Are you a professional or an amateur photographer?

I'm in a similar situation to you. I've had an artistic drive all
my life, that has variously taken form as a painter, furniture
maker, videographer, and photographer, but I'm a physician as my
carreer. I've been a photographer for almost 30 years, and have
recently turned it into a side-business, basically making enough to
upgrade my cameras, lenses, printers, etc. I've gotten more word
of mouth business after marketing some work and doing a few art
shows, and now am doing some commercial landscape shooting for a
marketing firm. While certainly less stressful and more creative
than practicing medicine, I'd hate to become a pro photographer, as
then I'd have to shoot things that I have no interest in, and when
I don't feel creative. I wouldn't assume that just because someone
is a fulltime pro, that they're actually artistically gifted. I've
seen work from a number of 'pros' that, while techinally
proficient, lacked artistic merit, and was barely better than a
well-exposed snapshot. Don't get too stuck in labels. I like the
distinction 'photographer' mentioned above, rather than 'pro' or
'amateur'.
A little insight, if I might be so bold.

When being a physician, are you always in the best of mood when you go to work? And when you do arrive at work in this foulist of moods, do you do your best to amilerate your lousy attitude? And while in this lousyist of moods do you do your best to be creative and continue helping the patients with their problems, all the while wanting to be some place else? Do you not have to help patients that you have no love for and wish would go to some other person's practice? Do you try your best to help people that you could really care less about? And all the while, why these emotions of your's are in conflict, don't you do your professional, level headed best to help these people?

Is being a professional photographer any different?
 
I am a professional to those who do not know better. I am an amateur to professional photographers. :)

I've made some money (back in my HS days, enough to pay for photography and get a used SLR body and lenses) but these days I only want to do it for fun. If I get lucky with a shot (being at the right place, at the right time with the right attitude to see the shot), then I am blessed. In fact I have one print right now that is very hot. It is a blue bonnet shot that has taken me by surprise.

--
TonyK
 
If you are legally able to write off your camera, lenses. etc...
you are a pro. If you aren't. You are an amateur.
Unless you need the equipment to record your efforts:-)

Pest Control operators need photographic equipment to record insect activity to give to the educational community:-)

Here's my latest insect shot. These are two (duh!) Crane Flies having intercourse (another big duh!).

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1423468

They will be forwarded onto a professor at UC Davis, CA; Vernard Lewis.
 
Instead or worrying about qualifying your status as pro or amatuer, just say "I shot those pictures," or "that's my work," or, if you happen to be wearing a beret and a turtleneck sweater, "these are some of my creations."

Sounds like you should get an s&m doctor outfit for home use.

"The doctor will see you now!"

Zidar
Alaska
Having
said that, I told my wife that I would have to spank her into
submission....she went for it...she's gotten tried of me playing
doctor. Thanks for the idea...

BTW,
I'm an amateur surgeon...with very professional instuments...so I
must be good, right? ;)

--
Ninad
...resistance is futile...
http://www.ninadartworks.com
--
It's not about stuff.
http://www.pbase.com/zidar
 
I'm both a pro and an advanced amateur. I own a studio and shoot weddings, portraits and the like for a living. I also shoot nature, landscape, and wildlife for hobby, and sometimes I have the opportunity to sell them.

As for quality between an amateur and a pro, hmmmmm...... Before I went "pro" I had a job during the week and shot on weekends. I thought what I produced was pretty good, but not "pro quality". I got better through lots of practice and a very understanding wife. One day I happened to run into a "pro" photographer and we became friends. He showed me some of his work and we talked about it. I thought his work was good, very good actually, but mine were a little better, technically. He had more good work than I, but I had some that were better than his. I showed him mine and he was surprised an "amateur" could produce such quality.

Just goes to show you that a pro is not necessarily better than an amateur, and it is my experience that someone who does something they want to do without expecting any payment is going to do an excellent job for themselves, but getting paid negates a lot of freedom and you are expected to please the client. Many times, I've had my artistic hands tied when shooting weddings, all they wanted was "look here and smile" and I don't generally shoot that way. But.....they were paying so I grit my teeth and shot that way. If I had simply been a guest, I could shoot whatever I wanted and get some awesome photos for the couple (which I did anyway and they loved that too!)

