Why is Phil stealing my time?

Hopefully it's possible to design the website such that TEXT in the messages loads first, THEN any embedded images, and THEN advertising.

I agree that sometimes the loading of pages slows down, seemingly waiting on advertising banners before anything else will display.

Phil Askey said:

I think it's banners coming from other servers... Unfortunately on
a free site like this we have to have advertising... I'll mention
it to our ad brokers.

Click to expand...

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

I think you nailed it. The problem is intermittent. I saw it yesterday also (sitting on dual Sprint T1's) but it's fine today. But the real clue to the banner thing is that typically the nav panel comes right in then you wait 15 to 30 seconds for the banner and the rest of the page.

• DL

Phil Askey said:

I think it's banners coming from other servers... Unfortunately on
a free site like this we have to have advertising... I'll mention
it to our ad brokers.

Click to expand...

I've also noticed the slowness of the forums. I use Opera (which is very quick and compares well to other browsers feature-wise) on a decent spec computer and internet connection. The slow speed of the updates means that I end up having several forum threads open in different windows, so I can click 'Next' on each page as I read it and switch to a different window to read another thread while I wait for the next reply to appear. Displaying the updated page also takes alot of CPU time which I usually notice as audible clicks/pauses in WinAmp playback.

I've often thought the problem is in the navigator section of the page. There are usually a large number of replies listed, which I assume are the result of a database query. If this is being generated for each click on 'Next', then it probably creates a large load on the database and creates a large amount of HTML which is downloaded for every page. This is probably where all the time is spent to generate and display each page.

However, the list of replies doesn't change very often (being in Australia means that most of the discussion has already happened during the night), so this re-querying of the database and download/display of the navigator is largely wasted (especially when the only comment is in the subject line and there is nothing edited in the message body).

I think the navigator should be in a separate frame from the comment. Clicking the navigator only updates the comment. The navigator itself doesn't need to be refreshed every time (although it does need some refreshing to display new replies, so perhaps this could be on a refresh timer or explicit refresh button). By minimising the amount of database queries and the amount of HTML that needs to be transmitted and rendered in the browser, we get the maximum performance for everyone. Overall, I think this scheme would save alot time and bandwidth, while still being very functional and not too different from the current style. Of course, there could be other objections to using frames, but in this case, I think it's quite a good use for them.

Keong

Yes, clearly that would be preferable and I hope that the forum software will allow that in the future. The site content is fabulous since it's comprised of like-minded and fairly generous individuals. Nevertheless it could benefit from some enhancements. A few come to mind-batch reading of a thread, FAQ areas, Forume member review areas for equipment e.g comments on the 100mm macro, etc... This sort of organization would reduce the messages, calm down the experts, and make a more efficient experience. -Bruce

TangoMan said:

Jason B1 said:

Or wait 20 years and come back, maybe the website will be faster
then.

Click to expand...

No need to wait 20 years. Back in 1600's they figured out it was
better to use the then new technology (manually squeezed press
printers) in such a way as to allow the reader to read every
sentence one after another on the same page, rather than having to
flip pages after each sentence.

TangoMan said:

I don't mind putting in my two cent and coming back later.
Sometimes I read and post all over and check back in cycles.
Sometimes I watch TV, check on the kids, or do some work, and then
come back to the forum.

Click to expand...

You don't get it, I only ask to present the text in a efficient
way: let us see all of the thread at a glance .

--
The best propaganda is not obvious to its people. But, try as it
can, it can't fool the foreigners. And the propaganded will soon
call the foreigners anti- for simply asking them to think
about their automatic thoughts.

Click to expand...

TangoMan said:

However, why do I have to wait 1 to 15 sec (and sometimes longer)
just to get from one reply to the next? I must be loosing about
50% of my forum time, just waiting for the text to appear before
my eyes.

Click to expand...

I agree. However, its not just this web forum. Its all web forums. They are slow and not nearly as responsive as a typical newreader. I've yet to come across a web-based forum that could be called "fast". It seems every site out on the net these days feels the need to re-invent the wheel, unfortunately, the wheels are all square. Newsgroups/mailing lists are a much more effective solutions for these types of discussions. Its just in dpreview's best interest to keep the userbase on their site for advertising purposes. This has the side effect of diluting the community.

-Pete (who misses the day all subject matter experts used USENET and I could use deja to find the answer to anything)

Bruce Gordon said:

Nevertheless it could benefit from some enhancements.
A few come to mind-batch reading of a thread, FAQ areas, Forume
member review areas for equipment e.g comments on the 100mm macro,
etc... This sort of organization would reduce the messages, calm
down the experts, and make a more efficient experience. -Bruce

Click to expand...

