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tungsten lighting - shutter speed too low

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hwwong

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I built a home studio with two 1000w tungsten lights and several muslins with different colors. I made two panels with nylon to soften the light by putting them in front of the tungstens but found that the light is cut off too much when passing through the panels. The fastest shutter I can use for a well-exposed portrait is around 1/30s. As my subjects are mainly babies and young kids, it is critical to get a fast shutter speed to freeze their motion as they don't tend to stand still for you to shoot.

Does a softbox help in this situation? I think the softbox can concentrate the light towards one direction while the panel I made reflects light back and hence lose part of the light. Any suggestion to improve? Thanks in advance.

Henry
 
hwwong said:
I built a home studio with two 1000w tungsten lights and several
muslins with different colors. I made two panels with nylon to
soften the light by putting them in front of the tungstens but
found that the light is cut off too much when passing through the
panels. The fastest shutter I can use for a well-exposed portrait
is around 1/30s. As my subjects are mainly babies and young kids,
it is critical to get a fast shutter speed to freeze their motion
as they don't tend to stand still for you to shoot.

Does a softbox help in this situation? I think the softbox can
concentrate the light towards one direction while the panel I made
reflects light back and hence lose part of the light. Any
suggestion to improve? Thanks in advance.

Henry
Click to expand...
What kind of tungsten light are you using? Aren't they too hot especially for the babies? I played around with hot light for a while and gave up because of heat, slow shutter speed and clumsy setup: just use it for still-life now. I've started to play with external flash now (until I can afford real strobes) and just love the higher shutter speed. Sorry I can't be much help to solve your hot light problem, just to share my experience.
--
http://members.cox.net/qtphotography
http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=22164
 
1000 watts sounds like a lot until you do the math. Ignoring any efficiency factors 1,000 wats for 1/30 second is about 33 watt-seconds. The smallest flash unit Alien Bees makes is 160 watt seconds, equivalent to 4,800 watt seconds at 1/30. Efficiency does matter but only incrementally when you're talking about that magnitude. As you can tell I'm a fan of strobes. They can give you tremendous flexibility not possible with hot lights and won't melt your subject's crayons.

A softbox may help if you get one with a silver interior and don't use a front baffle but that may give you more contrast than you want.
hwwong said:
I built a home studio with two 1000w tungsten lights and several
muslins with different colors. I made two panels with nylon to
soften the light by putting them in front of the tungstens but
found that the light is cut off too much when passing through the
panels. The fastest shutter I can use for a well-exposed portrait
is around 1/30s. As my subjects are mainly babies and young kids,
it is critical to get a fast shutter speed to freeze their motion
as they don't tend to stand still for you to shoot.

Does a softbox help in this situation? I think the softbox can
concentrate the light towards one direction while the panel I made
reflects light back and hence lose part of the light. Any
suggestion to improve? Thanks in advance.

Henry
Click to expand...
 
I started out going down the same path as you, shooting babies and kids with tungsten. In the end, I had to go with strobes. No matter what I tried, I wasn't able to get a fast enough shutter to get a consistent exposure. Sorry I can't help more.

Matt
hwwong said:
I built a home studio with two 1000w tungsten lights and several
muslins with different colors. I made two panels with nylon to
soften the light by putting them in front of the tungstens but
found that the light is cut off too much when passing through the
panels. The fastest shutter I can use for a well-exposed portrait
is around 1/30s. As my subjects are mainly babies and young kids,
it is critical to get a fast shutter speed to freeze their motion
as they don't tend to stand still for you to shoot.

Does a softbox help in this situation? I think the softbox can
concentrate the light towards one direction while the panel I made
reflects light back and hence lose part of the light. Any
suggestion to improve? Thanks in advance.

Henry
Click to expand...
 
Matt,

Is your problem also the incapability of freezing the motion of the babies and kids with tungsten because of its slow shutter speed? Did you use a softbox for the tungsten? And how fast the shutter speed can be when you change to use strobes?

I know strobe is better but it is just out of my budget. Anyway, I will think it all over again.

Henry
Matt Baker said:
Matt
hwwong said:
I built a home studio with two 1000w tungsten lights and several
muslins with different colors. I made two panels with nylon to
soften the light by putting them in front of the tungstens but
found that the light is cut off too much when passing through the
panels. The fastest shutter I can use for a well-exposed portrait
is around 1/30s. As my subjects are mainly babies and young kids,
it is critical to get a fast shutter speed to freeze their motion
as they don't tend to stand still for you to shoot.