My 2 cents,

Brian
 
Thanks! The blue sky series was via a circular polarizer. Previous attempts to saturate the sky in Photoshop had turned out to be rather sickly looking (the boundary between sky and foreground is especially problematic for me) so I caved in and bought the polarizer.
Student of the arts,eh? Some nice shots on your webpage...I like
the Blue sky series...did you a polai\rizer or was that post
processing?
 
At least very few "good" ones will.
They would be too busy making money .The wannabee pros I see here
are all too willing to post their supposed days shoots here for
everyone to see. I suspect there are few busy working pros in the
Pro forum too. What I see here are a lot of advanced amateurs.
Wouldn't that be like saying that real Pest Control Operators would be too busy to post here?

No offense, just asking a thought provoking question.
 
Thanks! The blue sky series was via a circular polarizer. Previous
attempts to saturate the sky in Photoshop had turned out to be
rather sickly looking (the boundary between sky and foreground is
especially problematic for me) so I caved in and bought the
polarizer.
As a thought, try shooting away from the Sun in the morning or evening. I don't know if this will help but it worked wonders for the church shot you so thoughtfully commented on.

I don't know if it was a fluke, the 20mm WA lens or the time of day but the shot sure looked like a CirPl was used.

I'll experiment when I have the time. Allow me to encourage you to give it a try, just to see what "develops" :-)
 
I am a professional to those who do not know better. I am an
amateur to professional photographers. :)

I've made some money (back in my HS days, enough to pay for
photography and get a used SLR body and lenses) but these days I
only want to do it for fun. If I get lucky with a shot (being at
the right place, at the right time with the right attitude to see
the shot), then I am blessed. In fact I have one print right now
that is very hot. It is a blue bonnet shot that has taken me by
surprise.
And then, being from Cal-i-for-ni-a, I thought of the type a gal my wear on her head...... and then I remembered your flower shots:-)

My wife already said it for you..... "Tom!.....Pure city!" :-) with her shaking her head as she walked away:-) She's a country girl, to the bone:-)
 
Okayokay, I've been back (some other threads but avoiding this one until now). I have to admit I was in a funk last night and earlier this morning.
What your were seeing was what's called "shell shocked"; when the
effort of the process overwhelms ones emotional self. Others call
it "burn out".
Maybe he was suffering from burn out, but he certainly left me shell shocked, too.
In photography class I was looked upon in a less then favorable
light for two comments I made. One, I could create the perfect
image. Second, money was more important then the art. This coming
from an art student.

Allow me to explain the two comments. Everything is perfect. What
happens is, as humans, we evaluate things based upon our
insecurities. A branch or leaf is not out of place but our
thinking is.
Sounds reasonable to me, in general. But . . . everything is perfect? How can I say something like that when I know I'm not perfect. I think (just my thinking which could be wrong because I am not perfect) perfection can only be known or understood by one who is perfect. Now, if everything is perfect, that must include me, too, but I know from experience how many times I had to learn the hard way that I not perfect. I know for instance that foot-in-mouth is good way to get butt kicked. NOT perfect! All right, I'm stretching a bit, but I've done enough bone-headed things in my life to know . . . well now . . . maybe I'm the perfect bone head. :-)

Seriously, things may not be perfect but they are life. Animate or inanimate – it's all about atoms constantly in motion – you, me, the camera I use, or whatever else – life and life recording life – one collection of atoms beholding and recording another collection of atoms. What holds us all together moment by moment, preventing us from scattering into a chaotic, formless mess of wandering atoms? Who made all those templates that contain us with mathematical precision? You may not agree with what I believe (that's okay), but there are times when I'm out there with my camera (other times, too) when I sense the presence of a super-intelligent someone or something. Woops, there I go again, groping for words and not knowing if I made any sense at all.
Second, how is money more important than art? Without money, in
today's economic society, there would be no art. Now many would
jump on this but based upon society's expectations, no matter how
you cut the cheese, everything costs money. So you have to have
money to get to the excesses of creating art; even if it's with
found objects. It still costs money to live. No living, no art.
I was told that I would never be a photographer as I had the wrong,
materialistic outlook.
It doesn't really matter to me. Like you, I have a decent job that pays the bills and enables me to enjoy my hobby.
Today, I can pretty much buy and equipment I need or want and when
I have free time, I can go out locally and photograph to my hearts
content. Why, because I relegated money to it's rightful postion,
a floor in which to walk on.
Knock that off! If I might be so bold:-)
Okay, I'm knocking that off. I love photography but hate the business end of it. If, somehow, I could do what I like doing without wasting energy being concerned about moneymoneymoney, then I might seriously listen to someone telling me I should consider selling my work. I have nothing against money. I wouldn't mind having some more. But, if the goal is to acquire more money through photography, then photography isn't the goal – making money is. Plus, there is another reason I can't sell much of anything I've done (and I've talked about it before on another thread) – very little of what I've done would qualify as material for a fine print. A lot of my stuff was done with the little 2mp-4mp point & shoot cameras. But, oh boy, that 10D . . . with the right lenses that camera blows away a LOT of my previous efforts (I'm talking about 35mm too). I might have some (or all) who will disagree with me about this, but I don't see how the 1Ds is $6500 better than the 10D. Hey, I know I can be wrong. After all, I am not perfect.
Please, speak up. Say what you have to say. Put links to your
images for our pleasure. Step up to the plate and swing the bat.
It's only a game and we're all players. There's no score and
nobody's a winner and nobody is a loser but you have to swing the
bat to enjoy the thrill of the game:-)
Thanks, Tom. I appreciate what you said. Okay, I'll put my link as part of my tag line again. Keep in mind that I am content with having my images as Internet postings.
--
Tom
Photography – you gotta love it. All kinds of flavors and enough
for everyone. :-)
http://www.pbase.com/tomrok
 
