DSLR for B+W?

Fafhrd · Mar 4, 2003

I'm now considering switching to a digital SLR after spending the last 12 months scanning 35mm film on a canoscan 4000 into photoshop. I downloaded some D60/10D/D100/S2 etc. images and printed them out and I was stunned by the quality. I've been extremely impressed with the colour prints I made using the downloaded images from all the cameras (on an epson 1290).

I haven't decided which camera to go for, but I am erring on side of the 10D. My (probably naive) question is: as I shoot more than half my stuff in black and white with film, would this influence which dSLR to buy? (I print B+W using a dedicated BW quad Epson using pigment inks.)

I've read lots of reviews of these cameras, but no-one really goes into details when it comes to black and white stuff.

Thanks for any advice.

Paul Stout · Mar 4, 2003

Fafhrd said:
I'm now considering switching to a digital SLR after spending the
last 12 months scanning 35mm film on a canoscan 4000 into
photoshop. I downloaded some D60/10D/D100/S2 etc. images and
printed them out and I was stunned by the quality. I've been
extremely impressed with the colour prints I made using the
downloaded images from all the cameras (on an epson 1290).

I haven't decided which camera to go for, but I am erring on side
of the 10D. My (probably naive) question is: as I shoot more than
half my stuff in black and white with film, would this influence
which dSLR to buy? (I print B+W using a dedicated BW quad Epson
using pigment inks.)

I've read lots of reviews of these cameras, but no-one really goes
into details when it comes to black and white stuff.

Thanks for any advice.

The best way to shoot B+W with a DSLR is to shoot raw files, and then convert that raw file to B+W with post processing. The DSLR shoots a color file regardless of what setting you give it, and your desk top computer is the best tool for converting it to B+W afterwards.

If B+W is your main goal, then the more important question that you should be asking is what software tools to use to convert the raw files with.

--
legalize UPDOC!

Jorge Alban · Mar 4, 2003

Paul Stout said:
My (probably naive) question is: as I shoot more than
half my stuff in black and white with film, would this influence
which dSLR to buy?

RGB to Grayscale conversion technique matters a lot more than the brand of digital SLR camera used. You definitely want refined USM technique and the highest possible resolution since color will no longer be there to enhance apparent sharpness. The printing stage is also critical due to metamerism and banding issues, but you already got that down if using quadtones.

I photograph with a D60 and convert in Photoshop using different techniques depending on the image. Prints are as luminous as traditional B&W fiber based ones but I dont have to live inside the darkroom any more. Check the following link for a mini comparison piece I wrote on that subject:
http://public.fotki.com/JorgeAD/digital_photograpy/caminoinfrax4red.html

Jorge Alban
Costa Rica

http://public.fotki.com/JorgeAD/fotos_para_libros/pruebas_casas_de_la/2644housesofmemory.html

james russell · Mar 4, 2003

It is rarely mentioned, but the Fui S2 shoots wonderful black and white and you may preview black in white in the lcd.

I originally bought the cameras for this feature as after testing, found the BW S2 file equal to drum scanned plus-x negative film.

If youi can rent, test it first.

This samples is shot on fine, jpg.

http://www.pbase.com/image/13322319/large

James Russell
Russell Rutherford

Petteri Sulonen · Mar 4, 2003

Fafhrd wrote:
[snip]

Pros:

+ Can replicate effects of yellow to red filters out-of-camera (shoot in color and channel mix)
+ Very low noise/grain even at high sensitivities

Cons:
+ Dynamic range still nowhere near B/W neg
+ Texture of noise (what noise there is) isn't as nice as B/W grain

IMO B/W is the one area where digital is still measurably behind silver-halide.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

Fafhrd · Mar 4, 2003

What software tools are there to choose from?
Pros/Cons?

Thanks

Paul Stout said:
The best way to shoot B+W with a DSLR is to shoot raw files, and
then convert that raw file to B+W with post processing. The DSLR
shoots a color file regardless of what setting you give it, and
your desk top computer is the best tool for converting it to B+W
afterwards.

If B+W is your main goal, then the more important question that you
should be asking is what software tools to use to convert the raw
files with.

--
legalize UPDOC!

Manta Ray Arts · Mar 4, 2003

I use Photoshop and don't feel the need for anything else, although I'm open minded about any products others might suggest.

As mentioned above, the only thing you need to be careful about is dynamic range (blowing highlights, noise in under-exposed shadows). If you blow a highlight in digital, the details are gone, not just harder to get as in film. There a many more techniques for killing noise.

Fafhrd said:
Thanks

Paul Stout said:

The best way to shoot B+W with a DSLR is to shoot raw files, and
then convert that raw file to B+W with post processing. The DSLR
shoots a color file regardless of what setting you give it, and
your desk top computer is the best tool for converting it to B+W
afterwards.

If B+W is your main goal, then the more important question that you
should be asking is what software tools to use to convert the raw
files with.

--
legalize UPDOC!

Click to expand...

--
It has to be about the Art, but it is also about Science

Fuji S2Pro, Nikkor 35mm 2.0D, 50mm 1.4D, 85mm 1.8 AF, and 35-70mm 2.8D.

