difficult lighting

Could I please ask for a little guidance as I have an idea for a photograph but I don't know how to go about taking it.

The picture I wish take is that of some kids sitting on a pier in a late afternoon, I want to get the kids well exposed but I also want to capture the background with all its rich colours, therefore I would like to have both the kids in the foreground and the background properly exposed.

I own a Dimage 7 digital camera, I don't own portable flash or lighting equipment but I can hire it should I need it. Could someone please reccomend a technique and or equipment that would help me achieve my intended picture?

After some tought and various test shots I had in mind a braketed exposure, that would capture foreground and the background, then bring them together in Photoshop, would this be an acceptable approach or is there a better way?

--
Cheers
macue

Hi Macue,

Here are my suggestions:

1. Try to bounce some light back on the kid with a white or gold reflector.

2. If you can't bounce back enough light, use a flash with some kind of diffuser, and perhaps a warming gel on the flash. You'll have to be extra careful with the light ratio so that it doesn't underexpose the background.

3. Expose the first shoot for the kid. Expose the second shoot for the background. Combine and optimize in Photoshop.

Cedric

macue said:

Could I please ask for a little guidance as I have an idea for a
photograph but I don't know how to go about taking it.

The picture I wish take is that of some kids sitting on a pier in a
late afternoon, I want to get the kids well exposed but I also want
to capture the background with all its rich colours, therefore I
would like to have both the kids in the foreground and the
background properly exposed.

I own a Dimage 7 digital camera, I don't own portable flash or
lighting equipment but I can hire it should I need it. Could
someone please reccomend a technique and or equipment that would
help me achieve my intended picture?

After some tought and various test shots I had in mind a braketed
exposure, that would capture foreground and the background, then
bring them together in Photoshop, would this be an acceptable
approach or is there a better way?

--
Cheers
macue

Click to expand...

I would approach this with a couple of different methods:

1. Bring some foam core or a reflector if you have one. Try to bounce the natural light onto the subject. Personally, I would prefer this to using flash because you don't have to worry about varying temperatures of light.

2. If you have a tripod and can move the subjects in and out of the shot, I would try taking multiple exposures with the intent of overlaying the two. One with a shot of the pier exposed for the sunset and one with the subjects taken from the same spot but exposed for the subjects. If it were me, I would probably bracket both shots.

3. Try underexposing the subjects and look at using the contrast and shadows to an advantage.

For me, I would come prepared to try at least these. I am sure others probably have more tricks in their bag than I.

macue said:

Could I please ask for a little guidance as I have an idea for a
photograph but I don't know how to go about taking it.

The picture I wish take is that of some kids sitting on a pier in a
late afternoon, I want to get the kids well exposed but I also want
to capture the background with all its rich colours, therefore I
would like to have both the kids in the foreground and the
background properly exposed.

I own a Dimage 7 digital camera, I don't own portable flash or
lighting equipment but I can hire it should I need it. Could
someone please reccomend a technique and or equipment that would
help me achieve my intended picture?

After some tought and various test shots I had in mind a braketed
exposure, that would capture foreground and the background, then
bring them together in Photoshop, would this be an acceptable
approach or is there a better way?

--
Cheers
macue

Click to expand...

--
Another happy Olympus E-10 owner.
http://www.pbase.com/daughertydon

You will have problems trying to use a composite with a living subject. Tiny movements will cause you no end of grief. This will be especially hard with kids, who rarely sit still unless they are asleep (or watching TV)

Make sure to use a tripod, and set up your camera to auto-bracket in "motor drive" mode at it's fastest frame speed. Get a cable release and use it to trigger the shots, so you don't move the camera at all.

Duncan C
------------

Don Daugherty said:

1. Bring some foam core or a reflector if you have one. Try to
bounce the natural light onto the subject. Personally, I would
prefer this to using flash because you don't have to worry about
varying temperatures of light.

2. If you have a tripod and can move the subjects in and out of the
shot, I would try taking multiple exposures with the intent of
overlaying the two. One with a shot of the pier exposed for the
sunset and one with the subjects taken from the same spot but
exposed for the subjects. If it were me, I would probably bracket
both shots.