Look at the word people:

Professional, yanno, like PROFESSION. It doesn't mean you're an EXPERT, it simply indicates that Photography is your PROFESSION, you make your living off of it, that is what PROFESSIONAL means. Why can't people get this straight? There are expert professionals and there are pitiful professionals. There are also expert amateurs and pitiful amateurs and amateurs that don't really CARE what you think of their pictures, they just want to have some fun.

--
Chris A. Epler
http://members.fotki.com/cepler/
 
In reply, Thomas, of course, of course, and of corse! That's my point. After 15 years of medicine, I feel burned out, lacking enthusiasm, and having to 'make myself' give my best effort every day. I don't want that to happen to my passion for photography. I don't want it to become 'a job'. I've listened to the stories of burned out pro photographers dreading another wedding shoot or day of family portraits or product shots for a diffucult client, which I'm sure they used to enjoy, when they first started. I've never had the kind of love for medicine that I've had for art and photography. I have a high ability for it, and it pays the bills, but it's not my passion. I think that some of the most talented photographers in the world have stayed 'amateur' for just that reason (I'm unfortunately not among them). If you can do it all day every day and still love it after a decade or so, you're a very lucky person indeed.
-David
A little insight, if I might be so bold.

When being a physician, are you always in the best of mood when you
go to work? And when you do arrive at work in this foulist of
moods, do you do your best to amilerate your lousy attitude? And
while in this lousyist of moods do you do your best to be creative
and continue helping the patients with their problems, all the
while wanting to be some place else? Do you not have to help
patients that you have no love for and wish would go to some other
person's practice? Do you try your best to help people that you
could really care less about? And all the while, why these
emotions of your's are in conflict, don't you do your professional,
level headed best to help these people?

Is being a professional photographer any different?
--
David

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/home?userid= {F351C88E-FEF7-4892-9F30-9FD2DDD1593C}&tio=0tio=0&st=he&GUID={0AB0EAE9-1AF7-41AE-966B-588570432D96}&sent=stored
 
Running a school is my more than full time profession. After several years of putting up with "school photographers"....I decided that I would do the kids, and the groups....that has succeeded wonderfully...no-one would go back........ I give the money to the school.

However that has led to requests for portrait sessions which I do sparingly and expensively...enough to keep my equipment as good as I want. Sparingly because I don't have that much time available...it's nice to be in demand. Expensively, only because my time is very important to me.

I am not a full time photographer, it is only a small part of my income...so I'm an amateur

People ask me and pay me to spend time photographing....it's a fun deal on the side.

To qualify as a pro imo it has to represent 80+percent of your income. BUT being a pro does not mean you are good....witness my school photographer experience...definitely a pro who just wanted to turn those pics out as fast as possible. Conversely, many really superb artists in the field that I know....do it as a hobby.

Part of the problem lies in the" baggage" we associate with "professional" and "amateur" excellence in the former, amateurishness in the latter. That" baggage" dog don't hunt.

