image causing a "stir"??

Kbone · Mar 27, 2003

NormanLE said:
Well, your opinion. In my eyes, what you're saying is a the typical
poor explanation for americans why the whole world is against your
(better your government's) plans in the middle east. Man, open your
eyes! The Europeans and Russia don't want to be involved into war,
because they know the intense situation in the middle east and can
judge it! Additionally, they have fought the cruelest wars and
learned from history what went wrong. America doesn't seem do to so.

Norman,

First, the "whole world" is most certainly not against us. The US has assembled a coalition of about 50 nations that are in favor of what we are doing. The fact that a few countries that happen to be on the UN Security Council at the moment can't agree to enforce the resolution that they unanimously agreed on a few months ago simply means that they have buckled under to France's bullying threat to use a veto they should not even have.

Secondly, if we were to sit around and wait for the whole damn world to agree on anything we'd be twiddling our thumbs until doomsday. The United States is acting in a manner that is designed to destroy the network of terrorists and the nations that support them under the table. We are a sovereign nation and don't have to answer to you or anyone else.

Your assertion that Europe and Russia have learned the lessons of history better than the United States and don't want to repeat them is absolutely laughable. Apparently you have not learned that appeasment is no way to deal with an aggressive dictator. WWII could have been avoided altogether if Europe had listened to Winston Churchill instead of Neville Chamberlain in the 1930s. Thank God the UK has a PM today with enough brains and backbone to do what is right.

A large majority of Americans simply don't care what a bunch of whiny Frenchmen or lying Russians think. They, like the murderous terrorists they would give a pass to are NEVER gpoing to love the United States. That's fine. But they will fear us and that will do.
-Kbone
--
'The French: They're Always There When They Need You'

Canon D60, BG-ED3, 50mm f/1.8, 28-135mm IS/USM, 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro, 420EX, Alien Bees monolights, Sekonic L358 flash meter, Sunpak PZ5000AF, Epson 2200
See some of my photographs at:
http://pages.cthome.net/cassella/index.htm

Rprade · Mar 27, 2003

Andreas Steiner said:
Yes, exactly. Now you probably understand why the rest of the world
was against an unilateral US aggression that will create more
terrorism.
Another concern is that Iraq would not be a top priority if
terrorism would be the real concern. You do not have to dig deep to
understand that Saddam Hussein has nothing to do with Bin Laden,
respectively the kind of terrorism that is a real security risk for
US citizens at home and abroad.

Andi

--
http://www.andreassteiner.net/photography

Thomas Gardner · Mar 27, 2003

NormanLE said:
Well, your opinion.

It's not an opinion but a fact. This fact is public knowledge. There was a missed point, Germany is also in this business frenzy. Why? Because the US won't sell this technology to Iraq so France, Germany, Russia and China all made sure that Saddam would have this technology. You don't think the billions that business's earn, don't affect local politicos?

NormanLE said:
In my eyes, what you're saying is a the typical
poor explanation for americans why the whole world is against your
(better your government's) plans in the middle east. Man, open your
eyes! The Europeans and Russia don't want to be involved into war,
because they know the intense situation in the middle east and can
judge it!

Okay, you're not in a war. Now sit down, shut up and let us finish the war we're in. Ya got what you wanted.

There is no intense situation in the Middle East. They're are a bunch of self-centered, immature types in the Middle Eastern nations that don't want the common people to have power. There are a bunch of small mined people in charge that make sure the people of the Middle East won't have a chance of a little bit of the good life.

Let's see, Saddam has a hundred palaces while 60% of the population is dependent upon the government for food and water. Yepper, just a generous soul he is.

NormanLE said:
NormanLE said:

As a European, you would not be around if it was not for the United
States protecting your a$$ in the past, present and future. You
hear the phrase "bit the hand that feeds you" ?? I think in your
case its "bite the hand that protects you"... How ungratefull can
you be?

Click to expand...

Thats the most arrogant phrase i heard for months!

If the US had pulled out of Europe and thought just of itself, all of Europe would be speaking either German or Russian. Sorry, not arrogant, just the naked truth.

NormanLE said:
Yes, America is a great and powerful country. But you think you
know everything whats going on in the world and know how to fix it

and that's terribly wrong!

We don't think we know everything but we do know that you have to either fish or cut bait. Both need to be done to get a fish into the boat. That's more then we can say about Europeans.

Larry H. Smith · Mar 27, 2003

Andreas Steiner said:
You're more the Axis-Of-Evil type-of-guy, cowboy, right (nt)

If that was a question, my answer is "No."