3. Try underexposing the subjects and look at using the contrast
and shadows to an advantage.

For me, I would come prepared to try at least these. I am sure
others probably have more tricks in their bag than I.

macue said:

Could I please ask for a little guidance as I have an idea for a
photograph but I don't know how to go about taking it.

The picture I wish take is that of some kids sitting on a pier in a
late afternoon, I want to get the kids well exposed but I also want
to capture the background with all its rich colours, therefore I
would like to have both the kids in the foreground and the
background properly exposed.

I own a Dimage 7 digital camera, I don't own portable flash or
lighting equipment but I can hire it should I need it. Could
someone please reccomend a technique and or equipment that would
help me achieve my intended picture?

After some tought and various test shots I had in mind a braketed
exposure, that would capture foreground and the background, then
bring them together in Photoshop, would this be an acceptable
approach or is there a better way?

--
Cheers
macue

Click to expand...

--
Another happy Olympus E-10 owner.
http://www.pbase.com/daughertydon

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/duncanc

Since this is a lighting forum let me suggest that your result can most easily be achieve with the addition of some front light... flash being the simplest and easiest way... my preference would be for a unit that is not directly attached to the camera..

Howver if you dont want to use flash for whatever reason...

If this were a commercial shoot, I would bring either some 4 x 8 white foamcore to the location to bounce some sunlight back.. you can also find large silver folding reflectors that will be useful... but this approach is not feasable for a lone photographer...

My general suggestion if that you purchase a decided minolta brand flash for your camera as well as a dedicated cable to allow you to get the flash off the camera... as you surely realise the benifits of having one availabe at all times..

Geoff

macue said:

Could I please ask for a little guidance as I have an idea for a
photograph but I don't know how to go about taking it.

The picture I wish take is that of some kids sitting on a pier in a
late afternoon, I want to get the kids well exposed but I also want
to capture the background with all its rich colours, therefore I
would like to have both the kids in the foreground and the
background properly exposed.

I own a Dimage 7 digital camera, I don't own portable flash or
lighting equipment but I can hire it should I need it. Could
someone please reccomend a technique and or equipment that would
help me achieve my intended picture?

After some tought and various test shots I had in mind a braketed
exposure, that would capture foreground and the background, then
bring them together in Photoshop, would this be an acceptable
approach or is there a better way?

--
Cheers
macue

Click to expand...

Perhaps I didn't convey precisely what I was thinking. I wasn't implying that anyone should try to bracket live subjects. I was trying to say that there could be one shot of the pier, without subjects, exposed for the sky. Then, move the subjects in, without moving the camera, and exposing for the subjects. You would then be combining based purely on the static portions of the image, not the live subjects (as they would only be represented in one image). The static portions of the image would line up precisely with the live subjects being an additive.

No question, bracketing moving objects is a matter of pure luck and the odds are against you.

Duncan C said:

Make sure to use a tripod, and set up your camera to auto-bracket
in "motor drive" mode at it's fastest frame speed. Get a cable
release and use it to trigger the shots, so you don't move the
camera at all.

Duncan C
------------

Don Daugherty said:

1. Bring some foam core or a reflector if you have one. Try to
bounce the natural light onto the subject. Personally, I would
prefer this to using flash because you don't have to worry about
varying temperatures of light.

2. If you have a tripod and can move the subjects in and out of the
shot, I would try taking multiple exposures with the intent of
overlaying the two. One with a shot of the pier exposed for the
sunset and one with the subjects taken from the same spot but
exposed for the subjects. If it were me, I would probably bracket
both shots.

3. Try underexposing the subjects and look at using the contrast
and shadows to an advantage.

For me, I would come prepared to try at least these. I am sure
others probably have more tricks in their bag than I.

macue said:

Could I please ask for a little guidance as I have an idea for a
photograph but I don't know how to go about taking it.

The picture I wish take is that of some kids sitting on a pier in a
late afternoon, I want to get the kids well exposed but I also want
to capture the background with all its rich colours, therefore I
would like to have both the kids in the foreground and the
background properly exposed.

