S602 - new firmware?

jkirk@oz · Feb 26, 2003

Processor has been established as a Mitsubishi RISC M32R, excellent info here -
http://www.infomicom.maec.co.jp/M32R/32tope.htm

I've never really considered Mitsubishi before, not that well represented in aussie, but it looks like ONE HECK of a nice chip. Up TO 1MB Flash on board AND FPU !!! Funny enough, I've been looking for these EXACT specs for several months to complete a damn project that had stalled. I'm sending of for development kit quotes. if it turns out that I can emulate the S602 variation too, BONUS !! Any idea what target MPU your pSOS was for? WindRiver want US$16-22,000 .. PFFFTTTT
JKirk

TheBigHampster said:
TheBigHampster wrote:
I worked on psos before as well, and I think I still have the
system manuals lying about at home and some cd's so I'll check if I
still have it. But at any rate, we'd still need a compiler for
whatever processor is in the 602 and I don't think that'll be easy
to come by.

Not really, in the dozens of emulators / development systems I've bought, there's ALWAYS been a "damn good" value "kit" available. Even when I bought the TI 32/64 FPU DSP "top of line" system, it was only about US$2000, AND it was one of the most powerful I've ever used. So the compiler is the easy part, working on 1.5MB of code WITHOUT source is the hard part. What the heck was I thinking

JKirk

sg10 · Feb 26, 2003

MrMagoo said:
Also none of this actually proves that
the 602 can be flashed. If Fuji policy does not include upgrades,
then it makes no sense to use EEprom they would use a mask
programmed Rom.

I tried it (been thinking about 5MP anyway). It didn't do anything.

No smoke during startup, no busy hourglass, no apparent code download (seems 4MB would take at least a second or two of activity), no changes in appearance or function, no anything difference at all.

Looks like a red herring unless there is some secret switchology required. I tried all different startup knob positions, snapped the shutter, turned the thumbwheel, etc. No dice.

jkirk@oz · Feb 26, 2003

Going by what PrzemKo told us and the info at that site, I pretty well am convinced it IS V1.00.

That was very brave of you to try without a backup plan ready .. we applaud your brave attemp. It will be a very similar procedure to Minolta, but obviously different KEY switch positions. I assume you carried out the sequence as per that website? Created the directory structure as described? Yes it will take 4-5 secs min (The Mitsubishi MPU specs are excellent on uploading flash). Even though we appreciate your "willingness" to try, please wait a few days until I have all the Hardware sorted out, I should have a MUCH better grasp of the design. It will turn out to be simple once we work it out.
JKirk

sg10 said:
sg10 wrote:
I tried it (been thinking about 5MP anyway). It didn't do anything.
No smoke during startup, no busy hourglass, no apparent code
download (seems 4MB would take at least a second or two of
activity), no changes in appearance or function, no anything
difference at all.
Looks like a red herring unless there is some secret switchology
required. I tried all different startup knob positions, snapped
the shutter, turned the thumbwheel, etc. No dice.

jkirk@oz · Feb 26, 2003

jkirk@oz said:
... aaahhh memories.

Now there's a great idea, we should start a thread on some of our funniest stories of the "old days" before they are lost forever. I know it's not S602 related but maybe Marius could set a section aside

Man I could bore a dozen social workers

JKirk

sg10 · Feb 26, 2003

Its not really brave. Brave is infiltrating the enemy compound at 3am with a serrated knife in your teeth. But I digress, anyway...

Yes, I tried it using the single directory as created by the unzip, and also within the complete nested directory structure just to be sure. As far as the instructions in the pdf, maybe I'm missing some of them but all my computer was able to produce was a single page using some broken converted English. There were no real instructions per se, just to format the SM card, then copy directory as named with the software image inside. I did this with no CF inserted, and powered on using every knob/switch combo I could think of, even did some common switch actions after that.

Infact, I know it didn't even reload v1.0 because one thing I tried was to power up in SET(up), then do an immediate Reset. At that point the camera started beeping, because I had sound turned off--meaning nothing was probably loaded upon startup. Or if it was and I couldn't tell, it retained my non-default prefs settings--unlikely I think.

jkirk@oz said:
That was very brave of you to try without a backup plan ready .. we
applaud your brave attemp. It will be a very similar procedure to
Minolta, but obviously different KEY switch positions. I assume you
carried out the sequence as per that website? Created the
directory structure as described? Yes it will take 4-5 secs min
(The Mitsubishi MPU specs are excellent on uploading flash). Even
though we appreciate your "willingness" to try, please wait a few
days until I have all the Hardware sorted out, I should have a MUCH
better grasp of the design. It will turn out to be simple once we
work it out.
JKirk

jkirk@oz said:

sg10 wrote:
I tried it (been thinking about 5MP anyway). It didn't do anything.
No smoke during startup, no busy hourglass, no apparent code
download (seems 4MB would take at least a second or two of
activity), no changes in appearance or function, no anything
difference at all.
Looks like a red herring unless there is some secret switchology
required. I tried all different startup knob positions, snapped
the shutter, turned the thumbwheel, etc. No dice.