Great ideas. This way, you can post your opinion once on a lens or flash or whatever piece of gear and everyone can access everyone's opinion on the gear they own. We've seen similar sites elsewhere, but you just couldn't find everything because of the lesser traffic. On dpreview, I'm confident we would have 100% coverage of lenses (by DavidP alone) and of other canon, and third party equipment.

--

The best propaganda is not obvious to its people. But, try as it can, it can't fool the foreigners. And the propaganded will soon call the foreigners anti- for simply asking them to think about their automatic thoughts.

keong said:

I think the navigator should be in a separate frame from the
comment. Clicking the navigator only updates the comment.

Click to expand...

Another great suggestion. This site screams for frames.

--

The best propaganda is not obvious to its people. But, try as it can, it can't fool the foreigners. And the propaganded will soon call the foreigners anti- for simply asking them to think about their automatic thoughts.

Pete Kazmier said:

Its just in dpreview's
best interest to keep the userbase on their site for advertising
purposes.

Click to expand...

Are advertisers dumb enough not to analyse the numbers they see before they fork out their cash?

--

The best propaganda is not obvious to its people. But, try as it can, it can't fool the foreigners. And the propaganded will soon call the foreigners anti- for simply asking them to think about their automatic thoughts.

And I run a cable modem. I try to do most of my reading and or posting in the very early morning like 6-7 est as by mid morning or afternoon the wait can be terrible.
John R.

Phil,

Some time ago you had mentioned that the source should show how long a page takes to load. FYI, here is an example of what I saw just a couple of minutes ago when I clicked on a message.

& Graphics are all (c)1998-2002 Phil Askey
Site Developed by Phil Askey -->

Olga

This board is elegant to look at, and has great content.
But, it is the worst BBS that I frequent in terms of actual use.

One of the best is a motorcycle BBS that has the headers in a column on the left, including all the "sub-posts" (if you will) and then a separate pane on the right with the text of any one post that you're looking at.

MUCH easier to follow threads without constant drilling down to do it.

I very much appreciate having the "content" of this board, but it is a dinosaur in terms of functionality.

Another Incredibly useful thing would be for the browser to preload 3 replies down the list that you are currently reading. This way, when you hit next, the next reply appears instantly and you can read while the browser is fetching the new third reply.

WHAT A TIME SAVER !!!!!!

What do you all think? Can we have it?

--

The best propaganda is not obvious to its people. But, try as it can, it can't fool the foreigners. And the propaganded will soon call the foreigners anti- for simply asking them to think about their automatic thoughts.

Just 2 comments (maybe 3) on this thread...and I almost hesitate to say anything.

1. 1. ASP sux, period. These forums use ASP (and yes I know what I'm talking about).

1. 2 I chose vbulletin for http://www.dphotoforum.com it i hands down the best forum software on the market. I run lots and lots and lots of forums ranging from totally custom written software to vbulletin and all the ones in between including phpbb, ipb, etc etc...

1. 3 I think the forums here serve their purpose just fine (just my opinion).

EddyG said:

EddyG said:

It's unrelated to photography but the format of the BB is great.
...
All the replies are just listed from the beginning and there's an
option to click on 'read new' for each topic.

Click to expand...

It's called vBulletin ( http://www.vbulletin.com/ ) and there are
many free alternatives that are just as good if not better, such as
phpBB ( http://www.phpbb.com/ ). And I agree, forum software that
follows that "model" is much more intuitive and nicer to use. Plus
you can do stuff like mark-up your posts with bold, italic, etc.,
set user preferences, send private messages, etc.

You'll never see anything like it on dpreview though, unfortunately.

Click to expand...

--
Digital Photography Forum
http://www.dphotoforum.com

You haven't seen very many forums have you?

I know many that are "screaming" fast. I have seen forums with loads you wouldn't hardly believe and they just kept on serving away. I am talking loads many many many times over what this site sees.

I am sure you are aware there are many factors that affect your apparent speed as well.

Pete Kazmier said:

TangoMan said:

However, why do I have to wait 1 to 15 sec (and sometimes longer)
just to get from one reply to the next? I must be loosing about
50% of my forum time, just waiting for the text to appear before
my eyes.

Click to expand...

I agree. However, its not just this web forum. Its all web
forums. They are slow and not nearly as responsive as a typical
newreader. I've yet to come across a web-based forum that could be
called "fast". It seems every site out on the net these days feels
the need to re-invent the wheel, unfortunately, the wheels are all
square. Newsgroups/mailing lists are a much more effective
solutions for these types of discussions. Its just in dpreview's
best interest to keep the userbase on their site for advertising
purposes. This has the side effect of diluting the community.

-Pete (who misses the day all subject matter experts used USENET
and I could use deja to find the answer to anything)

Click to expand...

--
Digital Photography Forum
http://www.dphotoforum.com