Perhaps "pigeon-holing" is important to (and convenient-for) you.

You seem willing to draw a pretty broad conclusion from a narrow observation.

Why not simply take my post for what it was, ...a satirical suggestion that if influencing Saddam is the goal,... "brains and conscience'"as "weapons" is a pipe-dream.

Re. "America's decision": There are reasons-in-support-of, and reasons-in-opposition-to, the action's GB has "decided for us" to take.

(I personally was not asked, any more than you were. Had I been, it would have been a very difficult decision.)

As an American statesman has noted, this action entails a tremendous gamble.

Others have noted the tremendous gamble involved in IN-action.

The stakes are high, ...our president(with Blair) has thrown the dice.

The well-intended citiizens on both sides of the issue in America are all VERY glad that we are on the side we are on, now that the war is a fact.

Apart from the ill-informed or misguided, ...I find it hard to imagine that any "decent' citizens in Iraq would prefer to continue "life-under-Saddam".

The fact that there are those willing to fight for that sadist (or equally-as-often afraid NOT to) only points out that his brutality and corruption has rewarded thugs-of-a-feather, who all know that Saddam's end is THEIR end!

Good riddance to them all!

FWIW, ...no one I know supports any "occupation' as-such, nor "oil" as a justifying element for this action.

If this indeed turns-out to be what is behind-the-scenes of our president's decision, you will see a HUGE number of those Americans who now support him, withdraw that support.

We citizens in the street can only HOPE GB means what he is saying.

But we KNOW WE mean what he is saying!

Best wishes,

Larry

Kbone · Mar 27, 2003

Andreas Steiner said:
Member said:

Words fail against evil. We must kill it.

Click to expand...

...it is exactly this kind of thinking that as I said is rocking
the foundations of civilized Western society. I am deeply ashamed
of you.

Andi

Andi,

Stop with the condescending bullcr*p tone of voice, ok? Nobody cares here in America if you like us or are ashamed of us. The United States and Great Britain et al are the best visible hope for the very SURVIVAL of western civilization. Now go fiddle while Rome burns.
-Kbone

--
'The French: They're Always There When They Need You'

Canon D60, BG-ED3, 50mm f/1.8, 28-135mm IS/USM, 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro, 420EX, Alien Bees monolights, Sekonic L358 flash meter, Sunpak PZ5000AF, Epson 2200
See some of my photographs at:
http://pages.cthome.net/cassella/index.htm

Thomas Gardner · Mar 27, 2003

As opposed to the do nothing clan of Europeans?

Call me a cowboy.

murphy · Mar 27, 2003

NormanLE said:
Murphy said:

The only reason, and I will say that again for you, "THE ONLY
REASON", Bush was not able to get everyone on the bandwagon to
support him is because of large companies in France and Russia who
are selling Saddam big ticket items and making huge profit from
it.. The leaders of these counties would be politicaly doomed if
they went against all thier industry leaders. And when industry
leaders are making millions and billions off of profit from sales
(mostly illegal sales) to Iraq, they will not care who dies or
why.. They want thier money and that's all they care about.

Click to expand...

Well, your opinion. In my eyes, what you're saying is a the typical
poor explanation for americans why the whole world is against your
(better your government's) plans in the middle east. Man, open your
eyes!

Your arguement makes no sense here.. Who said anything about the "whole world" being against anything? Why would you introduce such a statement into this conversation.?

NormanLE said:
The Europeans and Russia don't want to be involved into war,
because they know the intense situation in the middle east and can
judge it!

What intense situation ? here again is a statement that is completely irrelevent. If Russia doesnt want to be involved, why are they selling military applications to them??? Hello? Is the oxygen flowing to your brain ok?

As far as the French, the world knows what France does when it comes to war so I will leave this one alone.

NormanLE said:
Additionally, they have fought the cruelest wars and
learned from history what went wrong. America doesn't seem do to so.

America has learned allot from past wars.. Good and bad.. But it makes no difference to us. We will fight to defend freedom and human rights. If you have a problem with freedom or you like to kill and torture innocent people, be patient, we'll get around to you..

NormanLE said:
NormanLE said:

As a European, you would not be around if it was not for the United
States protecting your a$$ in the past, present and future. You
hear the phrase "bit the hand that feeds you" ?? I think in your
case its "bite the hand that protects you"... How ungratefull can
you be?

Click to expand...

Thats the most arrogant phrase i heard for months!

That's the most ungratefull attitude i heard for months!

