Reading mode: Light Dark

An interesting conversation.

Go to last post
Larry H. Smith said:
I concur, ...this type of "record" shot involves no creative effort
to capture/present any sort of "interpretation" or unique vision,
...it is analogous to pressing the "record" button on an (audio)
tape recorder. You have the microphone, the tape, and the sound,
...minimal "artistic" input from the button-pusher. "Valid" only as
a record of the subject matter, with the quality of the recording
being almost entirely left to the equipment.
Click to expand...
And that explains Yoko Ono's recordings:-)
 
This is true to all modern art. I think it was so before, but the audience was much more limited in size and scope.

As you said, it's in the eye of the beholder. But does that mean it's all that counts? If the mass appeal, the approval from the mass, and the money are important, maybe so. The creators need to think about who's going to appreciate their works.

But the creation is for (mostly) your own sake, for expressing your view of things, then it really doesn't matter what others think. If people like your creation, that's good. If not, well, you can always say the world is not ready for you.

This got a bit more apparent in the development of abstract arts. Often times, what the creators intended and what the audience saw were totally different. Before it was much easier to agree on the commonality of the two parties, reflected on the work.

This discrepancy, I think, is perfectly fine. In recent years, the artistic expression has been going toward the individual's inner world, and that must be as diverse as the individual herself.

Of course, one can talk about techniques and rules. But those are just a guidance that tells you what would work for most people, most of the times (that is, what's still largely shared among our psyches). I don't think one shouldn't be too much concerned with it if the self expression is the most important criteria.

Hong.
 
This is exactedly why I no longer consider Psig a good place to recieve valid feedback on photo's...some people try while the 'elites' ruin it for everyone else...
RichO said:
I have posted images on PhotoSig and since I will never be a member
of Club Elite, I rarely get more than 20-40 points.

People will leave comments wondering why one of images is not at
the top...but that is usually because:
1. Not a member of Club Elite
2. Subject matter - flowers, scenes, moon, sunsets and no nudes

--
RichO :)
San Antonio, TX
http://www.equipu.com
http://www.pbase.com/richo/
'Life is a dance, Love is the music.'
Click to expand...
--

If a man is alone in the forest arguing his point of view and there are no women around, is he still wrong?
 
I submitted a photo for the Canon Master's contest that they had several years ago and got very low ratings for it (compared to all the others I submitted anyway). Someone at Ilford saw the same image and wanted a large print of it for their headquarters building. He said he'd shown it to everyone in his office and they all loved it.

Who was right?

Well, neither was really wrong. Canon's judges downrated it because the colors weren't vibrant. I didn't want the colors vibrant. Apparently Ilford's people liked it my way. It's a matter of taste.
 
Thomas Gardner said:
Did you by chance get a poignant moment shot of your instructor as
the guest lecture made his pronouncement? :-)
Click to expand...
I didn't have camera with me, but his expression is etched in my memory ;-).

I got to the point that I knew so many "rules" of photography that I'd take my camera out on a photo expedition and come back without making a single exposure! I have to credit digital photography and the lowly Canon G2 with loosening up my shutter button finger. Funny thing is, my film cameras have been put to much more use recently.

I don't enter photo contests and I don't race my Hobie sailboat. Too much of the rest of my life is competitive. It's nice to do something just for the fun of it.

Doug
 
Here's a definition of reality I use in teaching social constructionism (the worldview that reality is a social construction). Certainly, photography judging is socially constructed, and it depends upon the social group whether something is "valid".

-Reality-
Reality is what we take to be true.
What we take to be true is what we believe.
What we believe is based upon our perceptions.
What we perceive depends upon what we look for.
What we look for depends upon what we think.
What we think depends upon what we perceive.
What we perceive determines what we believe.
What we believe determines what we take to be true.
What we take to be true is our reality.
– Zukav, 1979
 
Kevin Lyness said:
-Reality-
Reality is what we take to be true.
What we take to be true is what we believe.
What we believe is based upon our perceptions.
What we perceive depends upon what we look for.
What we look for depends upon what we think.
What we think depends upon what we perceive.
What we perceive determines what we believe.
What we believe determines what we take to be true.
What we take to be true is our reality.
– Zukav, 1979
Click to expand...
Ever known a person with schizorphenia...?
 
When Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" was first performed, people ran out of the theatre screaming. I seem to remember that Beethoven Symphonies number 5 and 6 were not that well received on first play. Go figure :-)

Duncan (I love Rite of Spring and Beethoven #5, though I can miss #6 without worrying. Give me #7 and #9 any day!!)
 