Harlod · Mar 4, 2003

Do you use Adobe Photoshop? If so, I'm very happy with the B&W actions at http://www.fredmiranda.com . These operate on the TIF and .JPG files, not the raw files. There may be some technical reasons for wanting to operate on the raw directly, but if there are, I honestly don't know what I'm missing.

They have actions that emulate B&W film with various filters and settings.

Fafhrd said:
Thanks

Paul Stout said:

The best way to shoot B+W with a DSLR is to shoot raw files, and
then convert that raw file to B+W with post processing. The DSLR
shoots a color file regardless of what setting you give it, and
your desk top computer is the best tool for converting it to B+W
afterwards.

If B+W is your main goal, then the more important question that you
should be asking is what software tools to use to convert the raw
files with.

--
legalize UPDOC!

Click to expand...

Fafhrd · Mar 4, 2003

Yes. I use Photoshop 7. I heard there was now a RAW to BW plug in. Anyone tried it?

Harlod said:
They have actions that emulate B&W film with various filters and
settings.

Fafhrd said:

Thanks

Paul Stout said:

The best way to shoot B+W with a DSLR is to shoot raw files, and
then convert that raw file to B+W with post processing. The DSLR
shoots a color file regardless of what setting you give it, and
your desk top computer is the best tool for converting it to B+W
afterwards.

If B+W is your main goal, then the more important question that you
should be asking is what software tools to use to convert the raw
files with.

--
legalize UPDOC!

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

DavidMillier · Mar 4, 2003

Depending on the subject matter e.g. tripod based landscape or architectural work, you can overcome any dynamic range limitations of current DSLRs by taking two shots at different exposures and blending them.

Petteri Sulonen said:
Fafhrd wrote:

[snip]

Pros:
+ Can replicate effects of yellow to red filters out-of-camera
(shoot in color and channel mix)
+ Very low noise/grain even at high sensitivities

Cons:
+ Dynamic range still nowhere near B/W neg
+ Texture of noise (what noise there is) isn't as nice as B/W grain

IMO B/W is the one area where digital is still measurably behind
silver-halide.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

Bern Caughey · Mar 4, 2003

I don't believe there is a RAW> B&W image convertor, but there are certainly are benifits to shooting RAW. The poster may be suggesting that you could make RAW> TIF/PSD converions with various exposure compensations & then combine them in PS to increase the dynamic range.

Russell Brown has some great tips that are in Quicktime
http://www.russellbrown.com/body.html

PhotoKit is inexpensive, intuitive & very powerful. There is a free try-out period.
http://www.pixelgenius.com/photokit/

Since your just getting into digital capture, be sure to check-out the new Adobe Camera Raw pluggin for your conversions. It is also very intuitive for photographers & it has added new life to my D60.

Kodak announced a pro camera for monochrome only about a year ago, but I've never heard anything about it since. The sensor didnit have any color filters on it & it was incapable of shooting in color.

Regards,
Bern Caughey

Fafhrd · Mar 4, 2003

Is the S2 the only DSLR with this feature?

Nice shot BTW.

James Russell said:
It is rarely mentioned, but the Fui S2 shoots wonderful black and
white and you may preview black in white in the lcd.

I originally bought the cameras for this feature as after testing,
found the BW S2 file equal to drum scanned plus-x negative film.

If youi can rent, test it first.

This samples is shot on fine, jpg.

http://www.pbase.com/image/13322319/large

James Russell
Russell Rutherford

Petteri Sulonen · Mar 4, 2003

DMillier said:
Depending on the subject matter e.g. tripod based landscape or
architectural work, you can overcome any dynamic range limitations
of current DSLRs by taking two shots at different exposures and
blending them.

Yeah, there are workarounds, just like using pano to get around the wide-angle limitation. I do both on occasion. However, you would have trouble getting something like this one, for example:

That's one reason I love B/W so much: it frees me (to a great extent) from dynamic range constraints.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

David Kieltyka · Mar 4, 2003

DMillier said:
Depending on the subject matter e.g. tripod based landscape or
architectural work, you can overcome any dynamic range limitations
of current DSLRs by taking two shots at different exposures and
blending them.

I've been doing a bit of this with digital and also with slide film. Works very well.

Regarding b&w, I'm with Petteri in that I prefer the look of film to digital. When I convert digital shots to b&w I almost always add some noise to give the photos something like the texture I get with film, even fine-grained film. Otherwise for my taste the photos look too clinical.

-Dave-

David A Melges · Mar 4, 2003

...would be your biggest consideration...but in my opinion if my Sony f707 can do this:

http://www2.photosig.com/viewphoto.php?id=772525

...any of the current DSLRs should rock for B&W.

dave

Fafhrd said:
I'm now considering switching to a digital SLR after spending the
last 12 months scanning 35mm film on a canoscan 4000 into
photoshop. I downloaded some D60/10D/D100/S2 etc. images and
printed them out and I was stunned by the quality. I've been
extremely impressed with the colour prints I made using the
downloaded images from all the cameras (on an epson 1290).

