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Conspiracy against AA battery
- Thread starter NT32977
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Dougvk
Active member
Camera makers are trying to get more money from you, but there's more to the story. AA's vary in capacity, charge/discharge rates and operating temperatures from one manufacturer to the next. With a proprietary design, the exact characteristics of the battery can be programmed into the camera's electronics, resulting in better power management and longer battery life. In addition, a proprietary battery can be optimized to the camera's form factor, resulting in lower weight, improved handling or better appearance.
Well i do agree that some brands of batteries (like Nikon0 are overpriced, but for e.g. Olympus proprietary batteries are much cheaper. I still think in the long run proprietary batteries for digicam make more sense, and I speak from experience lol!!!! Now we do need to clone them at a cheaper price.
digicammania
Leading Member
Rob S
Forum Enthusiast
Surely the answer would be the same as when NiCads and NiMh batteries were invented. Put instructions on the charger and batteries that Li-Ion batteries should only be charged with the right charger, in exactly the same way they say not to charge Alkaline batteries (in any kind of charger) or not to charge NiMh batteries in a Nicad charger and vice versa.
digicammania
Leading Member
- HP 935, 735
- Olympus 750, 740, 560, 390
- Minolta F200, E223
- Kyocera L4v, L3v
- Toshiba 4300
Dominic Groß
Veteran Member
IMHO the real Conspiracy is that the industry wants to keep us Customers away from LI-ION Cells. The normal Cells are not to expensive (at least not as expensive as the batteries for the Products). But because they are all not using the standard LI-ION Cells we have to buy their cells in a specialy shaped part of plastic that fits our Device. LI-ION would be a lot cheaper if all the Electronic that takes care of low-unloading issue and loading would be placed in the Camera and only the standard LI-ION Cells (round cells are a bit bigger than aa) would be inserted. But that would lead to a price drop and everybody could by his cells everywhere. This is not acceptable for the Companies because they want to make more money, so they tell us that LI-ION are very difficult to handle, they are difficult to handle to a certain point but if the Cameras and charges have the circuit that prevents them from low-unloading or overcharging the cells this would be no problem, ICs that do that are availible from Linear Technologies, so this would be no problem for the companies. But they continue to tell us that LI-ION is only for the OEMs that could proof that they can handle the technologie. And for the pricing of single cells, i recently got 6 Cells for ca. 20 US$ a four cell Sony LI-ION sells for ca. 180-200 US$ here.
http://www.pbase.com/dgross
ICQ UIN: 289647506
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http://www.pbase.com/dgross
ICQ UIN: 289647506
JKP
Well-known member
Some mechanical equipment don't like rechargeable batteries,
due to their lower voltage (1.25V vs 1.5V). For example my
electrical toothbrush runs much slower with rechargeables than
with alkaline batteries.
due to their lower voltage (1.25V vs 1.5V). For example my
electrical toothbrush runs much slower with rechargeables than
with alkaline batteries.
Cipher
Senior Member
The regular (AA) lithium batteries are NOT the same a Lithium-ion batteries. They are completely different.
What you're asking for is a standard shape and size for lithium-ion batteries. That makes sense, but with competition between manufacturers to make the smallest cameras, they won't do it (plus of course the fewer profits from selling proprietary batteries). But then again, Canon uses the same Lithium-ion for the the G2, G3, Optura and ZR camcorders. There are also aftermarket manufacturers that make clones of the BP-512 battery.
Cipher
Senior Member
You would think so. But things have changed since NiCads and NiMh batteries were invented. Since then the lawyers in America have been genetically altered to be the most aggressive in the universe. Add to that a society where nobody takes responsibility for their own actions (Witness the McDonald's "They didn't warn me that eating everyday at McDonalds for ten years would make me fat" lawsuit). Any new product these days must take into consideration how many times they'll be sued by stupid consumers who won't read the instructions before using it. Lithium-ion batteries WILL catch fire if put into a standard charger for Nicad/NiMh while alkalines will leak (yes it says it can catch fire/explode, but that's the lawyers protecting the manufacturer).