Click to expand...

jkirk@oz · Feb 26, 2003

OK, thats a minor setback, and YES we all have the same info at this point. This was never going to be easy project but we will crack it. Things will go faster once I get more details of the hardware, and hopefully the M32R development system.
JKirk

sg10 said:
sg10 wrote:
Its not really brave. Brave is infiltrating the enemy compound at
3am with a serrated knife in your teeth. But I digress, anyway...

Yes, I tried it using the single directory as created by the unzip,
and also within the complete nested directory structure just to be
sure. As far as the instructions in the pdf, maybe I'm missing
some of them but all my computer was able to produce was a single
page using some broken converted English. There were no real
instructions per se, just to format the SM card, then copy
directory as named with the software image inside. I did this with
no CF inserted, and powered on using every knob/switch combo I
could think of, even did some common switch actions after that.

Infact, I know it didn't even reload v1.0 because one thing I tried
was to power up in SET(up), then do an immediate Reset. At that
point the camera started beeping, because I had sound turned
off--meaning nothing was probably loaded upon startup. Or if it
was and I couldn't tell, it retained my non-default prefs
settings--unlikely I think.

chris gunn · Feb 26, 2003

jkirk@oz said:
Use of zoom while shooting video ... 1.5

This is perhaps more difficult than you think.
The focus changes a lot as you zoom does it not?
If you use the zoom, you'll ruin the video.

jkirk@oz said:
ISO800 and ISO1600 in a 1mp Fine or High mode ... 6.0

Softer normal sharpening ... 9.0

Changing the degree of jpg, or sharpening may simply be a single
number/coefficient might it not?

jkirk@oz said:
Focus to infinity menu option like some Sony's have ... 7.0

The focus is presumably different at different zooms, but, you could
probably work out a table for the zoom range, and have an adjusable
variable (different required for different cameras) as well.

--
cheers!

Gunn

jkirk@oz · Feb 26, 2003

Thanks for your input .. answers ..

chris gunn said:
jkirk@oz said:

Use of zoom while shooting video ... 1.5

Click to expand...

This is perhaps more difficult than you think.
The focus changes a lot as you zoom does it not?
If you use the zoom, you'll ruin the video.

Its a mechanical function. To a 200+MIPs 32 Bit RISC it'd be like timing toast

Worst case, you'd drop 1-2 frames. Even Fuji said the "ONLY" reason "THEY" didn't implement it was because it added "motor noise" to the sound. PPFFTT, easy to edit out.

chris gunn said:
chris gunn said:

ISO800 and ISO1600 in a 1mp Fine or High mode ... 6.0

Softer normal sharpening ... 9.0

Click to expand...

Changing the degree of jpg, or sharpening may simply be a single
number/coefficient might it not?

Maybe so BUT remember we have NO source LISTING, just a sea of routines. There is NO MAGIC comments list on how these algorithyms work. In fact I'd UP the rating.

chris gunn said:
chris gunn said:

Focus to infinity menu option like some Sony's have ... 7.0

Click to expand...

The focus is presumably different at different zooms, but, you could
probably work out a table for the zoom range, and have an adjusable
variable (different required for different cameras) as well.

OK U win on that one (kinda). Easy to find the live "current values" and make a table ... 1.5

EXCEPT how do you display it ?? We can't MAKE NEW graphics for reasons above. We'd either need to trash an entry in the SETUP menu (not really an option) or the SHIFT flyout MENU. Both these are TEXT menu's ... 1.5 / 6.0 (graphics)

chris gunn said:
cheers!
Gunn

Folks, Please keep in mind .. we have NO SOURCE LISTING. Even after 30+ yrs, I sometimes look at raw code and ask myself ... "What the f* k do all those numbers mean hehe
By all means, ask questions though.
JKirk

cyberguest · Feb 26, 2003

how would u rate those?

takePicture(){
...............
resetTimer();
.........
}

startup(){
...........
if(adapterFlag != true)
lensOut();
}

shutdown(){
...........
if(adapterFlag != true)
lensBackIn();
...........
}

jkirk@oz · Feb 27, 2003

Finally, Some easy stuff

cyberguest said:
cyberguest wrote:
how would u rate those?

cyberguest said:
takePicture(){
...............
resetTimer();
.........
}
startup(){
...........
if(adapterFlag != true)
lensOut();
}
shutdown(){
...........
if(adapterFlag != true)
lensBackIn();
...........
}

marius100281 · Feb 27, 2003

I can see it now, new mailing list: [email protected]

j/k

jkirk@oz said:
jkirk@oz said:

... aaahhh memories.

