F300 - Sadly sending it back... these photos show why

i noticed that the flash range on the 3030 is almost double that
on the f300.
Tony, you know what's both fascinating and frustrating? I can't find the flash specs for the F300 anywhere! Not on Minolta's F300 page, not even in my manual, where they list every other possible spec.

Here's info on my old Olympus:

http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/cpg_product.asp?p=&bc=&product=661&fl=4
And here's the flash range listed:
  • Wide: approx. 0.8 – 5.6 m
  • Tele: approx. 0.2 – 3.8 m (ISO 100)
From what I remember hearing about the F300, this would suggest definitely a longer flash range, though.
 
I own a D7i and can't seem to find a review on the F300 anywhere
but I have a question: Does the F300 have a choice between ADI and
TTL flash metering?
Not many reviews yet. There's one on http://www.Epinions.com and another at http://www.megapixel.net . Jeff at http://www.dcresource.com/ mentioned that he'll have one up later this week.

To my knowledge, the F300 does not offer a choice of flash metering, only flash exposure settings.
As far as the blue channel noise, what is your WB setting? Use
daylight and you will see an improvement, may not be much but
anything is better than nothing.
WB setting was on automatic.
Can you set a custom WB with that camera? If so do it with the
flash active and you will see another improvement.
Yes, you can set (and store as a preset) a custom wb.
Hope this helps!
Thanks! :)
 
It seems that the photos that are really underexposed all have an
object in them that the flash reflected off of (flash hotspot if u
will). That will always fool the camera into thinking it is
overexposing the shot and back down the flash power.
Interesting! I hadn't noticed that. It's unfortunate that the camera seems so easily fooled, though.
Also try increasing flash compensation (if the camera has it).
Yes, it does. Haven't tried it yet.
I hate to say it, but it was MUCH easier shooting with my Canon
S100 (2.2mp) in the club setting than the D7i!!!! Good shots
everytime - but flash power was really really low, 10 ft at the
max!!
I've thought about the Canon S400, but from what I hear, the flash on that is really weak, too, and in fact, one of the few things complained about on the camera.

However, from what I'm noticing on my F300, there are TWO problems: poor flash (both in terms of reach and calculations) and also high grain/noise at F200... higher than my old 3.3mp digicam. I'm wondering if the S400 would perform better. I can always boost contrast/brightness a bit in Photoshop afterwards (though as I noted earlier, this annoys me), but I can't as easily smooth over high grain / high noise photos.
 
I'm not sure of many digicams in this range that will handle low light situations very well. I just played with my 7hi at a wedding, very dark reception hall, lots of movement. I was using A priority, but even then I wasn't getting the shots. I had to go to full manual. Had to bump the ISO up to 400, and use manual focus. Still needed an external flash.....you can't expect ANY onboard flash to do what you need it to do. Adam, you may be expecting to much out of this level of camera.

B
It seems that the photos that are really underexposed all have an
object in them that the flash reflected off of (flash hotspot if u
will). That will always fool the camera into thinking it is
overexposing the shot and back down the flash power.

Again I really had a hard time shooting nightclubs with my D7i
until I took the camera out of auto mode and payed more attention.

Also try increasing flash compensation (if the camera has it).

I hate to say it, but it was MUCH easier shooting with my Canon
S100 (2.2mp) in the club setting than the D7i!!!! Good shots
everytime - but flash power was really really low, 10 ft at the
max!!
--
http://www.pbase.com/brivers
 
I'm not sure of many digicams in this range that will handle low
light situations very well. I just played with my 7hi at a
wedding, very dark reception hall, lots of movement. I was using A
priority, but even then I wasn't getting the shots. I had to go to
full manual. Had to bump the ISO up to 400, and use manual focus.
Still needed an external flash.....you can't expect ANY onboard
flash to do what you need it to do. Adam, you may be expecting to
much out of this level of camera.
B, I think you're right... it's very clear that I expected too much, especially incorrectly assuming I could point-and-shoot my way to fine photos in automatic mode in more dimly lit settings.

But here's what's really vexing me: Say I switch into manual mode, boost the flash ev, change the ISO to 400... aren't I liable to get a TON of graininess and noise, considering that there was already more than I wanted at ISO 200?
 