I own a Dimage 7 digital camera, I don't own portable flash or
lighting equipment but I can hire it should I need it. Could
someone please reccomend a technique and or equipment that would
help me achieve my intended picture?

After some tought and various test shots I had in mind a braketed
exposure, that would capture foreground and the background, then
bring them together in Photoshop, would this be an acceptable
approach or is there a better way?

--
Cheers
macue

Click to expand...

--
Another happy Olympus E-10 owner.
http://www.pbase.com/daughertydon

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/duncanc

Click to expand...

--
Another happy Olympus E-10 owner.
http://www.pbase.com/daughertydon

Don,

That could work. You will have to create a very accurate mask of your kids in order to blend them into the static scene. It's quite tricky to get a good selection without visible haloing around your subject. Do-able, but tricky.

Duncan C
------

Don Daugherty said:

No question, bracketing moving objects is a matter of pure luck and
the odds are against you.

Duncan C said:

Make sure to use a tripod, and set up your camera to auto-bracket
in "motor drive" mode at it's fastest frame speed. Get a cable
release and use it to trigger the shots, so you don't move the
camera at all.

Duncan C
------------

Don Daugherty said:

1. Bring some foam core or a reflector if you have one. Try to
bounce the natural light onto the subject. Personally, I would
prefer this to using flash because you don't have to worry about
varying temperatures of light.

2. If you have a tripod and can move the subjects in and out of the
shot, I would try taking multiple exposures with the intent of
overlaying the two. One with a shot of the pier exposed for the
sunset and one with the subjects taken from the same spot but
exposed for the subjects. If it were me, I would probably bracket
both shots.

3. Try underexposing the subjects and look at using the contrast
and shadows to an advantage.

For me, I would come prepared to try at least these. I am sure
others probably have more tricks in their bag than I.

macue said:

Could I please ask for a little guidance as I have an idea for a
photograph but I don't know how to go about taking it.

The picture I wish take is that of some kids sitting on a pier in a
late afternoon, I want to get the kids well exposed but I also want
to capture the background with all its rich colours, therefore I
would like to have both the kids in the foreground and the
background properly exposed.

I own a Dimage 7 digital camera, I don't own portable flash or
lighting equipment but I can hire it should I need it. Could
someone please reccomend a technique and or equipment that would
help me achieve my intended picture?

After some tought and various test shots I had in mind a braketed
exposure, that would capture foreground and the background, then
bring them together in Photoshop, would this be an acceptable
approach or is there a better way?

--
Cheers
macue

Click to expand...

--
Another happy Olympus E-10 owner.
http://www.pbase.com/daughertydon

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/duncanc

Click to expand...

--
Another happy Olympus E-10 owner.
http://www.pbase.com/daughertydon

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/duncanc

I don't think I would try to mask the subjects, rather try to mask anything out of gamut in the image with the subjects. Smooth tonality of course would be contingent the gamut of both images as well as digital darkroom skills, but I wouldn't let that challenge dictate whether I took the shots to at least try.

In PS6:

Subject pic on bottom, subjectless pic on top. Add layer mask to top layer. Copy bottom layer to layermask, blur, then paint out any masked pixels that might affect the subjects. Adjust opacity of top layer to lessen impact and blend better.

The broader the gamut, the more difficult to get smooth tones. I have found that if I shoot with this intent, it's usually easier. For instance, if you shoot two very high contrast images and try to bring them together, it may be difficult. However, with care, you can shoot the images metered much closer together than you might normally expose.

Personally, I would try to keep the two exposures within 2 stops or less difference. That's just a guess at this point though, without being there of course. Not perfect, but it can be useful at times.

Duncan C said:

That could work. You will have to create a very accurate mask of
your kids in order to blend them into the static scene. It's quite
tricky to get a good selection without visible haloing around your
subject. Do-able, but tricky.

Duncan C
------

Don Daugherty said:

No question, bracketing moving objects is a matter of pure luck and
the odds are against you.

Duncan C said:

Make sure to use a tripod, and set up your camera to auto-bracket
in "motor drive" mode at it's fastest frame speed. Get a cable
release and use it to trigger the shots, so you don't move the
camera at all.