Doug MacMillan said:
Thomas Gardner said:
Did you by chance get a poignant moment shot of your instructor as
the guest lecture made his pronouncement? :-)
Click to expand...
I didn't have camera with me, but his expression is etched in my
memory ;-).
Click to expand...
I love it.

aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As the saying goes, "He who laughs last, laughs the best of all." :-)
Doug MacMillan said:
I got to the point that I knew so many "rules" of photography that
I'd take my camera out on a photo expedition and come back without
making a single exposure!
Click to expand...
Does have a way of making one a touch paranoid:-)
Doug MacMillan said:
I have to credit digital photography and
the lowly Canon G2 with loosening up my shutter button finger.
Funny thing is, my film cameras have been put to much more use
recently.
Click to expand...
I'm so spoiled by digital that I can't conceive of buying even a single roll of 36exp. Everytime I give it a thought. Like; all I want to do is grab a roll of slide film. My brain starts to yell real loud after thinking the full process through..... "What are you???!!!! Nuts!!!!" And then my body falls in line with my brain's thinking as it starts to get all sick in the stomach thinking about all the trips to the store for processing and did I include a gray card in the image for color correcting. Once the slide is inhand there's, cropping, 4"X5" internegs and finally, the 11"X14" print.

My body shutters at all the mental effort and monetary expenditure with the hopes of printing one decent image, let alone three, four or five:-) So I figure, if that's my brain/body reaction to what my subconscience is trying to tell me..... then I don't like film anymore:-)
Doug MacMillan said:
I don't enter photo contests and I don't race my Hobie sailboat.
Too much of the rest of my life is competitive. It's nice to do
something just for the fun of it.
Click to expand...
It sure is nice to see everybody else racing about on the water and you don't even have to worry about tacking. Don't worry, we'll be tacking in about an hour:-)
 
Hong Cho said:
Of course, one can talk about techniques and rules. But those are
just a guidance that tells you what would work for most people,
most of the times (that is, what's still largely shared among our
psyches).
Click to expand...
Aaaaaah, the sociability of the art work. "Veeeeeery Interestink."
Hong Cho said:
I don't think one shouldn't be too much concerned with
it if the self expression is the most important criteria.
Click to expand...
So is your audience an audience of one or many?

Very insightful:-)

This is a shot that I made for myself.

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1161904

And here's one I made for the masses:-)

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1324450
 
Newk said:
I submitted a photo for the Canon Master's contest that they had
several years ago and got very low ratings for it (compared to all
the others I submitted anyway). Someone at Ilford saw the same
image and wanted a large print of it for their headquarters
building. He said he'd shown it to everyone in his office and they
all loved it.

Who was right?
Click to expand...
Well, obviously the ones who liked it was right:-) Those that didn't, well let's just say they don't count:-)
 
Duncan Budd said:
When Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" was first performed, people ran
out of the theatre screaming. I seem to remember that Beethoven
Symphonies number 5 and 6 were not that well received on first
play. Go figure :-)
Click to expand...
I wonder what Stravinsky would think of "Big Bad Voodoo Daddy" and their collective work? I could imagine putting "Brian Setzer's Orchastra", or even the "Jive Aces" up on stage in Stravinsky's time:-) Listening to "Eric Clapton Unplugged"

All after his time, all valid. And would he have liked listening to BB doing the blues? :-)

Photography is my music. Why? Because I'm a no talent musician:-) But as photographers, we're still entertainers.
 
This is from the sony board, but it is a thread i started earlier this morning. It deals with the same subject matter:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=4893763

Cheers.
Thomas Gardner said:
While out saving the world from insect invasions, I get the
pleasure of being able to sit at the kitchen table with my
customers. Just as I'm chatty here, I'm chatty there also:-) We
can all act surprised:-)

With that in mind, the conversation of photography came up; more
surprised faces:-) The customer and husband were both into
photography and been members of a San Jose camera club.

She commented about how she had submitted an image to the camera
clubs three judged at the monthly meeting and the short of the very
pleasant story, they ripped her image.

She took the same image and submitted it to a multi-state contest
and took best in show. Same image...... totally different results.

Now the point of this posting has to do with perception of an image
and your experiences with other people's reactions to your images
and what "really" is an excellent image!

Example for though; Duchamp's and "Nude Decending a Staircase".
This was clearly an avante garde image that introduced three
dimentional thinking into a two dimensional world of painterly art
that added the dynamics of movement to the image. By the
traditional thinking of the Photo-Realists of the time and the
Pointalists of the time this was some wacked out stuff.

http://www.beatmuseum.org/duchamp/nude2.html

Valid or invalid?

I posted an image here and it was shredded by the animals that live
in the zoo, but on photo.net it was well received and based on the
comments, some even enjoyed the photographic humor.

(Image/comment were posted as nothing more then a personal example.)

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1256675

What came out of the conversation this morning is that the
acceptance of an image is very dependent on the individual that's
looking at the image.

I went to a customer's art show and thought her images of "Women in
the Bible", done in acrylic were wonderful interpretations but
others I know, didn't like this sort of art. Does that make the
artist invalid because someone didn't like the images. Does it
make an artist valid because others do like the image?

Hence the question to be pondered by all the intellectuals and
non-intellectuals that poke around among these posts on this
forum.....

What constitues a valid image?