Adam Lasnik wrote:
[snip]
However, from what I'm noticing on my F300, there are TWO problems:
poor flash (both in terms of reach and calculations) and also high
grain/noise at F200... higher than my old 3.3mp digicam. I'm
wondering if the S400 would perform better. I can always boost
contrast/brightness a bit in Photoshop afterwards (though as I
noted earlier, this annoys me), but I can't as easily smooth over
high grain / high noise photos.
Again, IMO the noise is pretty much what you'd expect from a 5MP digicam at ISO200. Lower megapixels -> less noise. More MP -> smaller photosites -> less sensitivity -> more noise.

Have you tried downsampling the pictures to 3.3 MP? This should reduce the noise considerably, and would give you a fair comparison. How do they compare when you print them?

Petteri
--
Portfolio: http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
Photo lessons: http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/
Lessons mirror: http://www.ivydesign.com/petteri/
 
Again, IMO the noise is pretty much what you'd expect from a 5MP
digicam at ISO200. Lower megapixels -> less noise. More MP ->
smaller photosites -> less sensitivity -> more noise.

Have you tried downsampling the pictures to 3.3 MP? This should
reduce the noise considerably, and would give you a fair
comparison. How do they compare when you print them?
Haven't tried printing them yet, but in downsampling, they definitely do look better, although still not as sharp as I'd like, nor as good as my old 3.3mp camera.

So, given that I can't reliably shoot indoors with acceptable results (for me) without downsampling, I'm leaning towards buying a used Olympus C4040 or similar camera... giving up the size advantage of my F300... and once again enjoying greater ease of decently-lit indoor photography.

This has, of course, all been an excellent lesson for me, and I have appreciated all of the info and patience from this group :)
 
Ok here we go, here are some photos in different scenes, that is indoor as well as outside, all with dimage F300:

http://www.pbase.com/ambrosed/flashtest

I think the outdoor test is more what you had in the disco, still amazed though that your photos at point blank and with background walls weren't good at all.

All photos at 5mp, livingroom lit by tv and the other room completly, almost, black.

Outside dimly lit, wasn't able to find a place where totaly dark, the tree pictures are a bit darker though then the wall, should have taken pictures of my car but the parking lot were lightened quite well, still not very much though :)

Suprislingly it locked at all inside pictures and the wall as well, not the tree though and I now from using it that even when not dark taking pictures of family etc. it can be red, unlocked, quite some times.

I'll let others speculate but as espected with light as long as it has walls to bounch at it does the job but without walls it's a whole different issue, slaveflash here we go...

SeYa/Ambrose... Cam F300 http://www.pbase.com/ambrosed/macros
I'm not sure of many digicams in this range that will handle low
light situations very well. I just played with my 7hi at a
wedding, very dark reception hall, lots of movement. I was using A
priority, but even then I wasn't getting the shots. I had to go to
full manual. Had to bump the ISO up to 400, and use manual focus.
Still needed an external flash.....you can't expect ANY onboard
flash to do what you need it to do. Adam, you may be expecting to
much out of this level of camera.
B, I think you're right... it's very clear that I expected too
much, especially incorrectly assuming I could point-and-shoot my
way to fine photos in automatic mode in more dimly lit settings.

But here's what's really vexing me: Say I switch into manual mode,
boost the flash ev, change the ISO to 400... aren't I liable to get
a TON of graininess and noise, considering that there was already
more than I wanted at ISO 200?
--
SeYa/Ambrose... Cam F300 http://www.pbase.com/ambrosed/macros
 
I'm a bit supriced also that the settings are the same for all photos, maybe I didn't have it totally automaticly after all?, at least the flash could change some I noticed in other shots.

SeYa/Ambrose...
http://www.pbase.com/ambrosed/flashtest

I think the outdoor test is more what you had in the disco, still
amazed though that your photos at point blank and with background
walls weren't good at all.

All photos at 5mp, livingroom lit by tv and the other room
completly, almost, black.