Does a softbox help in this situation? I think the softbox can
concentrate the light towards one direction while the panel I made
reflects light back and hence lose part of the light. Any
suggestion to improve? Thanks in advance.

Henry
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
hwwong said:
I built a home studio with two 1000w tungsten lights and several
muslins with different colors. I made two panels with nylon to
soften the light by putting them in front of the tungstens but
found that the light is cut off too much when passing through the
panels. The fastest shutter I can use for a well-exposed portrait
is around 1/30s. As my subjects are mainly babies and young kids,
it is critical to get a fast shutter speed to freeze their motion
as they don't tend to stand still for you to shoot.

Does a softbox help in this situation? I think the softbox can
concentrate the light towards one direction while the panel I made
reflects light back and hence lose part of the light. Any
suggestion to improve? Thanks in advance.

Henry
Click to expand...
Hi Henry, I use thin ripstop Nylon to soften the light, but if you are still having trouble you may need to get a softbox as these will make more efficient use of the available light.

If you don't have brand name lights you could make your own using foamboard with the inner linned with aluminum used in cooking trays for reflectiveness, these can be found in most art supply stores (use spray adhesive to secure the Aluminum). You may also consider buying some translusive fabric from http://www.calumenphoto.com .

Try using higher ISO film on your camera.

In the end the amount of light would be highly dependant on the distance to the subject.

--
Cheers
macue
 
Thank you for your suggestion. I agree that making softbox with reflective inner surface can help make more efficient use of the light. But the risk of getting fire concerns me. Does the foamboard resist hot? I don't know. Another concern is, how fast the shutter speed can be if I change to use a softbox, is it still too slow for capture the motion of babies and small kids? I think a shutter speed of at least 1/250s is needed in these cases. What do you think?

Henry
mario cueva said:
Hi Henry, I use thin ripstop Nylon to soften the light, but if you
are still having trouble you may need to get a softbox as these
will make more efficient use of the available light.

If you don't have brand name lights you could make your own using
foamboard with the inner linned with aluminum used in cooking trays
for reflectiveness, these can be found in most art supply stores
(use spray adhesive to secure the Aluminum). You may also consider
buying some translusive fabric from http://www.calumenphoto.com .

Try using higher ISO film on your camera.

In the end the amount of light would be highly dependant on the
distance to the subject.

--
Cheers
macue
Click to expand...
 
I use foamboard attached to 500w halogen lamps with a suspended home made clip I made using thick stiff wire (like that used in coat hangers). the Wire clamps to the inner bafle of the lights and is kind of woven into the foam board. this suspension limits the amount of heat transfered from the hot lights into the foam board. I use this setup for my still life photography and thus is suspended from the ceiling, The home made clips are however strong enough to hold the softbox vertically if needed.

Foamboard is surpisingly resistant to heat, and using the setup descrived above I have no problems, when I do shoots I ususally keep the lights running full power for 1/2 an hour or longer and they only come off for a few minutes while I setup the next shot. If I was setting one up for 1000w lamps i'd probably just make the suspension a little further away from the lights, say 5cm from the front of the light to the start of the foamboard, but you'd need thicker wire to hold it up straight.

Now as for a shutter speed of 1/250s, I doub't you'd get that using this setup. like I said before,I use a 500w lamp with a softbox on a still life table, and with the lamp and softbox about 1 1/2metres above the subject, I can only get arround 1/125s or so using ISO 100 film and at this distance things get a little warm.

For a shutter speed of 1/250s for portrait photography I think you would need more lights or a better option would be to use strobes.
hwwong said:
Henry
hwwong said:
Hi Henry, I use thin ripstop Nylon to soften the light, but if you
are still having trouble you may need to get a softbox as these
will make more efficient use of the available light.

If you don't have brand name lights you could make your own using
foamboard with the inner linned with aluminum used in cooking trays
for reflectiveness, these can be found in most art supply stores
(use spray adhesive to secure the Aluminum). You may also consider
buying some translusive fabric from http://www.calumenphoto.com .

Try using higher ISO film on your camera.

In the end the amount of light would be highly dependant on the
distance to the subject.

--
Cheers
macue
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Cheers
macue
 
Thank you for your information. I just wonder if I can make it 1/125s if I use softboxes instead of the panels. Strobes is better than tungstens in many aspects, but the ease of use and relatively low cost attract me. I will take a deep consideration then. Thank again for you input.