NormanLE said:
NormanLE said:

Do you know what Americans are???? We are you!!!!! So when you
decide to bad mouth us,, just remember, we are you.. we are made
up of all of you.. and we are great because of it..

Click to expand...

Yes, America is a great and powerful country. But you think you
know everything whats going on in the world and know how to fix it

and that's terribly wrong!

I take it that when you say "you think you know everything", you are refering to Americans in general and not "Murphy" in Dpreview.

No.. As Americans we do not know everything. We know only what the rest of the world knows. We know everything the rest of the world knows because we are made up of the rest of the world.

I respect your opinion of not wanting war.. I even understand it.. Believe me I do and part of me feels the same way as you.. But I remember being beat up when I was a child by older kids for no reason that I could figure out. (they were just mean).. I was very gratefull when another large kid protected me.... So I find myself thinking "what if I had to live in fear like that now in my adult life"... .What would I do?? How would I feel..

If you know of the things Saddam does and has done in the past, then I do not understand how it is you could agree to let him continue..

Murphy

Thomas Gardner · Mar 27, 2003

Andreas Steiner said:
Member said:

Words fail against evil. We must kill it.

Click to expand...

...it is exactly this kind of thinking that as I said is rocking
the foundations of civilized Western society. I am deeply ashamed
of you.

No foundations are being rocked. Where do you get this nonsense.

Saddam is going to be kicked out of his position of power, dead or alive, it doesn't matter.

The Iraqi's are going to be freed and not a feather is going to be mused on the heads of any European.

You being ashamed, means we're doing the right thing.

FUCK DPREVIEW!! · Mar 27, 2003

Larry H. Smith said:
Why not simply take my post for what it was, ...a satirical
suggestion that if influencing Saddam is the goal,... "brains and
conscience'"as "weapons" is a pipe-dream.

Point taken and understood. I think it misses the point, but that's just me.

Andi

Ken Phillips · Mar 27, 2003

... Saddam is a good man. You can believe anything he says. He loves the Jewish people. He loves all of America. He had no weapons of mass destruction then, and he has none now. He isn't torturing or killing our POWs. The video tape of him having some of his gov't members executed must have been faked. His 'journey' into Kuwait a dozen years back must have been accidental.
Nice Saddam.
Don't kill evil people ... talk nice with them, and all will be well.
You win.
Ken

--

29 lbs. of Canon stuff in a backpack that I carry everywhere. A closet full of things that are banned in Britain. A minivan and a Fender Stratocaster. A three bedroom ranch with three owls on an acre. An aversion to rumours. Also, absolutely no Canon 1200mm f/5.6. Yet.

Tonye53 · Mar 27, 2003

Andreas Steiner said:
Member said:

...one should choose the right weapons for this fight.
this is IMO the brain and conscience, not guns!

Click to expand...

Exactly. Especially a "war against terrorism" would require a lot
of brains and credibility.

Member said:

i especially can
not understand the reason for the war in iraq...

Click to expand...

I do, but I do not understand why the US was not able to get
international support. As somebody else formulated it: "It takes a
real idiot to loose a popularity contest against Saddam Hussein"
...and Bush exactly managed to do that.

There are a lot of irrelavent countries that participate in the ineffective, irrelavent debating society called the UN that are jealous of the US -- that is why!

Member said:
Lying, violating international law, disrespecting the international
community and acting as the aggressotr does not create the
creditbility needed in a war against international terrorism, it
will only create more violence - "eye for eye until the whole world
goes blind". The monsterous arrogance and aggression preached and
practised by the Bush administration rocks the very foundations of
what we call "civilised" in the Western Hemishpeare.
Even as a European, I'm ashamed.

Member said:

I love the 10D!

Click to expand...

Me too! ...just to get back on topic again...

The 10D is cool but I still like my D60!!

Member said:
Andi

--
http://www.andreassteiner.net/photography

murphy · Mar 27, 2003

NormanLE said:
well, I agree with you that one has to fight for freedom every
simgle day, but one should choose the right weapons for this fight.
this is IMO the brain and conscience, not guns! i especially can
not understand the reason for the war in iraq, because it's almost
the antipode to the US - iraq never could attack them. but...

Hitler could not attack us either....

But that didnt stop us from defending freedom...

Murphy

NormanLE · Mar 27, 2003

Kbone,

Kbone said:
First, the "whole world" is most certainly not against us. The US
has assembled a coalition of about 50 nations that are in favor of
what we are doing.

