7 point AF

Frederic Villemin · Feb 27, 2003

I think that topic may be forgotten by people rushing to talk about the new 10D but it is just a little question :

with my D30, i usually focus only with the focus point in the middle of the viewfinder, and then i compose my picture..

Is it useful for me to have 7 point AF if i decide to only focus on the middle one ? is 7 point AF more precise in my case or is it only when you let the camera automatically choose the focus subject ?

Bryan Carnathan · Feb 27, 2003

Bryan
----
http://www.save-u.com
http://www.nationalticket.com

josef armendariz · Feb 27, 2003

Ha. That's funny Frederic. I found all the talk about having a gazillion focus points redundant, as like you, when I do use autofocus, I only use the one center one so that I can focus on the eyes, then recompose.

Maybe when shooting groups or action, but when shooting individuals and portraits, all you need is one. I could actually use just one, big, center focus point and I would happy.

Josef

Frederic Villemin said:
I think that topic may be forgotten by people rushing to talk about
the new 10D but it is just a little question :

with my D30, i usually focus only with the focus point in the
middle of the viewfinder, and then i compose my picture..

Is it useful for me to have 7 point AF if i decide to only focus on
the middle one ? is 7 point AF more precise in my case or is it
only when you let the camera automatically choose the focus subject
?

Toshi · Feb 27, 2003

I think that part of the appeal is that the metering will be more accurate if you have your shot composed in its final form when setting focus.

josef armendariz said:
Maybe when shooting groups or action, but when shooting individuals
and portraits, all you need is one. I could actually use just one,
big, center focus point and I would happy.

Josef

Frederic Villemin said:

I think that topic may be forgotten by people rushing to talk about
the new 10D but it is just a little question :

with my D30, i usually focus only with the focus point in the
middle of the viewfinder, and then i compose my picture..

Is it useful for me to have 7 point AF if i decide to only focus on
the middle one ? is 7 point AF more precise in my case or is it
only when you let the camera automatically choose the focus subject
?

Click to expand...

Roger Bloemers · Feb 27, 2003

I have used auto focus for many years and with several cameras, and I also only use the center focus point. Focus then recompose. Much faster and more accurate. However, I think a "better made" auto focus shows up as being faster when using auto focus in that way,IE just using the center point. I have the Eos 3 the 7 and the D60. There is a big difference in auto focus speed using "just" the center focus point between the those three cameras. Roger

Toshi said:
josef armendariz said:

Maybe when shooting groups or action, but when shooting individuals
and portraits, all you need is one. I could actually use just one,
big, center focus point and I would happy.

Josef

Frederic Villemin said:

I think that topic may be forgotten by people rushing to talk about
the new 10D but it is just a little question :

with my D30, i usually focus only with the focus point in the
middle of the viewfinder, and then i compose my picture..

Is it useful for me to have 7 point AF if i decide to only focus on
the middle one ? is 7 point AF more precise in my case or is it
only when you let the camera automatically choose the focus subject
?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Roger Bloemers

kalahari · Feb 27, 2003

If you compose the shot and then focus. The eye control allows you to pick the focus point. The light metering now takes the final shot into account with extra importance given to the focusing point.

This leads to almost forgetting the whole focus & recompose routine. Going back to a camera like that can be very annoying. Of course it has to work for it to be useful. I have found that the N80 always wants to pick some edge to focus on -- e.g. the building behind the person -- a very annoying problem.

So in the end, I would say it is great as long as it works. Especially when looking at the light metering advantage.

Frederic Villemin said:
I think that topic may be forgotten by people rushing to talk about
the new 10D but it is just a little question :

with my D30, i usually focus only with the focus point in the
middle of the viewfinder, and then i compose my picture..

Is it useful for me to have 7 point AF if i decide to only focus on
the middle one ? is 7 point AF more precise in my case or is it
only when you let the camera automatically choose the focus subject
?

Doug Brown · Feb 27, 2003

Don't forget the effect that having 7 focusing points will have on the behaviour of E-TTL flash units which seem to require that the point in use be centred on the area of the photo you are exposing for.

