Is the human eye capable of seing infrared?

it's strange, because of course I cannot see any light from the remote looking through the filter...so what I must be seing is the very near IR light but that is enough to give me the white foliage effect? very strange in deed.

So my eye cannot see IR light and what I must be seing is something else..yet I still get the effect that the foliage is turning from dark to light by looking through the filter. I am puzzled :)
In daytime this emission component is overpowered out by reflected
sunlight. That, at least is how I think it works.
Hi John, I am not sure that last statement is totally correct,
seems if that were the complete case, we would not need ir goggles
to see heat at night. You see what I mean?? Or did you mean
something else??
Parker,

All warm bodies emit infrared light. Try taking a photo of your
clothes iron in the dark with an ifrared sensitive film or digital
image sensor. It should come out white. As someone said, that's
how the cops track fugitives at night from the helicopter. The
infrared emitted by their bodies is sensed by highly sensitive
cameras. If the fugitive wore enough insulation (winter parkers),
they would be much harder to dedect.
Actually, we are just talking wavelengths, I studied them a lot
when I was an radio frequency tech, and then in nuclear power
school, you may have missed my later posts referring to the heat,
anyway, it is just all relative to sensitivity of the sensor, freq
range of the sensors systems, and how small amount of heat (thermal
radiation I believe?).

The thing that freaks me out is in the radar range, where you need
a square hollow pipe and bends at half and quarter wavelengths to
make the electrons keep flowing. And then you have to track the
hole flow backwards, which is actually forwards.
What surprised me about Daniella's original post is that she
claimed to see infrared emitters as white. The reason film and
digi-cams see it as white is that the exposure is such that the
infrared light saturates the film or image sensor and it appears
white. I would expect the human eye to adjust and see the infrared
as a deep red color. In my iron example, if you ran the iron very
hot and turned out the lights, you might see the higher end of it's
spectrum as a dull red glow. With an electic stove, you can keep
cranking up the power and eventually the stove coils will appear
orange. If you could go further, they would eventually emit white
light. However, they'd probably burn out or melt before that
point. There are lots of such examples, but these illustrate where
I'm coming from
I am not sure on the exact frequencies and colors and rendering
oddities the eye performs. I do know, when camcorders first came
out and were 2500 bucks, I used to test suspect remotes by beaming
them into the lens,
worked great, cant rember if it was red or white because the
viewfinders were b/w and I can't remember what shades the dots
were. I never did record the beams to find out.

Oh yeah, the primary colors combined make white, correct??

Parker
--
Daniella
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=26918
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
C7OO FORUM: http://www.c700uz.com

c7OOuz, Dimage-7, Tcon14tele, C210tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND, Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya R72.
 
Oh yeah, the primary colors combined make white, correct??

Parker
That's right for sure. However, remember that digital image sensors are really just luminance (light intensity) sensors. Filters over the individual sensor sites determine the color. With the Bayer algorithm and the exposure cranked up, I suspect that it would be fooled into thinking the image was white. Also, I don't know how the green and blue filters over the sensors work. Do they pass any infrared light? If so, then that explains why the image is white wherever the infrared is bright (if I can call it bright).

Dewdrop
 
Well, the human eye has both luminance (sensitive to the entire visible spectrum) and color (wavelength-specific) sensors, so it sounds like only her luminance sensors are sensitive to the infrared light.
What surprised me about Daniella's original post is that she
claimed to see infrared emitters as white. The reason film and
digi-cams see it as white is that the exposure is such that the
infrared light saturates the film or image sensor and it appears
white. I would expect the human eye to adjust and see the infrared
as a deep red color. In my iron example, if you ran the iron very
hot and turned out the lights, you might see the higher end of it's
spectrum as a dull red glow. With an electic stove, you can keep
cranking up the power and eventually the stove coils will appear
orange. If you could go further, they would eventually emit white
light. However, they'd probably burn out or melt before that
point. There are lots of such examples, but these illustrate where
I'm coming from

Dewdrop
 
Army IR google are used in combinaison with an ir illuminator if I
understood correctly. In order to see IR you definily need a
source or emitter.. If there is no moon, or other sources of light,
as I understand it, there is no night vision.
I am think they use passive and active systems in the field now a days, The best night vision in place today on the Abrahms 2 tanks is thermal imaging, it is somewhat different to traditional ir. It allows for INCREDIBLY better night operations, it is not green either. Of coarse that is not as good as satellite targeting but it is very good today.