Henry
macue said:
mario cueva said:
mario cueva said:
speed of at least 1/250s is needed in these cases. What do you
think?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
By the way, I think you're aiming too high with 1/250s, I think
1/125s should be enough, anything
will be blurred. You could even get away with 1/90s.

--
Cheers
macue
Click to expand...
 
This past summer I shot 25 seniors using a 1000w Photoflex Starlite in a large Softbox for a main, a 500w starlite in a small softbox for a hair light, plus a reflector for fill. I was please with the results. This set-up was excellent for a person like me who was just getting into portraiture.

However, for my second season I have graduated to strobes (Alien Bees) for three reasons:

1. More control and flexibility
2. Higher shutter speeds
3. Higher shutter speeds

The shutter speed problem was a real issue for me. I had to use around 1/60th of a second and a fairly wide lens opening that made the plane of focus too small. (I had a lot of great photos with only one eye in focus).

And seniors don't move as much as babies!
 
scott, thank you for your sharing. My situation is a little bit different to you. Since I am using a Minolta D7i digital camera, the small DOF problem due to the wide-opened lens is not so apparent to me ( I guess you are using film camera), but is more obvious in close-up. Here is some of the pictures taken by two 1000w tungstens with two big nylon panels.

http://www.pbase.com/hwwong2/wong_hin_shun

I understand strobes have many advantages over tunstens. I am also thinking of getting alien bees or other cheaper strobes. Would you tell me what your setting is and how much you have spent on it?

Henry
Scott Shephard said:
This past summer I shot 25 seniors using a 1000w Photoflex Starlite
in a large Softbox for a main, a 500w starlite in a small softbox
for a hair light, plus a reflector for fill. I was please with the
results. This set-up was excellent for a person like me who was
just getting into portraiture.

However, for my second season I have graduated to strobes (Alien
Bees) for three reasons:

1. More control and flexibility
2. Higher shutter speeds
3. Higher shutter speeds

The shutter speed problem was a real issue for me. I had to use
around 1/60th of a second and a fairly wide lens opening that made
the plane of focus too small. (I had a lot of great photos with
only one eye in focus).

And seniors don't move as much as babies!
Click to expand...
 
Just my 2 cents...

This is an uphill battle...shooting a child under hot lights and slow shutter speeds....
You will notice that all shopping mall baby photo or santa shhot shops
use strobes and softboxes...
you will be well served with the alien bees...
the most distracting element of the photos is the "2" catchlights in the eyes
this work would be better shot with one light and a reflector
producing just one catchlight...
Aloha and quite a cute kid...!
 
hwwong said:
scott, thank you for your sharing. My situation is a little bit
different to you. Since I am using a Minolta D7i digital camera,
the small DOF problem due to the wide-opened lens is not so
apparent to me ( I guess you are using film camera), but is more
obvious in close-up. Here is some of the pictures taken by two
1000w tungstens with two big nylon panels.
Click to expand...
hwwong said:
I understand strobes have many advantages over tunstens. I am also
thinking of getting alien bees or other cheaper strobes. Would you
tell me what your setting is and how much you have spent on it?
Click to expand...
FWIW.I am shooting with a Canon 1D and a 28-70 2.8 and a 70-200 2.8.

I bought the 4 light Alien Bee set, though you could get by with two. I have 2 B400s and 2 B800s. The 400s are more than enough for my needs. In fact I have to power them down to about 1/4 power to give me the amount of light I need. The cost of 2 400s would be about $450.

With strobes I have found that I now have the opposite problem from what I had using the hot lights: a shutter speed of 250 or so requires a lens opening of 8, which leaves the background a little too sharp for my tastes. But I am still experimenting. I will admit that f8 is a lot more forgiving that f2.8!

I have just moved up to a 6' Chimera softbox. I haven't used it yet but I am excited about the possibilities. If you want to see my web site showing what I did last summer with hot lights let me know and I will email the address to you. (I would prefer not to let the whole world know the address.)
 
Thanks, scott. But I am still a little confused. Do you mean you can have a setting of 1/250s at f8 to get a well-exposed portraiture with the B400's powered down to 1/4? If so, the light intensity strobes (like B400) deliver is much much greater than hot lights do.

I am now a little leaning to getting 2 alien bees (B400). According to you, I think they are more than enough for my portrait work for babies. BTW, I've sent an email to you and hope you can send your website address to me. Thanks.