Click to expand...

Now there's a great idea, we should start a thread on some of our
funniest stories of the "old days" before they are lost forever. I
know it's not S602 related but maybe Marius could set a section
aside
Man I could bore a dozen social workers
JKirk

--
-marius
Visit the S602Z FAQ: http://www.marius.org/fuji602faq.php
Fuji Forum Mugshot at http://www.fujimugs.com/

Unnamed33 · Feb 27, 2003

Hehe. that 512KB was for my Amiga. Remember the Atari - Amiga wars.

The Amiga was better, lol.

Cheers
mips

PrzemKo said:
Hehe, bragging - huh? I've never did things like that as a pro, but
I had one of school projects in 1988, that was all about
disassembling OS of simple 8080 computer by hand (literally - I had
to write hex codes with my pencil), reverse egineer that and by
guessing all the ports and stuff write my own OS. It worked at the
first attempt (well, at least didn't hag up...). What else - little
tricks, like adding another 512 KB of RAM to my Atari ST (surface
mounted chips and standard, big iron), making one working "combo"
out of two damaged soundchips (they had malfunctioning different
output ports/pins, so it worked), or fixing fried GTIA chip from
8-bit Atari with a single resistor (autofire on joysticks didn't
work though...). Old days...

PrzemKo · Feb 27, 2003

But Atari was faster, had an excellent MIDI port, better hi-res monitor (70Hz vsync in 1987...), DMA port which was simplified SCSI interface (i personally modded one of DMA-SCSI adapters to make it work with 8 devices simultaneously - it was constrained just to ID0 - took just couple of chips like demultiplexers and 7402 or something. ofcourse after the mod it was parity independent - PE-enabled devices could work with PE-disabled on the same bus...). Besides, I could use a plain printer cable with it (try this with Amiga hehe...), had integrated power supply and a nicer logo

)

Heh... almost got warmed up with this

)

mips said:
Hehe. that 512KB was for my Amiga. Remember the Atari - Amiga wars.

The Amiga was better, lol.

Cheers

PrzemKo · Feb 27, 2003

My uneducated guess is, that perhaps it won't flash if for example camera is on battery power - people at service would rather use external power supply. Power failure during flashing would be quite painfull, and batteries are more likely to fail than your power plant, especially if you are using UPS. We'll know for sure when someone will get the access to right tools, allowing to analyse just Fuji's code, not the entire OS.

Unnamed33 · Feb 27, 2003

Ok, so you had a midi port, big deal...

Geez, this brings back memories. If this was about 10-15 yrs ago this discussion would have turned into a major argument. I think we are wiser now. Anyway all we have left now are the boring PC clones..

Cheers
mips

PrzemKo said:
took just couple of chips like demultiplexers and 7402 or

something. ofcourse after the mod it was parity independent -
PE-enabled devices could work with PE-disabled on the same bus...).
Besides, I could use a plain printer cable with it (try this with
Amiga hehe...), had integrated power supply and a nicer logo )

Heh... almost got warmed up with this )

mips said:

Hehe. that 512KB was for my Amiga. Remember the Atari - Amiga wars.

The Amiga was better, lol.

Cheers

Click to expand...

jkirk@oz · Feb 27, 2003

Yep, there'll be a few in-house tricks.

Well the "industry standard" way of doing things would be - initial Flash "dump" via JTAG port, including diagnostics test of the unit. Service ppl will DEFINITELY use an external UPS. I doubt they'd "force" customers to use both AC and Battery pack, but you're right, it'd be a smart "lock-out". well, just waiting for the M32R development system quote, doubt it'll be over $1K. Until I open her up this weekend, and unless anyone already has development tools, we just speculate and wait

JKirk

PrzemKo said:
PrzemKo wrote:
My uneducated guess is, that perhaps it won't flash if for example
camera is on battery power - people at service would rather use
external power supply. Power failure during flashing would be quite
painfull, and batteries are more likely to fail than your power
plant, especially if you are using UPS. We'll know for sure when
someone will get the access to right tools, allowing to analyse
just Fuji's code, not the entire OS.

jkirk@oz · Feb 27, 2003

Aaaaahh the Atari / Amiga wars

They were fun, MAN that data transfer rate on the SCSI bus could "still" put IBM to shame, 10-15 yrs ago as you say

JKirk

Unnamed33 said:
mips wrote:
Ok, so you had a midi port, big deal...