Outside dimly lit, wasn't able to find a place where totaly dark,
the tree pictures are a bit darker though then the wall, should
have taken pictures of my car but the parking lot were lightened
quite well, still not very much though :)

Suprislingly it locked at all inside pictures and the wall as well,
not the tree though and I now from using it that even when not dark
taking pictures of family etc. it can be red, unlocked, quite some
times.

I'll let others speculate but as espected with light as long as it
has walls to bounch at it does the job but without walls it's a
whole different issue, slaveflash here we go...

SeYa/Ambrose... Cam F300 http://www.pbase.com/ambrosed/macros
I'm not sure of many digicams in this range that will handle low
light situations very well. I just played with my 7hi at a
wedding, very dark reception hall, lots of movement. I was using A
priority, but even then I wasn't getting the shots. I had to go to
full manual. Had to bump the ISO up to 400, and use manual focus.
Still needed an external flash.....you can't expect ANY onboard
flash to do what you need it to do. Adam, you may be expecting to
much out of this level of camera.
B, I think you're right... it's very clear that I expected too
much, especially incorrectly assuming I could point-and-shoot my
way to fine photos in automatic mode in more dimly lit settings.

But here's what's really vexing me: Say I switch into manual mode,
boost the flash ev, change the ISO to 400... aren't I liable to get
a TON of graininess and noise, considering that there was already
more than I wanted at ISO 200?
--
SeYa/Ambrose... Cam F300 http://www.pbase.com/ambrosed/macros
--
SeYa/Ambrose... Cam F300 http://www.pbase.com/ambrosed/macros
 
Ambrose,

Thanks for sharing all those photos!

I do feel bad in saying that even your indoor ones are not sharp enough for me to keep this camera. They look quite nice downsampled... but that defeats the purpose of getting a 5mp camera, IMHO. And yes, it seems that I am just, perhaps, too picky.

I will be sending back the camera tomorrow... possibly exchanging it for a different type of camera, or perhaps just getting my money back and waiting another six months until there is a camera that meets my interest.

Regards,
Adam
 
. . .
Hmm... maybe I'm just spoiled by my older but larger 3.3mp Olympus
3030z camera :~
. . .
The 3030z (and, I assume, others in that series) has an unusually strong flash. Chances are, at least when it comes to built-in flash, other cameras will disappoint you. I know... I used to have a 3030... ;-)
 
. . .
Hmm... maybe I'm just spoiled by my older but larger 3.3mp Olympus
3030z camera :~
. . .
The 3030z (and, I assume, others in that series) has an unusually
strong flash. Chances are, at least when it comes to built-in
flash, other cameras will disappoint you. I know... I used to
have a 3030... ;-)
Ah, wow, someone who intimately understands my nostalgia :D

My Olympus was stolen (along with 400 pictures on SM cards!) when I was staying in a hostel in Estonia this past summer, and I was just crushed! To my surprise, my insurance company paid me (a very fine value!) for the loss a few months later, but now I'm tortured with replacing the camera.

So many competing interests! I initially was absolutely set on having a pocketable camera, but now in better understanding the limitations, I'm deciding whether to just continue my 'relationship' with the Olympus line (like 4040z, since I can't afford the 5050z), or to explore other fine brands (including, of course, Minolta cameras! :)
 
I share your discouragement over the lack of quality in these photo's. I think the flash is particularly weak on the F100, and based on samples I've seen, there is more noise in the Minolta camera than in others (or at least the type of noise, that red mottling, is more bugsome). It also seems to be 'softer' than other cameras, which doesn't help the apparent focus issues in these shots either. I will say that at the time I bought the F100 back in October 2002, I got the best available for my money. At $350, as opposed to at least $500 for competitors, I can't complain too much, particularly since I don't take many low light photos. However, there have been a number of cameras out since then which should be significantly better, including the Oly C50z, Canon S50. The one that piques my interest is the Canon S400 due to its really small size and apparently good image quality.
 
Adam,

every single shot you have uploaded is out of focus, not one is in focus. yes they are all also underexposed but the camera can't expose the shot correctly if it can't focus correctly.

my guess is that maybe you have a camera with a focusing problem.

john
 
Just repósting as it's kind of barried within this thread :)

I'm a bit supriced also that the settings are the same for all photos, maybe I didn't have it totally automaticly after all?, at least the flash could change some I noticed in other shots.