Duncan C
------------

Don Daugherty said:

1. Bring some foam core or a reflector if you have one. Try to
bounce the natural light onto the subject. Personally, I would
prefer this to using flash because you don't have to worry about
varying temperatures of light.

2. If you have a tripod and can move the subjects in and out of the
shot, I would try taking multiple exposures with the intent of
overlaying the two. One with a shot of the pier exposed for the
sunset and one with the subjects taken from the same spot but
exposed for the subjects. If it were me, I would probably bracket
both shots.

3. Try underexposing the subjects and look at using the contrast
and shadows to an advantage.

For me, I would come prepared to try at least these. I am sure
others probably have more tricks in their bag than I.

macue said:

Could I please ask for a little guidance as I have an idea for a
photograph but I don't know how to go about taking it.

The picture I wish take is that of some kids sitting on a pier in a
late afternoon, I want to get the kids well exposed but I also want
to capture the background with all its rich colours, therefore I
would like to have both the kids in the foreground and the
background properly exposed.

I own a Dimage 7 digital camera, I don't own portable flash or
lighting equipment but I can hire it should I need it. Could
someone please reccomend a technique and or equipment that would
help me achieve my intended picture?

After some tought and various test shots I had in mind a braketed
exposure, that would capture foreground and the background, then
bring them together in Photoshop, would this be an acceptable
approach or is there a better way?

--
Cheers
macue

Click to expand...

--
Another happy Olympus E-10 owner.
http://www.pbase.com/daughertydon

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/duncanc

Click to expand...

--
Another happy Olympus E-10 owner.
http://www.pbase.com/daughertydon

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/duncanc

Click to expand...

--
Another happy Olympus E-10 owner.
http://www.pbase.com/daughertydon

macue said:

Could I please ask for a little guidance as I have an idea for a
photograph but I don't know how to go about taking it.

The picture I wish take is that of some kids sitting on a pier in a
late afternoon, I want to get the kids well exposed but I also want
to capture the background with all its rich colours, therefore I
would like to have both the kids in the foreground and the
background properly exposed.

I own a Dimage 7 digital camera, I don't own portable flash or
lighting equipment but I can hire it should I need it. Could
someone please reccomend a technique and or equipment that would
help me achieve my intended picture?

After some tought and various test shots I had in mind a braketed
exposure, that would capture foreground and the background, then
bring them together in Photoshop, would this be an acceptable
approach or is there a better way?

--
Cheers
macue

Click to expand...

--
LARRY

Thanks Don, the taking a shot of the pier first and then the kids in it did cross my mind but I was concerned with halos when blending the shots together, I will try your suggested approach and workflow in Photoshop, I will also use large reflectors to add some light to the foreground subjects as I do believe additional light will help.

I am still debating wheter an external flash will help as I don't like the look of flashed photos, perhaps if I reduce the power of the flash I can balance the shot.

Don Daugherty said:

I don't think I would try to mask the subjects, rather try to mask
anything out of gamut in the image with the subjects. Smooth
tonality of course would be contingent the gamut of both images as
well as digital darkroom skills, but I wouldn't let that challenge
dictate whether I took the shots to at least try.

In PS6:

Subject pic on bottom, subjectless pic on top. Add layer mask to
top layer. Copy bottom layer to layermask, blur, then paint out
any masked pixels that might affect the subjects. Adjust opacity
of top layer to lessen impact and blend better.

The broader the gamut, the more difficult to get smooth tones. I
have found that if I shoot with this intent, it's usually easier.
For instance, if you shoot two very high contrast images and try to
bring them together, it may be difficult. However, with care, you
can shoot the images metered much closer together than you might
normally expose.

Personally, I would try to keep the two exposures within 2 stops or
less difference. That's just a guess at this point though, without
being there of course. Not perfect, but it can be useful at times.

Click to expand...