This could be one of the major benefits of 7 focus points , better flash accuracy?

Doug B
Torontowide.com

Mishkin · Feb 27, 2003

If you focus on eyes with central focusing point and recompose, the plane of sharp focus rotates with the camera and eyes are no longer in that plane. Therefore, with shallow DOF eyes will look soft. Think about it. It's a simple geometry/optics thing.

josef armendariz said:
Maybe when shooting groups or action, but when shooting individuals
and portraits, all you need is one. I could actually use just one,
big, center focus point and I would happy.

Josef

Frederic Villemin said:

I think that topic may be forgotten by people rushing to talk about
the new 10D but it is just a little question :

with my D30, i usually focus only with the focus point in the
middle of the viewfinder, and then i compose my picture..

Is it useful for me to have 7 point AF if i decide to only focus on
the middle one ? is 7 point AF more precise in my case or is it
only when you let the camera automatically choose the focus subject
?

Click to expand...

Mishkin · Feb 27, 2003

Mishkin said:
josef armendariz said:

Maybe when shooting groups or action, but when shooting individuals
and portraits, all you need is one. I could actually use just one,
big, center focus point and I would happy.

Josef

Frederic Villemin said:

I think that topic may be forgotten by people rushing to talk about
the new 10D but it is just a little question :

with my D30, i usually focus only with the focus point in the
middle of the viewfinder, and then i compose my picture..

Is it useful for me to have 7 point AF if i decide to only focus on
the middle one ? is 7 point AF more precise in my case or is it
only when you let the camera automatically choose the focus subject
?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Darren Krakowski · Feb 27, 2003

I have an Elan 7E. It focuses fastest with eye control turned off, and when the center focus point is selected. My understanding is that the center point is a cross-type sensor and the others aren't. The exposure calculation takes the focus point into consideration when partial metering is selected (you have to set a custom function for this). You can easily demonstrate this by setting the exposure mode to partial metering and putting a gray card on a white sheet. You will see the exposure change accordingly when the focus point on the card is selected versus when a focus point on the sheet is selected.

I have typically been pleased with the Elan 7's performance in conjunction with the 550ex, and never gave much thought to which focus point was selected. I do remember reading something about the AF assist on the external flashes not being compatible with some of the focus points, I think because they were outside of the area covered by the AF assist beam.

Having said all that, 80% of the time I use the center focus point because it is faster. Center the subject, focus, AEL, re-compose, shoot. A lot of the time it is easier to do that than goof around with the other focus points.

Regards,
Darren

Doug Brown said:
Don't forget the effect that having 7 focusing points will have on
the behaviour of E-TTL flash units which seem to require that the
point in use be centred on the area of the photo you are exposing
for.
This could be one of the major benefits of 7 focus points , better
flash accuracy?

Doug B
Torontowide.com

josef armendariz · Feb 27, 2003

Uh, yeah. 15 years of focusing on eyes, dang...all those soft pictures. Maybe I and about half a dozen other professional photographers I know are defying the laws of geometry because I've always gotten some pretty tack pictures, but i'm a photographer, not a math wiz and in this case, ignorance is bliss and so far it's worked.

j

Mishkin said:
josef armendariz said:

Maybe when shooting groups or action, but when shooting individuals
and portraits, all you need is one. I could actually use just one,
big, center focus point and I would happy.

Josef

Frederic Villemin said:

I think that topic may be forgotten by people rushing to talk about
the new 10D but it is just a little question :

with my D30, i usually focus only with the focus point in the
middle of the viewfinder, and then i compose my picture..

Is it useful for me to have 7 point AF if i decide to only focus on
the middle one ? is 7 point AF more precise in my case or is it
only when you let the camera automatically choose the focus subject
?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Darren Krakowski · Feb 27, 2003

Hmmm, seems to me people have been taking photos with SLRs for what, about 30, 40 years? No multiple focusing points on manual focus cameras with split prism focusing screens. You had to focus and recompose. If the slight movement of the camera is enough to throw the eyes out of focus, you need to pick a different aperture. If your tolerances are that tight, the eyes are sharp and the hair and ears aren't (unless that is what you are trying to do).