Unnamed33 said:
Geez, this brings back memories. If this was about 10-15 yrs ago
this discussion would have turned into a major argument. I think we
are wiser now. Anyway all we have left now are the boring PC
clones..

mips

Unnamed33 said:
Unnamed33 said:

PrzemKo wrote:
But Atari was faster, had an excellent MIDI port, better hi-res
monitor (70Hz vsync in 1987...), DMA port which was simplified SCSI
interface (i personally modded one of DMA-SCSI adapters to make it
work with 8 devices simultaneously - it was constrained just to ID0

took just couple of chips like demultiplexers and 7402 or

something. ofcourse after the mod it was parity independent -
PE-enabled devices could work with PE-disabled on the same bus...).
Besides, I could use a plain printer cable with it (try this with
Amiga hehe...), had integrated power supply and a nicer logo )

Heh... almost got warmed up with this )

mips said:

Hehe. that 512KB was for my Amiga. Remember the Atari - Amiga wars.

The Amiga was better, lol.

Cheers

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

PrzemKo · Feb 27, 2003

mips said:
Ok, so you had a midi port, big deal...

Well, at the time of introduction (an for many, many years after that) it was one of very few MIDI ports with optoelectronic 'coupling'. Thanks to that you had virtually zero problems with connecting your whole studio to it. Doing that with other computer types usually was corelated with a major headache, especially if you were a musician, not a geek with multimeter. This port could also be used to build a mini-LAN - slow, but cheap.

Unnamed33 said:
Geez, this brings back memories. If this was about 10-15 yrs ago
this discussion would have turned into a major argument.

Not really. Some people could argue forever, but I usually tried to make my points and let the other side do it as well. Sure, Amiga was cooler in many respects, but wasn't without flaws, and ST has some fantastic software. I remember couple of CAD and vector drawing apps, that could've been used even today, and one DTP proggy (Calamus) which has features still to be introduced on modern platforms, like soft-ripping (PC version of Calamus never made a big splash)

Unnamed33 said:
I think we
are wiser now. Anyway all we have left now are the boring PC
clones..

Hmm... what about 3dfx-nVidia and nVidia-ATI wars? AMD versus Intel? I've heard they are even fighting over using or not using certain programming techniques... Humans...

Barry Watzman · Feb 27, 2003

If Fuji made it open source ....

Sales of the camera would go through the roof
Tech support and warranty cost would also go through the roof

Of course, parts of the firmware are licensed and Fuji can't make it open source even if they want to.

cyberguest said:
1. when adpater setting is on (tube attached), lens should stay out
when camera is turned off.
2. sticky self-timer (doesn't get cancelled after taking each shot)
3. self-timer for multi-exposures (i am pretty sure it's a design
flaw by fuji)
4. auto focus and zoom in movie mode
5. auto switch to SM if CF is full
6. distance approximation for manual focus

jkirk@oz said:

Before you guys get carried away, here is an estimate of difficulty
for various "features" requested. 1=easy,10=infinite difficulty
(exponential curve)

Fix CARD ERROR when switching from CF to SM ... e.e (see note)

Keep/reset file numbering ... 0.1

On-camera flash available even with external flash on ... 1.2

Use of zoom while shooting video ... 1.5

And a tap dance while chewing gum mode ... e.e

ISO800 and ISO1600 in a 1mp Fine or High mode ... 6.0

3mp High ... 8.0

CF/SM switching via a SHIFT shortcut ... 1.5

Softer normal sharpening ... 9.0

Histograms for bracketed shots previews .... 9.5

Focus to infinity menu option like some Sony's have ... 7.0

30s & 60s shutters ... 1.5

Flash fires at the beginning or at the end of the shutter open

time ... 1.5/4.0

AE lock should stay on after just pressing the button once and

off after making the shot or pressing the button again ... 2.5

And what I really want is a VR F2 lens in a fixed tube ... e.e

Defaulting back to 6mp fine after using ISO800 or 1600! ... 1.0

/ time lapse with configurable intervals ... 2.0/3.0
/ configurable delay on continuous shoot mode ... 2.0/3.0
/ native 3.x mp tiff ... 9.9

() I don't have that error? maybe it's a fault?
JKirk

Click to expand...

Barry Watzman · Feb 27, 2003

If you don't think that people from Fuji read this board, then you are almost certainly wrong.

Still, by not actually contacting them outright, it may be possible to maintain "plausible deniability".

However, lots of times there are enthusiasts inside the company who really, deep down inside, wouldn't mind if certain things "just happened". Without any involvement on the part of Fuji or any employees (of course).

jkirk@oz said:
jkirk@oz said:

cyberguest wrote:

Click to expand...

http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epartners/MailTo.jsp?returnTo=ContactUs.jsp&contact=CONTACT_US_DETAIL_464160

jkirk@oz said:

email fujifilm see if that does any help...

Click to expand...

S602 - new firmware?

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