Everything emits a wavelength of some specific frequencies. Everything, living or dead, if we use the right sensors, we can detect that. We do not need light these days, but that is wher we cross over into the newer technology of thermal imaging. Supposedly you could stop a persons heart by emitting a freq of 6 hz or something like that, probably wepons stuff, who knows.

This is a far more complex subject than just "light". Wavelength detectors come in all shapes and sizes. Some would argue you have no real mass, and are just sort of a ball of radiation and your eyes just perceive the mass. I'll stop here, getting carried away now. :)
 
I think they probably have an IR emillter like a remote and that light reflect on obects, a bit like a bat used radar waves maybe ?
I think the goggles bend the IR wavelength into the visible range.
Bry
In daytime this emission component is overpowered out by reflected
sunlight. That, at least is how I think it works.
Hi John, I am not sure that last statement is totally correct,
seems if that were the complete case, we would not need ir goggles
to see heat at night. You see what I mean?? Or did you mean
something else??

Parker
--
Daniella
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=26918
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
C7OO FORUM: http://www.c700uz.com

c7OOuz, Dimage-7, Tcon14tele, C210tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND, Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya R72.
 
it's strange, because of course I cannot see any light from the
remote looking through the filter...so what I must be seing is the
very near IR light but that is enough to give me the white foliage
effect? very strange in deed.
I knew this was going to get complicated, good original post for coversation, learning and fun. And Confusion.

I am not sure exactly how the eye and the camera do the interpretation, I have never paid attention to anything on I learned on this or else I forgot or am not thinking of it now.

I know more about the wavelengths and electrons not specific to photooptics, just some or the underlying theory and principals. I am learning how these camaras do these things.

Since you cannot see Ir I would believe this to be true. You are seing the visable light frequency representation as your camera rerendered it.
So my eye cannot see IR light and what I must be seing is something
else..yet I still get the effect that the foliage is turning from
dark to light by looking through the filter. I am puzzled :)
Yup, here is a quote from one of my best electronics instructors, when the subject became to complex for further discussion. "PFM" I said what is PFM, he said "pure f_ing magic". Time to move on and take a test I think.

Pretty funny huh?? Hope you did not mind my french.

Wavelengths and frequencies are one earths wierdsest things, I am always asying the same thing. If we understood all this, we would understand the beggining of things. I think.
In daytime this emission component is overpowered out by reflected
sunlight. That, at least is how I think it works.
Hi John, I am not sure that last statement is totally correct,
seems if that were the complete case, we would not need ir goggles
to see heat at night. You see what I mean?? Or did you mean
something else??
Parker,

All warm bodies emit infrared light. Try taking a photo of your
clothes iron in the dark with an ifrared sensitive film or digital
image sensor. It should come out white. As someone said, that's
how the cops track fugitives at night from the helicopter. The
infrared emitted by their bodies is sensed by highly sensitive
cameras. If the fugitive wore enough insulation (winter parkers),
they would be much harder to dedect.
Actually, we are just talking wavelengths, I studied them a lot
when I was an radio frequency tech, and then in nuclear power
school, you may have missed my later posts referring to the heat,
anyway, it is just all relative to sensitivity of the sensor, freq
range of the sensors systems, and how small amount of heat (thermal
radiation I believe?).

The thing that freaks me out is in the radar range, where you need
a square hollow pipe and bends at half and quarter wavelengths to
make the electrons keep flowing. And then you have to track the
hole flow backwards, which is actually forwards.
What surprised me about Daniella's original post is that she
claimed to see infrared emitters as white. The reason film and
digi-cams see it as white is that the exposure is such that the
infrared light saturates the film or image sensor and it appears
white. I would expect the human eye to adjust and see the infrared
as a deep red color. In my iron example, if you ran the iron very
hot and turned out the lights, you might see the higher end of it's
spectrum as a dull red glow. With an electic stove, you can keep
cranking up the power and eventually the stove coils will appear
orange. If you could go further, they would eventually emit white
light. However, they'd probably burn out or melt before that
point. There are lots of such examples, but these illustrate where
I'm coming from
I am not sure on the exact frequencies and colors and rendering
oddities the eye performs. I do know, when camcorders first came
out and were 2500 bucks, I used to test suspect remotes by beaming
them into the lens,
worked great, cant rember if it was red or white because the
viewfinders were b/w and I can't remember what shades the dots
were. I never did record the beams to find out.