Mishkin said:
josef armendariz said:

Maybe when shooting groups or action, but when shooting individuals
and portraits, all you need is one. I could actually use just one,
big, center focus point and I would happy.

Josef

Frederic Villemin said:

I think that topic may be forgotten by people rushing to talk about
the new 10D but it is just a little question :

with my D30, i usually focus only with the focus point in the
middle of the viewfinder, and then i compose my picture..

Is it useful for me to have 7 point AF if i decide to only focus on
the middle one ? is 7 point AF more precise in my case or is it
only when you let the camera automatically choose the focus subject
?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--

Regards,
Darren

David Yule · Feb 27, 2003

90% of the time I find using the single point ok, but sometimes a low contract subject ends up under the focusing point so no lock. Motorbikes cause the most grief, especially if the lean angle creates a shadow and the rider is wearing black leathers.

7 focusing points would help, the 1D wide area focus would pretty much eliminate the problem.

Does anyone know what D60/10D AI servo tracking is rated to for distance work (30 meters plus)?

--
http://www.fp-photo.com

Niklas Ferm · Feb 27, 2003

Hi Mishkin,

I've noticed exactly that happening, when taking portraits (close-ups really) with a D60 and a 50/1.8. The ears get tack sharp and not the eyes;-)

I guess what the other folks are saying is that if you see that you're probably too close and/or using the wrong lense and/or using the wrong aperture.

Be that as it may, you're right, not wrong, which was more or less implied here!

(And yes, I'm not a pro photographer, but I do know my trig;-)

Regards

niklas

Mishkin said:
josef armendariz said:

Maybe when shooting groups or action, but when shooting individuals
and portraits, all you need is one. I could actually use just one,
big, center focus point and I would happy.

Josef

Frederic Villemin said:

I think that topic may be forgotten by people rushing to talk about
the new 10D but it is just a little question :

with my D30, i usually focus only with the focus point in the
middle of the viewfinder, and then i compose my picture..

Is it useful for me to have 7 point AF if i decide to only focus on
the middle one ? is 7 point AF more precise in my case or is it
only when you let the camera automatically choose the focus subject
?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Mishkin · Feb 27, 2003

"tack" depends on what is final output size. If 8x10, CoC in film/sensor plane is typical figure of 0.025mm for 1x crop or 0.019mm for 1.6x crop. However, if you want eyes tack sharp on PIXEL LEVEL, then CoC must be about 0.007mm for D60. That makes tolerances for critical focusing significantly tighter.

josef armendariz said:
j

Mishkin said:

josef armendariz said:

Maybe when shooting groups or action, but when shooting individuals
and portraits, all you need is one. I could actually use just one,
big, center focus point and I would happy.

Josef

Frederic Villemin said:

I think that topic may be forgotten by people rushing to talk about
the new 10D but it is just a little question :

with my D30, i usually focus only with the focus point in the
middle of the viewfinder, and then i compose my picture..

Is it useful for me to have 7 point AF if i decide to only focus on
the middle one ? is 7 point AF more precise in my case or is it
only when you let the camera automatically choose the focus subject
?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Richard Seaman · Feb 27, 2003

Frederic,

The 7 point AF isn't important if one photographs basically static objects, but for AI servo tracking of moving objects like flying birds or aircraft, and sports photography, it's a significant advantage, and to me the most appealing aspect of the 10D (apart from the cheaper price).

Last year I bought a D60, and was very disappointed by its ability to track birds and aircraft. Even if you can keep the center AF point squarely on the subject, that doesn't mean there's enough contrast for the camera to accurately focus. I think the 10D will probably do a much better job in these circumstances. I certainly felt shafted by Canon's decision to put such a lousy AF system into the D60. If I'd been more experienced with auto focus photography then I'd probably have realized that 3 AF points stretched along the center line of the frame wasn't going to be up to the task, but I'd just moved from Pentax cameras with manual focus long lens and other manual focus lens, so I didn't know any better.

