Kodak DCS Proback

I have just one word - WOW. Digital is really here. I don't understand though how these "digital backs" work. Where is information stored? Is film also used when the digital back is in operation? Where do all the electronics go, and how does it interface?

Hope this question does not sound ignorant. I just don't understand the interfacing - even though I know that digital cameras are very similar in core body to a regular cam...

-JM

James said:

I have just one word - WOW. Digital is really here. I don't understand
though how these "digital backs" work. Where is information stored? Is
film also used when the digital back is in operation? Where do all the
electronics go, and how does it interface?

Hope this question does not sound ignorant. I just don't understand the
interfacing - even though I know that digital cameras are very similar
in core body to a regular cam...

-JM

Click to expand...

These digital backs are very much like medium format film backs. On most of the medium format

cameras the area where the film is located comes off. In the digital backs the opening where the

film would be is replaced with a ccd or cmos or chip. The information (like Mega-Vision) is wired to
the computer or to a bat pack (storing the memory card and or drive).

The beauty of the new Kodak Professional DCS Pro Back is that it incorporates internal storage (PC Cards). It also has internal rechargeable batteries, a LCD preview screen (tilts up 90 degrees for waist level viewing). This makes the DCS Pro Back a truly portable unit for location work. Also, when connected to the host computer via Firewire, no other power supply is needed (draws its power through the Firewire connection itself). This unit is truly slick! Kodak has addressed a LOT of issues with previous digital back offerings with this product!

Tom DeRousie
http://www.modernimaging.com

Michael Martin said:

James said:

I have just one word - WOW. Digital is really here. I don't understand
though how these "digital backs" work. Where is information stored? Is
film also used when the digital back is in operation? Where do all the
electronics go, and how does it interface?

Hope this question does not sound ignorant. I just don't understand the
interfacing - even though I know that digital cameras are very similar
in core body to a regular cam...

-JM

Click to expand...

These digital backs are very much like medium format film backs. On most
of the medium format
cameras the area where the film is located comes off. In the digital
backs the opening where the
film would be is replaced with a ccd or cmos or chip. The information
(like Mega-Vision) is wired to
the computer or to a bat pack (storing the memory card and or drive).

Click to expand...

This is a huge leap foward if this back is in the $20,000 price range it may force phase one and megavision to lower their prices on their 6 mp backs
or maybe they will be twice that much

danny L.

Michael Martin said:

James said:

I have just one word - WOW. Digital is really here. I don't understand
though how these "digital backs" work. Where is information stored? Is
film also used when the digital back is in operation? Where do all the
electronics go, and how does it interface?

Hope this question does not sound ignorant. I just don't understand the
interfacing - even though I know that digital cameras are very similar
in core body to a regular cam...

-JM

Click to expand...

These digital backs are very much like medium format film backs. On most
of the medium format
cameras the area where the film is located comes off. In the digital
backs the opening where the
film would be is replaced with a ccd or cmos or chip. The information
(like Mega-Vision) is wired to
the computer or to a bat pack (storing the memory card and or drive).

Click to expand...

I am confused in the description of the back it describes the image as 38 mm on a sied. If I put thison my RZ at 60 x 70 mm image won't have a vast change in how my lenses work ?

Bill

Tom DeRousie said:

Tom DeRousie
http://www.modernimaging.com

Michael Martin said:

James said:

I have just one word - WOW. Digital is really here. I don't understand
though how these "digital backs" work. Where is information stored? Is
film also used when the digital back is in operation? Where do all the
electronics go, and how does it interface?

Hope this question does not sound ignorant. I just don't understand the
interfacing - even though I know that digital cameras are very similar
in core body to a regular cam...

-JM

Click to expand...

These digital backs are very much like medium format film backs. On most
of the medium format
cameras the area where the film is located comes off. In the digital
backs the opening where the
film would be is replaced with a ccd or cmos or chip. The information
(like Mega-Vision) is wired to
the computer or to a bat pack (storing the memory card and or drive).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

With stuff like this emerging, it looks like the beginning of the end for film, especially in the commercial end of things. Based on Kodak's previous offerings, I know this isn't going to come cheap. Whadday think? $30,000?

I had one thought/question just this morning. I wonder if when Kodak prices a product like this, if their bean counters factor in revenue dilution from loss of film sales?

Best regards,
Stanton
http://stantondesign.com

Tom DeRousie said:

Tom DeRousie
http://www.modernimaging.com

Michael Martin said:

James said:

I have just one word - WOW. Digital is really here. I don't understand
though how these "digital backs" work. Where is information stored? Is
film also used when the digital back is in operation? Where do all the
electronics go, and how does it interface?

Hope this question does not sound ignorant. I just don't understand the
interfacing - even though I know that digital cameras are very similar
in core body to a regular cam...

-JM

Click to expand...

