "good" for a gallery? Maybe yes. Is it a good news photo? No. Was it good for you? Yes.

Heck, even in the Olympics, where you have very strict, rigid guidlines for judging a specific event, one judge will say 9.2, and another will say 10. Who was "right" and who was "wrong"?
 
Here's a definition of reality I use in teaching social
constructionism (the worldview that reality is a social
construction). Certainly, photography judging is socially
constructed, and it depends upon the social group whether something
is "valid".

-Reality-
Reality is what we take to be true.
What we take to be true is what we believe.
What we believe is based upon our perceptions.
What we perceive depends upon what we look for.
What we look for depends upon what we think.
What we think depends upon what we perceive.
What we perceive determines what we believe.
What we believe determines what we take to be true.
What we take to be true is our reality.
– Zukav, 1979
Next time you meet somebody who tell you such nonsense, wether they believe you are real or not, punch them in the nose they will know.

reality is reality, what we THINK it is depend on a lot of thing. The first and last phrase in the quotation are totaly wrong. They go in the same file as Shroedinger's cat.

--
Gaetan J.
 
Recent studies have shown that beauty is not in the eye of the beholder. It's mesurable and universal (at least for earthly things). Taste is personal.

--
Gaetan J.
 
So as you said, even a photo with the lenscap on could be
well-received, at least by a few. It symbolizes loneliness and
depression, and the few stuck pixels you might have are symbolic of
the beginning from the emergence from the dark.
Wow! That's so profound. How much did you say you wanted for this
image:-)
Well, I would normally ask something like $15 for an 8x10 ... but for such a profound, fine-art image as this, I can't see less than $950.

Besides, your mathmatician friends will drool over the standard deviations of blackness -- aren't the universe and classical music and things like that built on math?
 
So as you said, even a photo with the lenscap on could be
well-received, at least by a few. It symbolizes loneliness and
depression, and the few stuck pixels you might have are symbolic of
the beginning from the emergence from the dark.
Wow! That's so profound. How much did you say you wanted for this
image:-)
Well, I would normally ask something like $15 for an 8x10 ... but
for such a profound, fine-art image as this, I can't see less than
$950.
I'm sorry, I couldn't do it? Why? My buddies would think that I had no taste because I spent so little:-)
 
WalterK wrote:
..........
I really despise those tyrannical judges of art, especially at the
academic level, who feel that they have the real poop on what is or
isn't art. (Actually, what they do have is an awful lot like real
poop!)

--
Walter K
Hi Walter,

That's actually very similar to my own observations - and one that is validated daily by astute observers.

After spending many years teaching in University classrooms, I decided that preservation of "tradition" and the reputations of prestigious faculty members are far more likely to drive curriculum than a search for truth and validity.

It’s a shame that our ivory towers have become bastions of perfidy, but in many cases that’s exactly what has happened. One wonders why this has become so. I suppose there has always been an iterative process of refining knowledge, sort of a Hegelian thesis, antithesis, synthesis process, and that it takes many years to sort through the issues and arrive at consensus . This seems to work much better for the quantitative sciences than for more esoteric subjects like art, but the arrogance of some of our “experts” and “authorities” in these venues defy logic.

To me, art is an outward manifestation or expression of a mental state; an attempt to convey to others what the individual sees or feels inwardly. It can take many forms, and trying to define an abstract concept in concrete terms is usually an exercise in futility. As has been said, one either appreciates it or not – but failing to appreciated it by one certainly doesn’t “invalidate” it for all.

Lin
--
http://208.56.82.71
 

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