SeYa/Ambrose...
Ok here we go, here are some photos in different scenes, that is
indoor as well as outside, all with dimage F300:

http://www.pbase.com/ambrosed/flashtest

I think the outdoor test is more what you had in the disco, still
amazed though that your photos at point blank and with background
walls weren't good at all.

All photos at 5mp, livingroom lit by tv and the other room
completly, almost, black.

Outside dimly lit, wasn't able to find a place where totaly dark,
the tree pictures are a bit darker though then the wall, should
have taken pictures of my car but the parking lot were lightened
quite well, still not very much though :)

Suprislingly it locked at all inside pictures and the wall as well,
not the tree though and I now from using it that even when not dark
taking pictures of family etc. it can be red, unlocked, quite some
times.

I'll let others speculate but as espected with light as long as it
has walls to bounch at it does the job but without walls it's a
whole different issue, slaveflash here we go...

SeYa/Ambrose... Cam F300 http://www.pbase.com/ambrosed/macros
Adam,

every single shot you have uploaded is out of focus, not one is in
focus. yes they are all also underexposed but the camera can't
expose the shot correctly if it can't focus correctly.

my guess is that maybe you have a camera with a focusing problem.

john
--
SeYa/Ambrose... Cam F300 http://www.pbase.com/ambrosed/macros
 
These pics are horrible. Not one pic is in focus. I think there's something wrong with the CCD, AF or something else, but I don't think it's normal.
 
These pics are horrible. Not one pic is in focus. I think there's
something wrong with the CCD, AF or something else, but I don't
think it's normal.
That would be my assumption, too, except that I think the camera seems to have focused decently in these examples:
http://smilezone.fotki.com/minoltaf300/indoor_dance/ (2MP setting)
http://smilezone.fotki.com/minoltaf300/macro/ (5MP setting)

And also, I've yet to see any examples of sharp/low-noise 5MP indoor shots.

I'm inclined to think, therefore, that my camera is NOT defective, but rather that I've tried to push it beyond the limitations of its small 5MP CCD and ultra-compact-limited AF capabilities.
 
Adam Lasnik wrote:
[snip]
I'm inclined to think, therefore, that my camera is NOT defective,
but rather that I've tried to push it beyond the limitations of its
small 5MP CCD and ultra-compact-limited AF capabilities.
I'm inclined to think that too, although the underexposure does look a bit mysterious. In your shoes, I'd do a controlled test in a darkened room with a subject placed at different distances, to see how the flash meters and how far it reaches.

Petteri
--
Portfolio: http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
Photo lessons: http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/
Lessons mirror: http://www.ivydesign.com/petteri/
 
Adam

I've been taking another look at your pics and the only ones that seem in focus are the two with the yellow rose and the peanut glass, although in second pic it seems camera focusing on edge of glass, but anyway.

I own Canon S45 (had Canon S30 before) and are not happy with AF in low light. But even ISO 400 P mode shots in dim light and camera shake warning, but with shutter faster than 1s (no noise reduction from camera) are nowhere as bad and out of focus as your pics.

Even my crappy $50 Benq DC1300 1.3PM CMOS joke camera with plastic lens takes better pictures than your F300. So I really think something with your camera has to be wrong.
 
Adam,

I do think there is a possibility that your camera is defective.

I have an F100....
  • Most of the time my indoor/low light photographs are up to my expectations (or better)
  • Where the photos meet my expectations, the camera has selected an ISO of between 100 and 122 (in the examples I have checked.
  • Where my camera lets me down is when the I have manually set the ISO higher than 200 (I've never set it to 200 - I'm trying to get a faster shutter speed where subject ismoving)).
As your camera seems to be selecting an ISO of 200, and is underexposing, it looks like it isn't getting the flash power that it should be.

Backing this up - in my photographs, walls to the rear show a distinct subject shadow from the flash (even where wall is > 40 feet away). Your photographs do not have this shadow effect.

I do not have high expectations for flash photography > 15 feet with the F100 - hence I intend to buy a slave Flash, which I will only "lug" for "special" events.

Hope this helps!

Leslie
 

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