In the end I bought a 1Ds, which of course has 45 AF points. I've just come back from 2 months overseas having shot 24 gigabytes of photos which I haven't had a chance to sort through yet, but initial indications are that I'm getting shots which simply wouldn't have been possible with the D60, such as this one:

I'll happily hang on to the D60 to use for macro shots (which I focus manually, anyway), or for shooting landscapes and other stationary objects.

Richard.

Frederic Villemin said:
I think that topic may be forgotten by people rushing to talk about
the new 10D but it is just a little question :

with my D30, i usually focus only with the focus point in the
middle of the viewfinder, and then i compose my picture..

Is it useful for me to have 7 point AF if i decide to only focus on
the middle one ? is 7 point AF more precise in my case or is it
only when you let the camera automatically choose the focus subject
?

--
http://www.richard-seaman.com/

Richard Seaman · Feb 27, 2003

folks,

Sorry, I thought I was embedding a link to that bird photograph in my previous email, I didn't realize I was embedding the bird photograph itself - I didn't mean to push such a large photo down your throat!

Richard.

http://www.richard-seaman.com/

DDitzler · Feb 27, 2003

I have shot a few thousand images with the D30, D60 and 1D and there is a big difference on the amount of focusing points depending on the type of work you are doing. I shoot a lot of sports and often I don't have the time to recompose the shot after I get a focus lock.

For example I was shooting some marathons last fall and the D30, D60 and 1D all did an excelent job with the 1D almost overkill. It was so fast that getting a good sharp photo was easy. With the D30 and D60 you had to be more careful.

Then I had to shoot another type of race where there were two people runng as partners. I did not have the 1D for this race and it was tough. It was very difficult to get because I had the camera on servo mode for focusing which it would do fine on one person or the other. I was shooting portrait orientation so usually none of the focus areas were on the people running when the shot was perfectly composed. If I switched to one shot focus then they were out of focus by the time I reframed. I basically kept the servo mode on and framed one runner then paned quicky to get the other runner right before I squeezed the trigger. To make matters worse the race was very un organized and our "exclusive" area on the course was overrun by other competiors waiting fro theri partner. It was a cluster f@ck! I had horrible shots from that day and the camera did not make it any easier.

I also recently shot an iceboating race and again there was no boat in the auto focus points when the shot was composed. They were moving WAY too fast to recompse the shot. I ended up just shooting a lot of tightly framed shots and chopping off the boat or switching to manual focus and hoping for the best or shooting when I knew they were in focus.

In both of these examples (and others) I had to greatly change my shooting style and give up better shots just because the camera would not do what I wanted it to do. I felt hevilly restricted by the camera. That is one of the main reasons I welcome the new focusing system in the 10D.

Of course I could have used manual focus and tried by best but for a lot of things it is just not practicle. I have never been unhapy with the quality of the images with the D30 or D60 and the price is good too. I didn't need the speed or the build quality of the 1D but that focusing was something I greatly needed.

If I am not shooting sports then I find the D30 or D60 great for almost anyhing and the focus sufficiant in all but 5% of the situations.

cheers
-david

hoang nguyen · Feb 27, 2003

I can't speak for everyone but, I switched to center point focus on my D30/D60 because the 3 points werent working well.
On my EOS10s the 3 points worked perfectly.
So having the "better AF" means the 7 points will work better,

meaning the AF is better because of other factors , not because it's got 7 points.

The 7 points allows it to be versatile, vertical/horizontal and so on. I don't think it would have help the D30/D60 AF system even if they had more than 3 points.
They probably don't have enough processing power to use more focusing points.

IMHO, clear as mud?

Frederic Villemin said:
I think that topic may be forgotten by people rushing to talk about
the new 10D but it is just a little question :

with my D30, i usually focus only with the focus point in the
middle of the viewfinder, and then i compose my picture..

Is it useful for me to have 7 point AF if i decide to only focus on
the middle one ? is 7 point AF more precise in my case or is it
only when you let the camera automatically choose the focus subject
?

--
Hoang Nguyen
http://www.onemodelplace.com/photographer_list.cfm?P_ID=6257

jonlg · Feb 27, 2003

I'm interseted in EOS 30 owners and how theirs performs in AI Servo mode.
How good, how bad.
John

7 point AF

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