Pentax *ist D and EOS 10D -- Minolta killers?

Didn't Minolta and Konica merg?? I remember reading that somewhere....I'll bet that they will come out with an amateur DSLR soon....we'll have to see what happens this week.....if they don't, ABANDON SHIP!!!!!! :-)

JP

http://www.onemodelplace.com/photographer_list.cfm?P_ID=6108
Petteri,

I believe your analysis is 100% on the mark. Time for Minolta to
put out a new DSLR or make point and shoots only. With the new
developments in the DSLR market this week the whole prosumer market
will dissapear soon.
Another serious issue for Minolta is that their PnS's are somewhat
lackluster, compared to the competition. Their image processing
isn't optimized to maximize the appeal of the image out of the
camera: in this realm, especially Fuji and Canon are significantly
better than Minolta. Even with innovative designs like the DiMAGE
Xi they're going to have a very hard time competing with the big
names... more so, as the PnS market is less likely to do thorough
research, and therefore more likely to be attracted by a big name.
The whole future of Minolta cameras may hang in the balance.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
 
I'm being pessimistic for that very reason---I don't know the specs!!! There is no reason Pentax should be this far behind the curve at this point. It seems their announcement was rushed due to Canon's 10D announcement. Recall that 2 years ago Pentax made a similar non detailed announcement and that DSLR never made it to the market.

By the way, the shutter lag is unique to digital cameras and has no bearing on any parts it shares with its sister 35mm---and it is a very big deal if you take action or impromptu shots as I do. According to the review on this website, Canon's new 10D has considerably less shutter lag than the D60. Here, Pentax gives us no specs and we have nothing to compare it to.

My Pentax MZ-S (their flagship 35mm) does not have fast autofocusing either (relative to cameras in its class), so your claim that the *ist will focus very fast simply because it shares 35mm components doesn't hold much water. I've owned the PZ-1p prior to buying the MZ-S so I speak with great experience in this regard (7 years with my PZ-1P and 1 year with my MZ-S). Pentax's 35mm cameras are not known for fast autofocusing. I bought the MZ-S and the PZ-1P because their controls are easy and fast to use yet full featured.

--
Frank from Phoenix
Olympus E20N; C5050; FL40; LiPo; Pentax MZ-S
 
I'm being pessimistic for that very reason---I don't know the
specs!!! There is no reason Pentax should be this far behind the
curve at this point. It seems their announcement was rushed due to
Canon's 10D announcement. Recall that 2 years ago Pentax made a
similar non detailed announcement and that DSLR never made it to
the market.
I remember that. However, being the incurable optimist that I am, that makes me think that they may have learned a lesson there. Besides, that talk was a lot less detailed than this time round.
By the way, the shutter lag is unique to digital cameras and has no
bearing on any parts it shares with its sister 35mm---and it is a
very big deal if you take action or impromptu shots as I do.
According to the review on this website, Canon's new 10D has
considerably less shutter lag than the D60. Here, Pentax gives us
no specs and we have nothing to compare it to.
Not true for D-SLR's. You'd know this if you understood how they worked.
My Pentax MZ-S (their flagship 35mm) does not have fast
autofocusing either (relative to cameras in its class), so your
claim that the *ist will focus very fast simply because it shares
35mm components doesn't hold much water.
Even bad phase-detection AF is glorious compared to good contrast-detection AF. The D30 and D60 were slammed for their sub-par AF. The AF is sub-par -- for an SLR -- but compared to non-SLR digicams, it is stellar . You can't make a phase-detection AF that's actually bad: there's only good, very good, and superb.

While this may not be good enough for you, it will be good enough for most applications: even on the D30/D60, the AF becomes a limiting factor only in wildlife, sports, or other extermely fast-action photography.

[snip]

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
 
Polycarbonate SLR shells haven't been an issue for the past 15
years because they weren't digital---the metal bodies help
considerably with the noise factor---
What? But digitals are actually less noisy than film: no film wind mechanism! I can't parse this!
Canon went metal with the 10D
and lowered the price from the poly bodied D60--so price doesn't
seem to be a factor.
The fact that they're selling it for less doesn't mean that the body is cheaper to manufacture. It clearly isn't. Canon seems to have been able to cut costs in the electronics and digital department (as is expected), and rather than put all of those savings into dropping the price, they've put some of them into improving the camera side (better AF, metal body). Polycarbonate is less expensive, like it or not.
My Oly has a metal body specifically to
reduce noise (if you believe Oly's engineers). It's not as easy or
simple as you may think. But your right about Pentax pricing: My
35mm MZ-S was about 400 bucks less than the Nikon F100 (the MZ-S is
magnesium bodied too).
Do you do a lot of concert/wedding/funeral photography? Is silent operation a critical requirement for you? -- Do you think it is a critical requirement for most of the market, meaning, would the market be willing to pay, say, $100 more for a metal body? I'm not so sure.