Fremiet
http://www.pbase.com/fremiet
 
By definition, you are a professional if you are paid for your
work.
I disagree that your definition is all inclusive of the meaning of professional. Surgery is my profession...I had to get a fair amount of training and degrees to become a surgeon...that's what makes me a professional. Now if I chose to do only volunteer work in a third world country using my own money to live would I still not be a professional surgeon? Yes. If you ask most people what they think of as the difference between a hack (no "accreditated" training) and a qualified surgeon...it would be their schooling, training, degrees that would separate them. If I started doing minor procedure right out of medical school and got paid for it...would that make me a professional? No...just getting paid for a skill isn't the only variable in the definition.

As for getting out and living...I seem to detect some animosity against the "profession" I'm in. What happened...your surgery didn't turn out the way you had expect and now you are sore about it? Or, could it be plain envy...BTW, what is your profession?

Don't worry about me taking time to do mundane thing in life...I've spent these last ten minute replying you haven't I?

--
Ninad
...resistance is futile...
http://www.ninadartworks.com
 
Allow me to explain the two comments. Everything is perfect. What
happens is, as humans, we evaluate things based upon our
insecurities. A branch or leaf is not out of place but our
thinking is.
Sounds reasonable to me, in general. But . . . everything is
perfect? How can I say something like that when I know I'm not
perfect.
For the most part, we're all perfect, people like Charles Manson are the exception to the rule. It's only society that condemns because it allows them to assert control over others. This philosophy runs deep and would step on many toes.
I think (just my thinking which could be wrong because I
am not perfect) perfection can only be known or understood by one
who is perfect.
You might be confusing perfection with a need to get along. If you had a hundred perfect people in a room that spoke different languages and none were common, would not some change need to come about in order for mutual communication to come about? It's the same sort of thing, adapting for the purpose of acceptable communal communication, requires change but at no time does it violate the perfection equation.

Learning is not imperfection, it's just the normal offshoot of ignorance but doesn't make a person, imperfect. When people are judged are they being judged by the judge's personal convictions and does this judge apply the same standard to themselves? This imperfection theory is a society thing that keeps people down, not build them up. It's based upon insecurity, not security. You can equate this with imperfection as a conflict to what I say but it negates the message of what's being communicated.
Now, if everything is perfect, that must include
me, too, but I know from experience how many times I had to learn
the hard way that I not perfect.
That's because some button head got to you and beat you up mentally and you aquiested to their thinking:-) Allow me to give you a set of ear plugs so their BS will stop filling your ears:-) We not only have to keep our BS out of our ears but we also have to guard against others:-)
I know for instance that
foot-in-mouth is good way to get butt kicked. NOT perfect! All
right, I'm stretching a bit, but I've done enough bone-headed
things in my life to know . . . well now . . . maybe I'm the
perfect bone head. :-)
That doesn't mean you're not perfect. Again, you're judging yourself against a standard that doesn't exist, anywhere. Look at President Bush's speech patterns. Well maybe that's a bad example:-)
Seriously, things may not be perfect but they are life.
Sure they are, you just need to cast off the shackles of societal thinking.

Remember, this coming from a "Conservative".
Okay, I'm knocking that off. I love photography but hate the
business end of it. If, somehow, I could do what I like doing
without wasting energy being concerned about moneymoneymoney, then
I might seriously listen to someone telling me I should consider
selling my work.
And the need to sell your work is? Could it be more of society's nonsense that if you don't put a price on it and sell it, it doesn't have worth? Could it be that if you don't sell your work then you're not going to be taken seriously? And this need to be taken seriously comes from where????? Society's insecurities??????
I have nothing against money. I wouldn't mind
having some more. But, if the goal is to acquire more money through
photography, then photography isn't the goal – making money is.
And what's wrong with that? I make a living killing bugs. I do it for money. Guess what? I have fun doing it. Not the killing of the bugs but the interaction with the customers, driving around in the truck, capturing images along the way and listening to the likes of "Big Bad Voodoo Daddy" or "The Brian Setzer Orchestra". I actually get paid:-)