Is an image not valid if it doesn't get approved of by a panel of
camera club critics? Is a critique only valid if it's a tri-state
competition and the image gets at least an honorable mention? Are
all the other submitted images invalid that don't get so much as an
honorable mention? Is an image invalid if it doesn't pass muster
on dpreview.com but passes muster on photo.net?

What makes a valid image? Is it valid, only if it follows some
rule of composition? Is it valid only if the image has no
distractions in it, such as a piece of trash. How about, is it
valid only if the image has no negative space. What makes the
image valid, what constitues an invalid image.

Is it like the definition of porn? "I don't know how to define it
but I sure know it when I see it."

I hope you don't find the rambling to distracting as I wanted to
post the point of the conversation and get your indepth reaction to
the questions above as this ties into photography and what it is
your doing and validity of what it is you're currently doing today.
Click to expand...
--
My gallery! Worth a look!

http://calgary-steven.deviantart.com
 
I am very interested in the subject myself (recently I began a thread "The Difference Between Good and Great") and manh of the responses were similar to those in this thread.

A physics prof I said a long time ago, when discussing the interpretation of quantum mechanics, concluded by saying, "Truth is what makes money. If the engineers can use your theory to make something useful, then your theory is correct."

Let me explain this a bit before it gets torn to threads! : ) Quantum mechanics has had great physicists searching for a "reasonable" interpretation since its inception. Einstein himself went to his grave trying to debunk (unsuccessfully)the theory he helped formulate. Yet, it reamins the single most successful physical theory of all time.

We could apply this to art. If an artwork (such as a photograph) is commercially viable, it would be considered "worthwhile" I would think. The longer it sells, the more "worthwhile" it is. Of course, this is a very simplistic viewpoint that has many quantifiers, but there seems to be an element of truth to this.

Turning from physics to performing, we could site Star Search. Many Star Search "winners" never "made it" while many "losers" did "make it". The contest seemed mainly to get the contenders into a public forum where more hard work allowed them to achieve greater success.

The same is true with photography, i would think. Winning a photo contest gives great exposure, but of more "value" is the consistent presence in photo contests, or galleries, or whatever. Eventually, a person's collected works may receive a recognition that sheds a "new revelation" of previously overlooked photogaphs' "brilliance". : )

Anyway, just shooting off an idea. I'm still wrestling with the whole thing myself, but, as photography is not my "day job", I'm not sure why it matters so much to me! : )

--joe

--
Visit my rock store at http://www.saimport.com !
Happy G3 owner!

: )
 
............. I love this imagery, as newbies and professionals throw their offerings to be ripped apart and dissected limb from limb by the “animals in the zoo” – brilliant.

Just a well that the “animals in the zoo” are not signing our cheques, lest we all stare to death!!!!
............................................... ;^)

--
Eos** means New Dawn, let the show begin ....
 
The interpetation of most photos depends greatly upon your point-of-view. A friend of mine will take a picture and be very happy with it. When I look at it I see the telephone poles and lack of framing and static postioning and so on... but that's the artistic POV.

The commercial POV might be it's suitability for sale or stock.

But what of her POV? She looks at it and sees the memory, the circumstances surrounding the photo.

A historian may only see the building in the photo and it's history. A botanist may be looking at the trees.

Which viewpoint is valid?

Oddly enough, they all are. Agree on a context, however, and then we have a basis for dicussion.
 
I'm sure you could, it's been done to death. Every time they kill one bot another pops up. No need to see what happens, I'll tell you. The bot gets spotted usually in a few hours if not a couple of days, in the mean time racks up a bunch of points and then the account gets deleted. Oh yeah, what fun.
Scott Olds said:
If I wanted to, I bet I could create a porogram to automatically do
this to ever new photo on Photosig and have it run in the
background very 5 minutes. Would be kind of fun to see what
happened.
Click to expand...
 
Art is a matter of intent! To the degree that you are able to get your intent, acrosss to the viewer, you are successful. If an author writes a book and everyone that reads it gets a different interpretation; he/she is probably not a very good writer. It is the same with art and photography! That is what typically defines a master. It's the the ability to bring nearly everyone to a common experience. What we are seeing (definately in the USA) is a "dumbing down" of art interpretation, brought on by a misunderstanding of what the pop-art movement was all about. Everything became art, and everyone became an artist.

If an artist takes a picture of a can on the side of the road. It might be some comment on the human condition. When everyone sees that image, and runs to take pictures of cans on the side of the road. Then the can becomes garbage!
Mark Hayes
 
I've had pictures dismissed by camera club judges that have won me medals in national and international exhibitions.

My two observations are:

1) Some camera club judges only see/produce camera club type work and may not appreciate photo art that might do well on the international circuit.

2) Don't despair at what judges say. Create the photos YOU like - it's YOUR hobby, YOUR recreation and YOUR pleasure. If you are a creative individual then I am sure others will appreciate your creativity even if they aren't camera club judges.

David
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top