Oh yeah, the primary colors combined make white, correct??

Parker
--
Daniella
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=26918
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
C7OO FORUM: http://www.c700uz.com
c7OOuz, Dimage-7, Tcon14tele, C210tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND,
Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya R72.
 
Cool, how does the new thermal imaging do it?? Like on the AbrahamsII.

The range is incredible superior to ir, must be a different technique alltogether?

Parker
 
Some are active others are passive. One beams one does not. Depends on the system incorporated in the vehicle or goglles, plane or satellite.
 
A bat uses ultrasound, totally different to light. With bats you are getting onto sound wavelengths, a completely different topic :-) They emit a high pitched sound (ultrasound, same style of thing that allows you to see the baby inside a mother's stomach), and this hits objects of different relative density, and is bounced back at different strengths relative to the density of the object they are hitting (and the amount of water etc in it).

Back to the topic of light and not sound, you could be correct, but I am 90% sure that they are just picking up the IRadiation (heat) from the subject. As mentioned in this thread, due to metabolic reactions, living creatures emit a constant source of heat, and a lot of this is just radiation (in the infrared spectrum). When you put on night goggles it compresses the longer (?) infrared spectrum into the shorter visible spectrum, allowing you to see these subjects at night.
Bry
I think the goggles bend the IR wavelength into the visible range.
Bry
In daytime this emission component is overpowered out by reflected
sunlight. That, at least is how I think it works.
Hi John, I am not sure that last statement is totally correct,
seems if that were the complete case, we would not need ir goggles
to see heat at night. You see what I mean?? Or did you mean
something else??

Parker
--
Daniella
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=26918
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
C7OO FORUM: http://www.c700uz.com
c7OOuz, Dimage-7, Tcon14tele, C210tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND,
Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya R72.
 
Julie from the Olympus forum tried her R72 filter and she also can see the effect of white vegetation...

Could it be that the green light is what makes the foliage apparent dark and when you cut the green light with a red filter, you are cutting what makes the vegetation dark and it become light?

that would explain why I can easily see the vegetation turning white with my eye and the filter. Not sure if there is another explanation, I am only speculating.

Anyway, I am not crazy...at least one other person did the test with the same result as me :)
it's strange, because of course I cannot see any light from the
remote looking through the filter...so what I must be seing is the
very near IR light but that is enough to give me the white foliage
effect? very strange in deed.
I knew this was going to get complicated, good original post for
coversation, learning and fun. And Confusion.

I am not sure exactly how the eye and the camera do the
interpretation, I have never paid attention to anything on I
learned on this or else I forgot or am not thinking of it now.

I know more about the wavelengths and electrons not specific to
photooptics, just some or the underlying theory and principals. I
am learning how these camaras do these things.

Since you cannot see Ir I would believe this to be true. You are
seing the visable light frequency representation as your camera
rerendered it.
So my eye cannot see IR light and what I must be seing is something
else..yet I still get the effect that the foliage is turning from
dark to light by looking through the filter. I am puzzled :)
Yup, here is a quote from one of my best electronics instructors,
when the subject became to complex for further discussion. "PFM" I
said what is PFM, he said "pure f_ing magic". Time to move on and
take a test I think.

Pretty funny huh?? Hope you did not mind my french.

Wavelengths and frequencies are one earths wierdsest things, I am
always asying the same thing. If we understood all this, we would
understand the beggining of things. I think.
In daytime this emission component is overpowered out by reflected
sunlight. That, at least is how I think it works.
Hi John, I am not sure that last statement is totally correct,
seems if that were the complete case, we would not need ir goggles
to see heat at night. You see what I mean?? Or did you mean
something else??
Parker,

All warm bodies emit infrared light. Try taking a photo of your
clothes iron in the dark with an ifrared sensitive film or digital
image sensor. It should come out white. As someone said, that's
how the cops track fugitives at night from the helicopter. The
infrared emitted by their bodies is sensed by highly sensitive
cameras. If the fugitive wore enough insulation (winter parkers),
they would be much harder to dedect.
Actually, we are just talking wavelengths, I studied them a lot
when I was an radio frequency tech, and then in nuclear power
school, you may have missed my later posts referring to the heat,
anyway, it is just all relative to sensitivity of the sensor, freq
range of the sensors systems, and how small amount of heat (thermal
radiation I believe?).