Dominic Groß
Veteran Member
Well I know that, where did I say that they are the same? I just said that the normal standard shaped round LI-ION cells are not that expensive then the ones you later by from your company. The only difference is that the company putted in a circuit that protects the LI-ION from low-unoading, overloading and too high temperature while loading. The ICs that do that job are quite cheap to and do not make this huge difference in price. In the second part of this posting you can read why it could be possible for the companies to use standard cells.
There is already a standard shape and size, but just for the cells themselve... So what I am asking for a slots in the products that has this size (a normal round cell is about 64mm long and 17mm thick, there are some smaller round cells and prism cells (their size is also standardized)).
YOu don't have to buy AA cells for the 10th of the price they are worth in a special shapped plasticbox so that they fit your device, but that is what they are doing with LI-ION. The only "problem" is that the Camera than has to take care about low-unloading controll. And the chargers need to have a protection against overloading. Than everybody can be happy and buy any of those standard round cell LI-ION he wants, there would be competition on the market etc. This would also mean that you can decide between heavy LI-ION with high capacity and not so long lifetime or light, small capacity and long lifetime ones.
--
http://www.pbase.com/dgross
ICQ UIN: 289647506
Dominic Groß
Veteran Member
My english really sucks today... sorry 
http://www.pbase.com/dgross
ICQ UIN: 289647506
You don't have to buy AA cells for tenfold price they are
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http://www.pbase.com/dgross
ICQ UIN: 289647506
why not make a different form factor? make the batteries 2/3 the height of a standard aa alkaline/nicd/nimh. they would simply not then fit. you would still have a standard size/shape/energy so that they could be made cheaply by third parties. unfort this would prevent their use in many other common devices...
btw, i accidentally put a set of alkalines in my recharger the other day. it put a 1.5-1.6v charge back on the batteries. what will happen? can i 'reuse' them safely?
btw, i accidentally put a set of alkalines in my recharger the other day. it put a 1.5-1.6v charge back on the batteries. what will happen? can i 'reuse' them safely?
Jola
Senior Member
I wouldn't touch a camera using proprietary batteries with a 50ft pole.
The cost and inefficiency associated with multiple batteries and chargers is just too horrible to contemplate. I have already spent a fortune on video camera battery failures and special chargers.
A terrible waste of money and pollution of the environment.
Just buy chap non-polluting and efficient NiMH AA's !!! Just do it!
Jola
Senior Member
I use a C-4000Z with 2000 mA NiMH batteries for scuba. I typically replace them after every second dive, but they have never died during a dive. They could possibly last for three dives, but I always have to open the housing to replace the memory cards after the second dive, so that is irrelevant.
Proprietary is unnecessary and is just a waste of money.
Jola
Senior Member
Things changed a long time before you bought your C-3000Z.
I bought my first 1.3 Mp digicam a few years before that and at that time it was general knowlkedge that Alkaline and/or Lithium batteries were not suitable for digicams (Lithium because of cost).
At that time you could only get 1000mA NiMH's, but that was still better than any alternative.
Where were you hiding when you bought your C-3000Z?
But a lot of these cameras fall under three categories:
A) Cameras too small to fit 2 or 4 AA batteries without significantly increasing the overall size, which defeats the purpose of compact and ultracompact.
B) Cameras that require lots of power in a battery package that 4 AA batteries simply could not fit in.
C) Cameras that do fit, but are only considered compacts at best.
You could argue that all new notebooks should be powered by AA batteries instead of li-ion, but the consequences would be very uneconomical. Besides, you lose out on profit margins on the accessories, which isn't something a company wants to see.
John Duesterhoeft
Leading Member
I borrowed it and an underwater enclosure for a dive trip from a friend. That is when I learned that AA's also produced enough heat in the enclosure to prevent the camera from functioning properly all the time. I had to turn the camera off for a few minutes occasionally to let it cool.
My camera, which I missed very much on the trip, is a Canon G2. The G2 uses the wonderful BP-511 proprietary battery.
Happily, the d60 and 10d also use that same battery.
My camera, which I missed very much on the trip, is a Canon G2. The G2 uses the wonderful BP-511 proprietary battery.
Happily, the d60 and 10d also use that same battery.
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