Really, Frank -- I wonder a bit: you should be jumping with joy at having a digital option for your Pentax gear. I find it very bizarre that now that there's a real prospect of one, you go even more pessimistic, of all things griping that the body material is all wrong! How much would you be willing to pay for it, by the way?

Anyway, if the *ist is a success, you can be certain that Pentax will introduce other models. Once they've got one D-SLR under their belt, it'll be much easier to produce others. Including higher-end ones.

Petteri

(who prefers metal cameras too, but doesn't consider the feature of critical importance)
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
 
If Pentax intends to be anything other than an "also-ran," it'll
have to price the *ist D well below that. After all, while the
camera seems very good by the specs and beats the 10D in
portability at least, it can't match the build quality of the 10D's
all-metal body -- nor the attractiveness of Canon's superb lens
collection, or even the prestige of its name. So let's say the *ist
sells at $1200 or so.
The *ist D hasn't been released yet, so we don't know about the build quality nor the performance. Pentax shows early pre-production samples at the PMA-show. I believe that Pentax has some surprises hidden up their sleeve and in the summer, we'll know.

Pentax are working on a new lens range for the *ist D, and some of those lenses - tailor made for the D - will be released after the summer.
Minolta, if you want (more of) my money, time is running out for
you.
Yes, I believe this too.

Olympus professional release was a bit of a surprise. Sealed magnesium alloy body. Seems even better built than the D10.

Roland
 
Got your attention, no?

This is extremely bad news for Minolta. A moderately priced,
compact D-SLR or two could eliminate their main market at a stroke.
I don't agree 100%

I think there is still some interesting market share, if Minolta cuts down 7Hi's price.

If 7Hi will be proposed at (more or less) same current price of 7i, there will be a high quality prosumer camera at 900-1000 Euro.

For people upgrading from point&click world, the other choice is a D-SLR camera with at least one (better two) expensive zoom: very close to 2000 euro (if not even more).

Of course they cannot stay without a D-SLR proposal, but moving on 7Hi's price I think Minolta can keep the market at least till the end of this year.

--------------------------------------------
daniele borghi
http://www.casaborghi.it
 
If Pentax intends to be anything other than an "also-ran," it'll
have to price the *ist D well below that. After all, while the
camera seems very good by the specs and beats the 10D in
portability at least, it can't match the build quality of the 10D's
all-metal body -- nor the attractiveness of Canon's superb lens
collection, or even the prestige of its name. So let's say the *ist
sells at $1200 or so.
The *ist D hasn't been released yet, so we don't know about the
build quality nor the performance. Pentax shows early
pre-production samples at the PMA-show. I believe that Pentax has
some surprises hidden up their sleeve and in the summer, we'll know.
Yep. From the pictures posted on letsgodigital, though, the samples look pretty late pre-production to me. I got the impression from the text that they're fully functional, too, but Pentax had requested not to post samples, as the firmware isn't finished yet.
Pentax are working on a new lens range for the *ist D, and some of
those lenses - tailor made for the D - will be released after the
summer.
Really? That's very good news: it means that they're serious about targeting the "SLR virgin" market, not just people with existing Pentax glass.
Minolta, if you want (more of) my money, time is running out for
you.
Yes, I believe this too.
Olympus professional release was a bit of a surprise. Sealed
magnesium alloy body. Seems even better built than the D10.
I got to handle a D10 today, as a matter of fact. I was surprised at how light it was: there wasn't a whole lot of difference in feel to the polycarbonate D30/D60. Viewfinder was the same, too: clear and bright but small (compared to film SLR's). I was a tiny bit disappointed by that, to tell you the truth: "magnesium alloy" had led me to expect the rock-like feel of an E-10 (or EOS-1 to EOS-3, for that matter). It fit my hand perfectly though.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
 
dab63 wrote:
[snip]
Of course they cannot stay without a D-SLR proposal, but moving on
7Hi's price I think Minolta can keep the market at least till the
end of this year.
I've no doubt about that. It's 2004 and on that's got me really worried.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
 
Got your attention, no?

This is extremely bad news for Minolta. A moderately priced,
compact D-SLR or two could eliminate their main market at a stroke.
I don't agree 100%
I think there is still some interesting market share, if Minolta
cuts down 7Hi's price.
If 7Hi will be proposed at (more or less) same current price of 7i,
there will be a high quality prosumer camera at 900-1000 Euro.
For people upgrading from point&click world, the other choice is a
D-SLR camera with at least one (better two) expensive zoom: very
close to 2000 euro (if not even more).
Of course they cannot stay without a D-SLR proposal, but moving on
7Hi's price I think Minolta can keep the market at least till the
end of this year.
I can't find the 7Hi for anything less that the MSRP of $1299 US. The 7i is readily available for $650 or less at dozens of reputable dealers on the web.