These digital backs are very much like medium format film backs. On most
of the medium format
cameras the area where the film is located comes off. In the digital
backs the opening where the
film would be is replaced with a ccd or cmos or chip. The information
(like Mega-Vision) is wired to
the computer or to a bat pack (storing the memory card and or drive).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

[...]

stanton said:

I had one thought/question just this morning. I wonder if when Kodak
prices a product like this, if their bean counters factor in revenue
dilution from loss of film sales?

Click to expand...

[...]

Are you kidding? Any big compony does that (except the ones that refuse to self compete like IBM in the 70s and 80s). To not would risk stock holder law suits. Plus it would be kinda dumb (but not responding to the prices other set for their produts is also dumb, if someone starts eating the film market alive Kodak wants it to be Kodak, not Fuji, Sony, or Pentax! ...they just want the film market to stay uneaten as long as possable, then do the gobblin themselves).

Get a copy of their anual report if you want to see them lay it out for their share holders (the report is normally free if you call their inverster relations line, and allways free if you actually have any of their stock).

I now return you to the reguraly scheduled pro-talk. No more bisness talk, I promise.

The spec says 1.3x focal length multiplier ( http://www.lonestardigital.com/multipler.htm )

Since 36.8 x 1.3 = 47.84mm, there would seem to be a disparity between that number and the medium format film size. Presumably the focal plane for the CCD is in a different place relative to the lens than the focal plane of a film back?

Bill said:

Bill

Tom DeRousie said:

Tom DeRousie
http://www.modernimaging.com

Michael Martin said:

James said:

I have just one word - WOW. Digital is really here. I don't understand
though how these "digital backs" work. Where is information stored? Is
film also used when the digital back is in operation? Where do all the
electronics go, and how does it interface?

Hope this question does not sound ignorant. I just don't understand the
interfacing - even though I know that digital cameras are very similar
in core body to a regular cam...

-JM

Click to expand...

These digital backs are very much like medium format film backs. On most
of the medium format
cameras the area where the film is located comes off. In the digital
backs the opening where the
film would be is replaced with a ccd or cmos or chip. The information
(like Mega-Vision) is wired to
the computer or to a bat pack (storing the memory card and or drive).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

THanks for the answers - everyone. What I find VERY interesting about this, is that it implies that the electronics of the cameras are close enough to digital to allow VERY SIMPLE interfacing. This means that the cost of a digicam should not be much more than the cost of putting the sensor (and other storage media stuff) in the cam...

Now, as for price...I am sure it will be expensive. As for the 6 MP backs for the 6x4.5 that exist, I am sure that they will drop in price to compete with the new 6MP digicams coming out. The new 6 MP digicams will probably be much more flexible then the 6 MP digibacks for medium format cams.

-JM

Michael Martin said:

James said:

I have just one word - WOW. Digital is really here. I don't understand
though how these "digital backs" work. Where is information stored? Is
film also used when the digital back is in operation? Where do all the
electronics go, and how does it interface?

Hope this question does not sound ignorant. I just don't understand the
interfacing - even though I know that digital cameras are very similar
in core body to a regular cam...

-JM

Click to expand...

These digital backs are very much like medium format film backs. On most
of the medium format
cameras the area where the film is located comes off. In the digital
backs the opening where the
film would be is replaced with a ccd or cmos or chip. The information
(like Mega-Vision) is wired to
the computer or to a bat pack (storing the memory card and or drive).

Click to expand...

My $0.02 worth.

Wow. And I just had the Kodak guy over to demo the $15k 660.

Am setting up a new studio. My 2nd. This time I want folks to see the work before they leave projected and sized on a wall with a digital projector. Only part left is the digital camera end of things.

My first preference was for a 465 digback for a Mamiya. Then, lenses, viewfinder, perspective etc - all fit. But was warned away from that back.

Then I got my head twisted with the Fuji S1. But, was not sharp enough for 24x30 and up.

Now, Kodak mucks me over one more time. The pace of this business is fascinating.

I would suspect they would leave it in the $22,500 range. This will place pressure on Leaf and Phase One and others. How many can they sell at $30k +++. Not too many.

Or, they could really pull a fast one and bring it in at about $19,500. $5000 over the 660 and underpriced from the competition.

It will prove interesting.

Jon...

Jon said:

My $0.02 worth.

Wow. And I just had the Kodak guy over to demo the $15k 660.

Am setting up a new studio. My 2nd. This time I want folks to see the
work before they leave projected and sized on a wall with a digital
projector. Only part left is the digital camera end of things.

Click to expand...

That sounds like a dream studio to me! Get the client in and shoot and show them a rough draft on the wall at 4' X 5'? what a stud! I bow to you.

The medium format digital images still look better than the DCS 560/ 660 images. Both are
6mp.