--
Cheers
macue

Thanks for the suggestions Geoff, I can get my hands on an external flash, but I am still debating wheter or not to use it as I don't like the general look of flashed photos, My original preference was to aquire portable lights, but I cannot get these as they are not battery operated. The reflectors I could use but I doubt that they would give me enough light to aquire the shot I want, I will try them though,, heck it could't hurt.

As for the flash perhaps I can reduce it to maybe 1/2 power, maybe this will give me the results I need.

Geoff Scott said:

Since this is a lighting forum let me suggest that your result can
most easily be achieve with the addition of some front light...
flash being the simplest and easiest way... my preference would be
for a unit that is not directly attached to the camera..

Howver if you dont want to use flash for whatever reason...
If this were a commercial shoot, I would bring either some 4 x 8
white foamcore to the location to bounce some sunlight back.. you
can also find large silver folding reflectors that will be
useful... but this approach is not feasable for a lone
photographer...

My general suggestion if that you purchase a decided minolta brand
flash for your camera as well as a dedicated cable to allow you to
get the flash off the camera... as you surely realise the benifits
of having one availabe at all times..

Geoff

Click to expand...

--
Cheers
macue

perhaps i didnt understand you.. you said you could rent some gear to do the shot...

im not being difficult.. vivitar.. metz... lumidyne... dynalight, hensel, profoto, elinchrom all make battery operated units...

again... this is one of those frustrating posts... in that when the person posting asks how to do it.. well all come out of the woodwork to give that person the benifit of our experience....

I suppose what you really wanted me to say.. .
was :

yes the exposure blending is a great idea..

You asked for input because the shot you have in mind is difficult (you said so your self)... so there is not an easy way..

macue said:

As for the flash perhaps I can reduce it to maybe 1/2 power, maybe
this will give me the results I need.

Geoff Scott said:

Since this is a lighting forum let me suggest that your result can
most easily be achieve with the addition of some front light...
flash being the simplest and easiest way... my preference would be
for a unit that is not directly attached to the camera..

Howver if you dont want to use flash for whatever reason...
If this were a commercial shoot, I would bring either some 4 x 8
white foamcore to the location to bounce some sunlight back.. you
can also find large silver folding reflectors that will be
useful... but this approach is not feasable for a lone
photographer...

My general suggestion if that you purchase a decided minolta brand
flash for your camera as well as a dedicated cable to allow you to
get the flash off the camera... as you surely realise the benifits
of having one availabe at all times..

Geoff

Click to expand...

--
Cheers
macue

Click to expand...

Don,

I'm trying to get my head around the layer masking technique you describe.

As I figure it, the shot where the kids on the pier are properly exposed, the sky would be over-exposed. Thus, if you use a blurred version of this shot as a layer mask for the subject-less shot, the over-exposed sky areas would be shown from the subject-less layer, and kids (properly exposed) would be shown less. However, wouldn't this approach tend to show ghosts of the background through the kids?

Duncan C
--------

Don Daugherty said:

I don't think I would try to mask the subjects, rather try to mask
anything out of gamut in the image with the subjects. Smooth
tonality of course would be contingent the gamut of both images as
well as digital darkroom skills, but I wouldn't let that challenge
dictate whether I took the shots to at least try.

In PS6:

Subject pic on bottom, subjectless pic on top. Add layer mask to
top layer. Copy bottom layer to layermask, blur, then paint out
any masked pixels that might affect the subjects. Adjust opacity
of top layer to lessen impact and blend better.

The broader the gamut, the more difficult to get smooth tones. I
have found that if I shoot with this intent, it's usually easier.
For instance, if you shoot two very high contrast images and try to
bring them together, it may be difficult. However, with care, you
can shoot the images metered much closer together than you might
normally expose.

Personally, I would try to keep the two exposures within 2 stops or
less difference. That's just a guess at this point though, without
being there of course. Not perfect, but it can be useful at times.

Click to expand...

Sorry Geoff, I think you got it right the first time arround, The exporuse blending technique is one that I can easily try, but I do want your oppinion as to what the best approach would be, I do want to know how you would tackle the problem. I take your original advisement under consideration and I will be doing some test shots before I go out and hire the gear.