Minolta is going to have to drop the price of the Hi like a rock before I personally would be interested. I mean jeeze....pony up a couple hundred more for the Canon 10D body and add a decent zoom and viola' we have a REAL DSLR. At $1300 I think I'd be throwing good money into trying to keep a dinosaur alive. If Minolta sees fit not to bring out a DSLR this year,
2004 is going to be a very, very tough year for them.
 
In fact it is ..... neither Konica and Minolta are really strong in the digital front. Konica can't even come up with a decent p&S digital body IMHO. Now Minolta, at the very least had experience here and some of the core software / electronic / R&D are already there. Get you wonder right, Why can'y they just drop the digital part into the Dynax/MAxxum/Alpha-7 body, even a half hearted approach is better than no effort put forth. May be even an updated RD-3000 body with just a plain CCD.

While Canon EOS-10D seems enticing. I think the Pentax *ist-D is even more damaging. Cause there's where all the serious hobbyist are, and many of them cannot afford going to the Canon ( the EF lens range are not cheap ) but the Pentax body can take lens all the way back to the K range, and that means right away it open itself up to all sorts of film based user even MF users. Smart move indeed for Pentax. Besides, Minolta and Pentax are really more in the same market segment.

Even Olympus is smart enough to know that even if the 4/3 system is not ready. They got to show something to keep the customers around. Here ;lies the most important marketing blunder of Minolta. Hey even if you are not ready with something. You still need to get your customer some hope of something coming out of somewhere sometime. Minolta is not even doing that.

If I am not hearing them with something soon. I am going to start selling off my Minolta , both MF & AF, and only keep a basic setup. Better finance my going to a decent digital setup, well not yet a DSLR, but the Photoshop and a New Mac .... well might be even going to Medium format

READ US, MINOLTA, better get going soon or you might as well pack your bag....

Franka
 
I'm new here but a long time Pentax user, your MZ-S isn't fast as compared to what camera? It's AF speed with similar lens is faster than the F100, Maxxum 9 and Eos cameras. It's noisy yes, hunts in low light yes but when you compare it to similar cameras compare it with a similar lens it's performance is there with them. The PZ-1p is still the power house tho I'll admit. Also Pentaxs first DSLR attempt was canceled due to philips not being able to ship the chips and resolve noise issuse that Pentax deemed too bad for them. Contax is using the same chip in a $7000 DSLR, no one is bashing them? Pentax's track record so far is better than he rest, they have not abandoned their mounts, retained the best compatability across their lens mount, maintained full backward compatability with lenses and flashes ( and forwards compatability to a point to ) designed well made cameras at a decent price, the list goes on and on.
I'm being pessimistic for that very reason---I don't know the
specs!!! There is no reason Pentax should be this far behind the
curve at this point. It seems their announcement was rushed due to
Canon's 10D announcement. Recall that 2 years ago Pentax made a
similar non detailed announcement and that DSLR never made it to
the market.

By the way, the shutter lag is unique to digital cameras and has no
bearing on any parts it shares with its sister 35mm---and it is a
very big deal if you take action or impromptu shots as I do.
According to the review on this website, Canon's new 10D has
considerably less shutter lag than the D60. Here, Pentax gives us
no specs and we have nothing to compare it to.

My Pentax MZ-S (their flagship 35mm) does not have fast
autofocusing either (relative to cameras in its class), so your
claim that the *ist will focus very fast simply because it shares
35mm components doesn't hold much water. I've owned the PZ-1p
prior to buying the MZ-S so I speak with great experience in this
regard (7 years with my PZ-1P and 1 year with my MZ-S). Pentax's
35mm cameras are not known for fast autofocusing. I bought the
MZ-S and the PZ-1P because their controls are easy and fast to use
yet full featured.

--
Frank from Phoenix
Olympus E20N; C5050; FL40; LiPo; Pentax MZ-S
 
I am a dedicated Pentax user, having used the PZ1-P for many years and more recently the MZ-S. I've also along the way owned a Nikon N90s. The MZ-S is not as fast as the F100 (my brother in law shoots the F100) and according to the tests available on the web, not as fast as the Canon's either. So, you obviously don't own a Pentax product since you'd know its strength is not focusing speed.