Yes, after the US has (e.g.) illegally observed 7 economically poor states of africa in the security council and giving them billions of dollars to vote for the US's plans. Nice and honorable actions, don't you think? The US is BUYING it's friends. 14 of those states which are in favor for the US don't want to be mentioned in any press of the world. Why?

Kbone said:
Secondly, if we were to sit around and wait for the whole damn
world to agree on anything we'd be twiddling our thumbs until
doomsday. The United States is acting in a manner that is designed
to destroy the network of terrorists and the nations that support
them under the table. We are a sovereign nation and don't have to
answer to you or anyone else.

You are a sovereign nation, yes, but why don't you (your government) respect the deciscion of other sovereign states like the European states not to join the war? I think that's a great loss of sovereignity: just getting insulted.

Kbone said:
A large majority of Americans simply don't care what a bunch of
whiny Frenchmen or lying Russians think. They, like the murderous
terrorists they would give a pass to are NEVER gpoing to love the
United States. That's fine. But they will fear us and that will do.

That says a lot: everything your country can bring to the world is ... fear.
Great, world-healing America.

Thomas Gardner · Mar 27, 2003

NormanLE said:
Yes, after the US has (e.g.) illegally observed 7 economically poor
states of africa in the security council and giving them billions
of dollars to vote for the US's plans. Nice and honorable actions,
don't you think? The US is BUYING it's friends. 14 of those states
which are in favor for the US don't want to be mentioned in any
press of the world. Why?

Aaaaaah, what fourteen nations are these?

FUCK DPREVIEW!! · Mar 27, 2003

Ken Phillips said:
... Saddam is a good man.

That's not what the UN discussed, that's not what people are protesting about on the street and that's not what I'm saying. Being against the current US administration (especially their Foreign Policy) has absolutely nothing to do with liking Saddam Hussein. Rejecting violence as a mean to solve conflicts (=the pacifist stance) also has nothing to do with that.

Looks like that line of thinking is already to delicate for certain people here.

Andi

Thomas Gardner · Mar 27, 2003

NormanLE said:
You are a sovereign nation, yes, but why don't you (your
government) respect the deciscion of other sovereign states like
the European states not to join the war? I think that's a great
loss of sovereignity: just getting insulted.

If your nation or others don't want to join the fray, that's cool. Nobody is upset about that but don't condemmn us because we're not afraid to get our hands dirty.

There's a good reason why the US is at the top of the heap, we've earned the right and we have no intention on stepping down. Does that bother you. Do you think that your country deserves to be at the top of the heap?

NormanLE said:
NormanLE said:

A large majority of Americans simply don't care what a bunch of
whiny Frenchmen or lying Russians think. They, like the murderous
terrorists they would give a pass to are NEVER gpoing to love the
United States. That's fine. But they will fear us and that will do.

Click to expand...

That says a lot: everything your country can bring to the world is
... fear.
Great, world-healing America.

That's it, you're afraid of us. What nonsense. Leave us alone and we won't come looking for you. Mess with us and we'll finish the job. It's not real hard to comprehend.

FUCK DPREVIEW!! · Mar 27, 2003

murphy said:
Hitler could not attack us either....
But that didnt stop us from defending freedom...

I'm shocked by the very low level of knowledge in history of a lot of US posters here. Is this what they teach you in school in the US?

Andi

Thomas Gardner · Mar 27, 2003

Andreas Steiner said:
Member said:

... Saddam is a good man.

Click to expand...

That's not what the UN discussed, that's not what people are
protesting about on the street and that's not what I'm saying.
Being against the current US administration (especially their
Foreign Policy) has absolutely nothing to do with liking Saddam
Hussein. Rejecting violence as a mean to solve conflicts (=the
pacifist stance) also has nothing to do with that.

Sure it does. You just don't want to see the truth. That's fine. It's okay, now let people who care get the job done.

You had your chance to whine.

FUCK DPREVIEW!! · Mar 27, 2003

Tonye53 said:
There are a lot of irrelavent countries that participate in the
ineffective, irrelavent debating society called the UN that are
jealous of the US -- that is why!

I'm shocked by the very low level of knowledge in history AND politics of a lot of US posters here. Is this what they teach you in school in the US?

Serious suggestions: Read up on the history of the UN - quickly...

Andi

Thomas Gardner · Mar 27, 2003

Andreas Steiner said:
Member said:

Hitler could not attack us either....
But that didnt stop us from defending freedom...

Click to expand...

I'm shocked by the very low level of knowledge in history of a lot
of US posters here. Is this what they teach you in school in the US?

Whoooo boy! That's it, Americans are not being taught history. You just don't stop digging do you.

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