The thing that freaks me out is in the radar range, where you need
a square hollow pipe and bends at half and quarter wavelengths to
make the electrons keep flowing. And then you have to track the
hole flow backwards, which is actually forwards.
What surprised me about Daniella's original post is that she
claimed to see infrared emitters as white. The reason film and
digi-cams see it as white is that the exposure is such that the
infrared light saturates the film or image sensor and it appears
white. I would expect the human eye to adjust and see the infrared
as a deep red color. In my iron example, if you ran the iron very
hot and turned out the lights, you might see the higher end of it's
spectrum as a dull red glow. With an electic stove, you can keep
cranking up the power and eventually the stove coils will appear
orange. If you could go further, they would eventually emit white
light. However, they'd probably burn out or melt before that
point. There are lots of such examples, but these illustrate where
I'm coming from
I am not sure on the exact frequencies and colors and rendering
oddities the eye performs. I do know, when camcorders first came
out and were 2500 bucks, I used to test suspect remotes by beaming
them into the lens,
worked great, cant rember if it was red or white because the
viewfinders were b/w and I can't remember what shades the dots
were. I never did record the beams to find out.

Oh yeah, the primary colors combined make white, correct??

Parker
--
Daniella
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=26918
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
C7OO FORUM: http://www.c700uz.com
c7OOuz, Dimage-7, Tcon14tele, C210tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND,
Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya R72.
--
Daniella
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=26918
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
C7OO FORUM: http://www.c700uz.com

c7OOuz, Dimage-7, Tcon14tele, C210tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND, Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya R72.
 
I was curious to know if anyone else can see this?
I don't have a filter to experiment with but perhaps I can shed some light on the isssue. First understand that the IR light your camera senses is what's called "near IR". It's called this because it's frequency/wavelength is close to that of the light we can see and call red. This near IR is not emitted by warm bodies like the mid or far IR is. To see something in the near IR you need a source of IR light, like the sun, or the IR LED on your remote control, to generate the near IR light to reflect off the subject you're viewing.

Warm/hot bodies (pretty much anything above absolute zero temp) will give off light in the mid and far IR wavelengths and this is what many of the military thermal imaging* systems use. Think of everything warm as being a light bulb giving off this IR so you don't need another source to be the "flashlight" for these wavelengths.

What I think you're seeing throught the filter is a very much reduced level of red (and shorter wavelength) light, the stuff we normally see. No filter is perfect , in that it'll allow only the wavelengths "desired" and completely stop all the light that is "undesired". Some of the undesired light makes it's way through the filter, just very much reduced in intensity. Given a really strong source there may still be enough to be seen by the human eye, at least by the sensors (rods or cones, I forget) that we use to see in dim light (we lose our color vision and see B&W).

FWIW - some of the night vision systems don't sense any IR light and are really light multiplier tubes. They amplify whatever dim, visible range, light is available (think of a microphone attached to an amp and then to a speaker with the volume turned way up). These are the ones that generally look green when you use them.

Hope this helps ..........
 
I don't think it's infrared light anymore. I think the fact that cutting the green light is enough to make the foliage look much lighter. could it be the case?

I cannot see the IR light from any remote, so no I cannot see IR light with my eye. But the effect by looking through the filter with your own eye is still there...I can see the vegetation turning from dark green to almost white or very light in color. Of course there is a red tint, but once your eye get use to it, you only notice the change in value (light/dark).
What surprised me about Daniella's original post is that she
claimed to see infrared emitters as white. The reason film and
digi-cams see it as white is that the exposure is such that the
infrared light saturates the film or image sensor and it appears
white. I would expect the human eye to adjust and see the infrared
as a deep red color. In my iron example, if you ran the iron very
hot and turned out the lights, you might see the higher end of it's
spectrum as a dull red glow. With an electic stove, you can keep
cranking up the power and eventually the stove coils will appear
orange. If you could go further, they would eventually emit white
light. However, they'd probably burn out or melt before that
point. There are lots of such examples, but these illustrate where
I'm coming from

Dewdrop
--
Daniella
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=26918
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
C7OO FORUM: http://www.c700uz.com

c7OOuz, Dimage-7, Tcon14tele, C210tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND, Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya R72.
 