The point, it's your outlook on the situation. If I could have this same outlook with photography, I wouldn't hesitate to go pro.
Plus, there is another reason I can't sell much of anything I've
done (and I've talked about it before on another thread) – very
little of what I've done would qualify as material for a fine
print. A lot of my stuff was done with the little 2mp-4mp point &
shoot cameras. But, oh boy, that 10D . . . with the right lenses
that camera blows away a LOT of my previous efforts (I'm talking
about 35mm too). I might have some (or all) who will disagree with
me about this, but I don't see how the 1Ds is $6500 better than the
10D. Hey, I know I can be wrong. After all, I am not perfect.
I would love to have the 1Ds and we'll all be able to get a 1Ds equivalent in the next couple of years, so enjoy the 10D because "hold on it's coming" as it's very near:-) In the meantime, my 10D's money was given to the wife for a shopping spree and spring planting:-) Gotta keep the wife happy if I want her to let me have the camera equipment without complaint:-)
Please, speak up. Say what you have to say. Put links to your
images for our pleasure. Step up to the plate and swing the bat.
It's only a game and we're all players. There's no score and
nobody's a winner and nobody is a loser but you have to swing the
bat to enjoy the thrill of the game:-)
Thanks, Tom. I appreciate what you said. Okay, I'll put my link as
part of my tag line again. Keep in mind that I am content with
having my images as Internet postings.
That's about all I do. I post and share with the forum. I share with my customers and have the images professionally framed and place on the walls about the house:-) I call it "vanity framing".
 
--
'In cyberspace, you can't hear the screams...'
'Price is only an issue in the absence of value.'
'Being 6'8' means not having to say you're sorry...'

Equipment list in profile.
 
In reply, Thomas, of course, of course, and of corse! That's my
point. After 15 years of medicine, I feel burned out, lacking
enthusiasm, and having to 'make myself' give my best effort every
day.
Then it's time to get a "Hot Dog Cart". Huh! Sure, one day I got a hot dog cart. It was the finest hot dog cart in all de land. For two month I worked this cart, five days a week, twelve hours a day. What did I leave behind, a very lucrative remodel business of forty - fifty bucks an hour and a pest control business that gave me even more. I was the guy, you would hire to do your bathroom or would hire to get rid of your ants. A sort of "House Doctor" :-) But along the way, I lost sight and perspective..... "burnout".

Well, after two months of this wacked out idea of becoming a romantic hot dog vendor, the realities of what I did set in and one day, out of my mouth ushered an appology to my tools. It was an involuntary, spur of the moment, appology.

What I found out was that I had lost sight and purpose of what it was I was doing. I had lost perspective. The next day, I went to the yellow page/phone company, had my phone turned back on and never looked back. Well with the exception of selling the "Hot Dog Cart" :-)
I don't want that to happen to my passion for photography. I
don't want it to become 'a job'. I've listened to the stories of
burned out pro photographers dreading another wedding shoot or day
of family portraits or product shots for a diffucult client, which
I'm sure they used to enjoy, when they first started.
I use to have difficult clients and then I changed. The clients, for the most part weren't the difficult one. Now I'm flexable as a chameleon and the clients stopped being difficult:-) Attitude:-) When I start stressing bigtime, I slow the work flow down for a couple of hours or days, as needed. If others aren't into that, oh well:-) Not to be flip, it's necessary to recognize stress and address it head on as opposed to pretending it's not taking it's toll on your internal organs:-)
I've never
had the kind of love for medicine that I've had for art and
photography. I have a high ability for it, and it pays the bills,
but it's not my passion.
Now we have to work on the fun factor:-)
I think that some of the most talented
photographers in the world have stayed 'amateur' for just that
reason (I'm unfortunately not among them). If you can do it all
day every day and still love it after a decade or so, you're a very
lucky person indeed.
I don't see photography or medicine any different then pest control. I go into six to ten different houses a day, driving a hundred miles and taking thirty, forty or more phone calls on a given Summer day:-) Stress? Oh you betcha:-) But learning to control the stress as opposed to it controlling you is the key.

Heck I might even take an afternoon off and drop a couple hundred at the bar buying rounds and having a great time drinking and eating too much. I call it my six hour vacation. Wife picks me up and it's off to the races, very slowly I might add, the next day at five o'clock.

As I posted earlier, if I could port the fun I'm having as a pest control operator over to photography, I'd do it in a heartbeat, but I also would need to make the same amount of money and I don't think that's gonna happen. Why? Because the pest control services provided are now down to a formula that allows me to not have to think, so I'm able to have fun with my customers.

I'm spoiled after all these twenty-three years:-)
 
By definition, you are a professional if you are paid for your
work.
I disagree that your definition is all inclusive of the meaning of
professional. Surgery is my profession...I had to get a fair amount
of training and degrees to become a surgeon...that's what makes me
a professional.
Please ignore the posters comments. He was trolling for a reaction by dissing your profession in his comments.

Understand this need to cause people harm as a mental illness that maybe a medical professional will be able to help:-)
 

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