--
Frank from Phoenix
Olympus E20N; C5050; FL40; LiPo; Pentax MZ-S
 
.
By the way, the shutter lag is unique to digital cameras and has no
bearing on any parts it shares with its sister 35mm---and it is a
very big deal if you take action or impromptu shots as I do.
According to the review on this website, Canon's new 10D has
considerably less shutter lag than the D60. Here, Pentax gives us
no specs and we have nothing to compare it to.
Not true for D-SLR's. You'd know this if you understood how they
worked
If you understood the difference between digital cameras and film SLRs you'd know that my statement was true. Trading insults isn't productive. Sorry, but your wrong on this one.
--
Frank from Phoenix
Olympus E20N; C5050; FL40; LiPo; Pentax MZ-S
 
By the way, the shutter lag is unique to digital cameras and has no
bearing on any parts it shares with its sister 35mm---and it is a
very big deal if you take action or impromptu shots as I do.
According to the review on this website, Canon's new 10D has
considerably less shutter lag than the D60. Here, Pentax gives us
no specs and we have nothing to compare it to.
Not true for D-SLR's. You'd know this if you understood how they
worked
If you understood the difference between digital cameras and film
SLRs you'd know that my statement was true. Trading insults isn't
productive. Sorry, but your wrong on this one.
Sorry, I didn't intend to be insulting. Would you care to enlighten me? A D-SLR meters and focuses using the same mechanism as its film counterpart. Apart from this, what could introduce shutter lag?

I tried to look for a source that had measured shutter lag for D-SLR's and their film counterparts using the same lens and same circumstances, but couldn't find one. The sources I did find were either film or digital, and the shutter lags seemed roughly equal.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
 
There's a simple solution to that: don't change lenses.
Oh yeah? Can you please tell me a brand of lens that equals the specifications of the 28-200 on the minolta dimage 7 series? Sure you can buy a sigma or tamron 28-200 lens, but they requre a full frame sensor and don't come anywhere near the GT-lens on the 7 series in image quality (lack of aberations and distortion). For the EOS 10D one would have to have an 18-125mm zoom lens (1.6X magnification due to smaller sized sensor). Can a lens with these specs be bought today in an EOS-mount, or any mount? I don't think so!

Olaf

--
Canon G1 owner since December 2000 - G2 owner since May 2002
Flash system: a Canon 420EX, a Canon 550EX and a Canon ST-E2.
After the pictures are taken:
Mac G4/450Mhz, 1Gb RAM, 21' Mac Studio Display w/Colorsync
 
There's a simple solution to that: don't change lenses.
Oh yeah? Can you please tell me a brand of lens that equals the
specifications of the 28-200 on the minolta dimage 7 series? Sure
you can buy a sigma or tamron 28-200 lens, but they requre a full
frame sensor and don't come anywhere near the GT-lens on the 7
series in image quality (lack of aberations and distortion). For
the EOS 10D one would have to have an 18-125mm zoom lens (1.6X
magnification due to smaller sized sensor). Can a lens with these
specs be bought today in an EOS-mount, or any mount? I don't think
so!
No indeed.

My point was simply that there are circumstances where you might want to trade off the flexibility of being able to change lenses for the added reliability of not getting dust into the camera.

It's odd, though, that so many people are so focused on zoom range. Not having the right focal length is only one (and IMO not the most important) equipment-related reason for missing a shot. You might miss it because your lens was too dark or your film/camera not sensitive enough, because your camera was too slow, because the scene was too contrasty for your film or sensor, because the viewfinder was too small or too dark or too pixelated for you to catch the expression... or because you ran out of batteries, memory, or film, or because your equipment suffered a malfunction.

For me, the most important limiting factor is brightness and sensitivity. I feel much freer shooting with a 50 mm f/1.4 and ISO400 to ISO1000 film than with a 28-200 f/2.8 while limited to ISO200.

Incidentally, what prompted you to resurrect this thread?

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
 
Sorry, I didn't intend to be insulting. Would you care to enlighten
me? A D-SLR meters and focuses using the same mechanism as its film
counterpart. Apart from this, what could introduce shutter lag?

I tried to look for a source that had measured shutter lag for
D-SLR's and their film counterparts using the same lens and same
circumstances, but couldn't find one. The sources I did find were
either film or digital, and the shutter lags seemed roughly equal.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
Hi Petteri,

seems to be a terms misunderstanding:

A D-SLR meters and focuses using the same mechanism as its film counterpart, means it uses a dedicated AF sensor, thus the AF lag of a good D-SLR can be as low as that of a film SLR.

Shutter lag is the delay of the CCD control and imaging electronics after AF lock between the order to expose and the happening of it. With manual focus or pre-focus it's the lag between pressing the shutter and exposure.
Total lag = AF lag + shutter lag.

With cheap digicams shutter lag can be significant. With most quality digicams it is much lower than the AF lag , however.

BTW, I hope you will have a lot of fun with your D-SLR, and stay in this forum nevertheless.
BeeJee
 

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