Julie from the Olympus forum tried her R72 filter and she also can
see the effect of white vegetation...

Could it be that the green light is what makes the foliage apparent
dark and when you cut the green light with a red filter, you are
cutting what makes the vegetation dark and it become light?
My brain is smoking now on how the visible change, is actually occuring. I would imagine the removal or adition of other spectrum colours does have a role to play. I am speculating you are correct. Sounds good at least. :)
that would explain why I can easily see the vegetation turning
white with my eye and the filter. Not sure if there is another
explanation, I am only speculating.
I am thinking, not 100% sure, that you are right in assuming this, I don't know what other factors could come into play to cause this effect since we are talking about viewing visible light ranges.
Anyway, I am not crazy...at least one other person did the test
with the same result as me :)
Oh no, you are nowhere near crazy, I don't know who would have doubted that this is the effect you getting on this test.

Parker
 
that it has to be the colour of the filter causing this. We used to do demonstrations in an early physics class about addition and subtraction of colours. This effect was similarily reproduced there using a projector and many sets of different colour filters and polarizers and uv's.

The more I think of it, it has to be due to the coloring of the lens.

Parker
 
What I think you're seeing throught the filter is a very much
reduced level of red (and shorter wavelength) light, the stuff we
normally see. No filter is perfect , in that it'll allow only the
wavelengths "desired" and completely stop all the light that is
"undesired".
some filter do stop all visible light. My R72 let some visible light trhough, mostly red light and a tiny bit of blue or magenta.

Some of the undesired light makes it's way through
the filter, just very much reduced in intensity. Given a really
strong source there may still be enough to be seen by the human
eye, at least by the sensors (rods or cones, I forget) that we use
to see in dim light (we lose our color vision and see B&W).
Oh the image is very clear and easy to see...what surprised me is to see the very dark vegetation turn very light when viewing through the filter. The sky also turn darker, not the clouds but the blue sky...it is very easy to evaluate how a scene would look captured by the camera CCD just by looking through the filter with your eye :)
FWIW - some of the night vision systems don't sense any IR light
and are really light multiplier tubes. They amplify whatever dim,
visible range, light is available (think of a microphone attached
to an amp and then to a speaker with the volume turned way up).
These are the ones that generally look green when you use them.
That is probably what the police uses...
Hope this helps ..........
--
Daniella
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=26918
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
C7OO FORUM: http://www.c700uz.com

c7OOuz, Dimage-7, Tcon14tele, C210tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND, Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya R72.
 
this uses an illuminator:

http://www.night-vision-gear.com/
http://www.night-vision-gear.com/en-us/dept_85.html

Night Quest 5000 (R) Similar to the Night Quest 5001, the
Generation 3 Night Quest 5000 goggles from ITT are designed with
durable military construction, built in IR illuminator, and
automatic high light cutoff.

they are also selling the IR flashlight.
Cool but, there are many systems, including one using a phototube, mentioned by a fellow in later in the thread, and that is one of the systems I was describing earlier. There are passive and active systems available depending on the functionalaity needed, I spent some time in the US Navy, we had IR binos, cameras and many others systems on the guided missle cruiser that I was an electroonics technician on. There are tons of systems available today. I did not repair these, someone else did, I worked on all of the communications gear on the ship in the HF frequency range and LF and VLF to talk to submarines and other ships and shore stations and planes, also broadcast all of the ships targets to another ship in 60ms.

People alwas wanted to look throught the ir stuff, or the big eyes!!

.
 
Are you actually saying that plants are incandescent? When they are not burning?

Confused,

Pete
Depending on the sensitivity range of the red pixels on a CCD, you
could probably take an infrared photo in pitch darkness, although
it might be a very long exposure - maybe you could run that
experiment and let us know?

I'm also guessing that that is one reason why there is more noise
on a CCD when it is hot....
"Our eyes only see the tiny fraction of energy emitted by the sun
in the form of visible light. However, if we could see the infrared
rays emitted by all bodies--organic and inorganic--we could
effectively see in the dark."

we cannot see infrared light unless there is some source of IR
light first...in the dark, there is no source of IR so how can this
statement be true?
--
Daniella
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=26918
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
C7OO FORUM: http://www.c700uz.com
c7OOuz, Dimage-7, Tcon14tele, C210tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND,
Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya R72.
 

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