James said:

Now, as for price...I am sure it will be expensive. As for the 6 MP
backs for the 6x4.5 that exist, I am sure that they will drop in price
to compete with the new 6MP digicams coming out. The new 6 MP digicams
will probably be much more flexible then the 6 MP digibacks for medium
format cams.

-JM

Michael Martin said:

James said:

I have just one word - WOW. Digital is really here. I don't understand
though how these "digital backs" work. Where is information stored? Is
film also used when the digital back is in operation? Where do all the
electronics go, and how does it interface?

Hope this question does not sound ignorant. I just don't understand the
interfacing - even though I know that digital cameras are very similar
in core body to a regular cam...

-JM

Click to expand...

These digital backs are very much like medium format film backs. On most
of the medium format
cameras the area where the film is located comes off. In the digital
backs the opening where the
film would be is replaced with a ccd or cmos or chip. The information
(like Mega-Vision) is wired to
the computer or to a bat pack (storing the memory card and or drive).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

We based our marketing model on a number of other studios. But the largest theme, is, what I look at as an 'Excitement Curve'. ie: If you want smaller orders and deflated/disappointed customers, deliver their proofs late and have them make a lot of trips. Move the point of ordering far away from the event of the actual work.

Once you hand them that piece of paper, it is over. They have seen their work. They will show it off to their neighbors and friends and relatives. And, I guarantee your orders will be smaller when they come bak a week or two later to place the order. Their excitement of the -event- will largely be gone.

Instead/ Move these two points on the curve to the same spot as the event and they will be really excited, they will 'see' them on the wall above a couch and end tables prjected to the size it -should- be, and at that point the 8x10 will look ever so small.

Also. When they actually get to touch the work, it will be matted and framed, ready to hang. Don't want the frame? No problem. Take it home for thirty days and return it if not needed/wanted.

How does this actually work? Whether using film or digital, get an image on digital of the portrait. Funnel that thru Photoshop (quickly) and plop it into a directory for the presentation computer. I write programs for a living so I wrote one to project the image thru a digital proj and it is also capable of sizing theprint from 8x10 up to 30x40.

Based on other's experience, we feel this will help us get larger print sales and also will increase the order size.

Jon ...

I was reading the Phyllips 6 MP imager section here and I read that the 6mp camera matches 35 mm - but that the optics after 4.5 mp limit the CCD (as in film, the optics limit the picture quality)...so technically, 4.5mp should match film.

Having said that, is the CCD imager larger on a medium format back then a comparable 6mp 35 mm camera? Or is it the same size? If so, the math states that they should have comparable images.

-JM

James said:

I have just one word - WOW. Digital is really here. I don't understand
though how these "digital backs" work. Where is information stored? Is
film also used when the digital back is in operation? Where do all the
electronics go, and how does it interface?

Hope this question does not sound ignorant. I just don't understand the
interfacing - even though I know that digital cameras are very similar
in core body to a regular cam...

-JM

Click to expand...

Go to http://www.imaging-spectrum.com

There you will find a comparison of the Kodak DCS 660 and the D1, S1 and also the Phase One medium format digital back. The Phase One and the 660 are both 6mp chips. The phase one blows away the 660. It's obvious. Also why does the D1 image (2.75 mp) look better than the 990 (3.34 mp)? All
megapixels are not created equal.

James said:

Having said that, is the CCD imager larger on a medium format back then
a comparable 6mp 35 mm camera? Or is it the same size? If so, the math
states that they should have comparable images.

-JM

James said:

I have just one word - WOW. Digital is really here. I don't understand
though how these "digital backs" work. Where is information stored? Is
film also used when the digital back is in operation? Where do all the
electronics go, and how does it interface?

Hope this question does not sound ignorant. I just don't understand the
interfacing - even though I know that digital cameras are very similar
in core body to a regular cam...

-JM

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. The reason why the D1 looks better then the 990 is simple - the spread is larger, giving it the coverage of a 990. On top of it, the noise is much better on the D1.

-JM

Michael Martin said:

There you will find a comparison of the Kodak DCS 660 and the D1, S1 and
also the Phase One medium format digital back. The Phase One and the
660 are both 6mp chips. The phase one blows away the 660. It's
obvious. Also why does the D1 image (2.75 mp) look better than the 990
(3.34 mp)? All
megapixels are not created equal.

James said:

Having said that, is the CCD imager larger on a medium format back then
a comparable 6mp 35 mm camera? Or is it the same size? If so, the math
states that they should have comparable images.

-JM

James said:

I have just one word - WOW. Digital is really here. I don't understand
though how these "digital backs" work. Where is information stored? Is
film also used when the digital back is in operation? Where do all the
electronics go, and how does it interface?

Hope this question does not sound ignorant. I just don't understand the
interfacing - even though I know that digital cameras are very similar
in core body to a regular cam...

-JM

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...