Henry
Scott Shephard said:
FWIW.I am shooting with a Canon 1D and a 28-70 2.8 and a 70-200 2.8.

I bought the 4 light Alien Bee set, though you could get by with
two. I have 2 B400s and 2 B800s. The 400s are more than enough for
my needs. In fact I have to power them down to about 1/4 power to
give me the amount of light I need. The cost of 2 400s would be
about $450.

With strobes I have found that I now have the opposite problem from
what I had using the hot lights: a shutter speed of 250 or so
requires a lens opening of 8, which leaves the background a little
too sharp for my tastes. But I am still experimenting. I will admit
that f8 is a lot more forgiving that f2.8!

I have just moved up to a 6' Chimera softbox. I haven't used it yet
but I am excited about the possibilities. If you want to see my web
site showing what I did last summer with hot lights let me know and
I will email the address to you. (I would prefer not to let the
whole world know the address.)
Click to expand...
 
henry,

i am a lighting newbie, too...

but the only "complaints" i read about the alien bee B400s is that they are TOO STRONG, i never read that they are too weak ... people seem to run them regularely at 1/8th to 1/4th of their max. output

point being ... dont get cought up in the numbers game e.g. B800 better than B400 .... ;o)

b.r.
alfred
hwwong said:
I am now a little leaning to getting 2 alien bees (B400). According
to you, I think they are more than enough for my portrait work for
babies. BTW, I've sent an email to you and hope you can send your
website address to me. Thanks.

Henry
Scott Shephard said:
FWIW.I am shooting with a Canon 1D and a 28-70 2.8 and a 70-200 2.8.

I bought the 4 light Alien Bee set, though you could get by with
two. I have 2 B400s and 2 B800s. The 400s are more than enough for
my needs. In fact I have to power them down to about 1/4 power to
give me the amount of light I need. The cost of 2 400s would be
about $450.

With strobes I have found that I now have the opposite problem from
what I had using the hot lights: a shutter speed of 250 or so
requires a lens opening of 8, which leaves the background a little
too sharp for my tastes. But I am still experimenting. I will admit
that f8 is a lot more forgiving that f2.8!

I have just moved up to a 6' Chimera softbox. I haven't used it yet
but I am excited about the possibilities. If you want to see my web
site showing what I did last summer with hot lights let me know and
I will email the address to you. (I would prefer not to let the
whole world know the address.)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--

=================
http://www.pbase.com/abudschitz
=================
 
Hey Scott,

I would love to see the difference that you get between the strobes which u used with umbrellas VS the softbox (btw is is the softbox also with a strobe or not)

I would like to learn a bit about portrait photography and don't know if I should get a softbox or the b400

-newbie
Danny
Scott Shephard said:
hwwong said:
scott, thank you for your sharing. My situation is a little bit
different to you. Since I am using a Minolta D7i digital camera,
the small DOF problem due to the wide-opened lens is not so
apparent to me ( I guess you are using film camera), but is more
obvious in close-up. Here is some of the pictures taken by two
1000w tungstens with two big nylon panels.
Click to expand...
Scott Shephard said:
I understand strobes have many advantages over tunstens. I am also
thinking of getting alien bees or other cheaper strobes. Would you
tell me what your setting is and how much you have spent on it?
Click to expand...
FWIW.I am shooting with a Canon 1D and a 28-70 2.8 and a 70-200 2.8.

I bought the 4 light Alien Bee set, though you could get by with
two. I have 2 B400s and 2 B800s. The 400s are more than enough for
my needs. In fact I have to power them down to about 1/4 power to
give me the amount of light I need. The cost of 2 400s would be
about $450.

With strobes I have found that I now have the opposite problem from
what I had using the hot lights: a shutter speed of 250 or so
requires a lens opening of 8, which leaves the background a little
too sharp for my tastes. But I am still experimenting. I will admit
that f8 is a lot more forgiving that f2.8!

I have just moved up to a 6' Chimera softbox. I haven't used it yet
but I am excited about the possibilities. If you want to see my web
site showing what I did last summer with hot lights let me know and
I will email the address to you. (I would prefer not to let the
whole world know the address.)
Click to expand...
 
Scott Shephard said:
I have just moved up to a 6' Chimera softbox. I haven't used it yet
but I am excited about the possibilities. If you want to see my web
site showing what I did last summer with hot lights let me know and
I will email the address to you. (I would prefer not to let the
whole world know the address.)
Click to expand...
I know what you did last summer!
 
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