I haven't decided which camera to go for, but I am erring on side
of the 10D. My (probably naive) question is: as I shoot more than
half my stuff in black and white with film, would this influence
which dSLR to buy? (I print B+W using a dedicated BW quad Epson
using pigment inks.)

I've read lots of reviews of these cameras, but no-one really goes
into details when it comes to black and white stuff.

Thanks for any advice.

mastix · Mar 4, 2003

Hi:

I am also adding noise in forme of grain sometimes. Specially with my S2 I don't like the digital noise from 400ASA upwards so I add even more "film noise" (Photoshop). Now after buying neatimage I can again work again with high iso without the ugly digital noise.

Best regards

David Kieltyka said:
DMillier said:

Depending on the subject matter e.g. tripod based landscape or
architectural work, you can overcome any dynamic range limitations
of current DSLRs by taking two shots at different exposures and
blending them.

Click to expand...

I've been doing a bit of this with digital and also with slide
film. Works very well.

Regarding b&w, I'm with Petteri in that I prefer the look of film
to digital. When I convert digital shots to b&w I almost always add
some noise to give the photos something like the texture I get with
film, even fine-grained film. Otherwise for my taste the photos
look too clinical.

-Dave-

--
Cristian

Ross Perez · Mar 4, 2003

All of the black and whites on our site ( http://www.marissaperez.com ) were taken with a D100 and converted using Nik's B&W plugin for Photoshop.

-Ross

David A. Melges said:
http://www2.photosig.com/viewphoto.php?id=772525

...any of the current DSLRs should rock for B&W.

dave

Fafhrd said:

I'm now considering switching to a digital SLR after spending the
last 12 months scanning 35mm film on a canoscan 4000 into
photoshop. I downloaded some D60/10D/D100/S2 etc. images and
printed them out and I was stunned by the quality. I've been
extremely impressed with the colour prints I made using the
downloaded images from all the cameras (on an epson 1290).

I haven't decided which camera to go for, but I am erring on side
of the 10D. My (probably naive) question is: as I shoot more than
half my stuff in black and white with film, would this influence
which dSLR to buy? (I print B+W using a dedicated BW quad Epson
using pigment inks.)

I've read lots of reviews of these cameras, but no-one really goes
into details when it comes to black and white stuff.

Thanks for any advice.

Click to expand...

Jorge Alban · Mar 4, 2003

Canon Raw format captures a tremendous amount of additional detail in the shadows. But you must shoot raw, expose for the (appropriately placed) highlights and Photoshop (develop) for the shadows. Exactly the opposite of traditional B&W zone system work.

I think it is a nice feature to have a grayscale preview mode. And I was unaware of it in the S2, keep in mind however that very often you will want to selectively ligthen or darken skintones (to simulate color filtration). The most versatile way to do this is through the Channel Mixer or Hue & Saturation and Blend modes techniques detailed in my previous post. You wont always have a professional make-up artist working with you so getting that RGB image to photoshop really improves your chances of perfect skintones...

Please see: http://public.fotki.com/JorgeAD/bodas_y_retratos/retratos_prugue-saborio/

Jorge Alban
Costa Rica

james russell · Mar 4, 2003

Jorge Alban said:
I think it is a nice feature to have a grayscale preview mode. And
I was unaware of it in the S2, keep in mind however

N aturally you will want all the range possible in a black and white digital file, same with a black and white negative. If you shoot the S2 approx. 1/3 stop dark you will not block the shadows and hold all the highlights.

Actually if you shoot in raw mode in BW you can preview the image in BW and it also holds the color information, though I shoot jpeg fine and like the look, though it is hard for some people to think about a jpeg as a master file, it works for me.

It is a very deep file that offers for a lot of selective correction.

I think black and white with the S2 is a very overlooked feature, in preview and post effects.

Try it next to a drum scanned 2 1/4 negative and I think you will find the quality very surprising.

Best,

James Russell
Russell Rutherford
http://www.pbase.com/image/5011202

Gavin Cato · Mar 4, 2003

Sorry Ross if I'm missing the obvious - but whats "nik's b&w plugin"? where do i get it from?

cheers

Ross Perez said:
-Ross

David A. Melges said:

http://www2.photosig.com/viewphoto.php?id=772525

...any of the current DSLRs should rock for B&W.

dave

Fafhrd said:

I'm now considering switching to a digital SLR after spending the
last 12 months scanning 35mm film on a canoscan 4000 into
photoshop. I downloaded some D60/10D/D100/S2 etc. images and
printed them out and I was stunned by the quality. I've been
extremely impressed with the colour prints I made using the
downloaded images from all the cameras (on an epson 1290).

I haven't decided which camera to go for, but I am erring on side
of the 10D. My (probably naive) question is: as I shoot more than
half my stuff in black and white with film, would this influence
which dSLR to buy? (I print B+W using a dedicated BW quad Epson
using pigment inks.)

I've read lots of reviews of these cameras, but no-one really goes
into details when it comes to black and white stuff.

Thanks for any advice.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

DSLR for B+W?

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