Geoff Scott said:

You asked for input because the shot you have in mind is difficult
(you said so your self)... so there is not an easy way..

Click to expand...

Perhaps there is no easy way, I know from my personal experience that this type of shot is difficult, for me anyway, so your input is much apprecieated.

Geoff Scott said:

I suppose what you really wanted me to say.. .
was :
yes the exposure blending is a great idea..

Click to expand...

No, I want to know what the best approach would be, I want to know how you would take this shot should you be doing it.

I don't have much experience with using pro equipment, so if you say that the best way would be to use a portable flash, then I guess you are right.

Thanks-again for your input.

Geoff Scott said:

again... this is one of those frustrating posts... in that when
the person posting asks how to do it.. well all come out of the
woodwork to give that person the benifit of our experience....

I suppose what you really wanted me to say.. .
was :

yes the exposure blending is a great idea..

You asked for input because the shot you have in mind is difficult
(you said so your self)... so there is not an easy way..

macue said:

As for the flash perhaps I can reduce it to maybe 1/2 power, maybe
this will give me the results I need.

Geoff Scott said:

Since this is a lighting forum let me suggest that your result can
most easily be achieve with the addition of some front light...
flash being the simplest and easiest way... my preference would be
for a unit that is not directly attached to the camera..

Howver if you dont want to use flash for whatever reason...
If this were a commercial shoot, I would bring either some 4 x 8
white foamcore to the location to bounce some sunlight back.. you
can also find large silver folding reflectors that will be
useful... but this approach is not feasable for a lone
photographer...

My general suggestion if that you purchase a decided minolta brand
flash for your camera as well as a dedicated cable to allow you to
get the flash off the camera... as you surely realise the benifits
of having one availabe at all times..

Geoff

Click to expand...

--
Cheers
macue

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Cheers
macue

Not being much of a lighting person my first thought was to expose for the sky and then balance flash to expose the subject correctly? Being a digital shoot I wouldn't have though this would be too much of a problem with a manual, controllable flash and pc cord (if the Di7 has one)

AFAIK the digital blending you suggest is much easier with landscapes than with well defined subjects like people. Have a look at http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/digital-blending.shtml for a tutorial.

Marc

macue said:

Could I please ask for a little guidance as I have an idea for a
photograph but I don't know how to go about taking it.

The picture I wish take is that of some kids sitting on a pier in a
late afternoon, I want to get the kids well exposed but I also want
to capture the background with all its rich colours, therefore I
would like to have both the kids in the foreground and the
background properly exposed.

I own a Dimage 7 digital camera, I don't own portable flash or
lighting equipment but I can hire it should I need it. Could
someone please reccomend a technique and or equipment that would
help me achieve my intended picture?

After some tought and various test shots I had in mind a braketed
exposure, that would capture foreground and the background, then
bring them together in Photoshop, would this be an acceptable
approach or is there a better way?

--
Cheers
macue

Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion, the truth is that I don't have much experience with pro equipment and I am looking for some insight as to how a pro would go about the shot. The D7 has a PC adapter that can be bought or in my case hired.

I wasn't sure how to take the flash shot as I was unsure about the metering. I will meter the sky and try to balance the flash, I guess this makes sense.

ps. thanx for the link.

Cosmo said:

AFAIK the digital blending you suggest is much easier with
landscapes than with well defined subjects like people. Have a look
at
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/digital-blending.shtml
for a tutorial.

Marc

macue said:

Could I please ask for a little guidance as I have an idea for a
photograph but I don't know how to go about taking it.

The picture I wish take is that of some kids sitting on a pier in a
late afternoon, I want to get the kids well exposed but I also want
to capture the background with all its rich colours, therefore I
would like to have both the kids in the foreground and the
background properly exposed.

I own a Dimage 7 digital camera, I don't own portable flash or
lighting equipment but I can hire it should I need it. Could
someone please reccomend a technique and or equipment that would
help me achieve my intended picture?

After some tought and various test shots I had in mind a braketed
exposure, that would capture foreground and the background, then
bring them together in Photoshop, would this be an acceptable
approach or is there a better way?

--
Cheers
macue

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Cheers
macue