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G3 Direct Sun Bug - something new...

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Marko A.I.

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Ok, this is a second try - I'm sorry about the inconvenience. And to the topic:

A couple of days ago we tested two Canon G3s side by side shooting at a bright, sunny target. With my G3 about 10 of 12 shots had this "direct sun bug". But, with the other G3 ONLY one of the pictures experienced the effect. This makes me wonder... how can this effect vary from camera to another? It seems to me, it's not a firmware bug : .

Do you have any new information on this case? If you don't know what this "direct sun bug" is, visit this link to my site:

http://photogallery.jwdx.com/G3DirectSunBug

... or do a search in this forum using keywords like "direct sun" and "G3".

Yours,

Marko

---
Check my Canon G3 Gallery at: http://photogallery.jwdx.com
 
You don't see a bug ? There's nothing unusual at the top of those photos on my page - a horizontal stripe or something ;) ? You may say it's not a bug, but it's something very annoying and it does not exist in all the camera models. And it definitely should not appear so easily - the day even doesn't have to be as bright as presented in the example pictures to make the effect show itself.

Marko A.I.

---
Check my Canon G3 Gallery at: http://photogallery.jwdx.com
---
Chris Beney said:
I see no bug.

Chris Beney
Click to expand...
 
Marko A.I. said:
You don't see a bug ? There's nothing unusual at the top of those
photos on my page - a horizontal stripe or something ;) ?
Click to expand...
Sorry, I missed it. I had been looking at the six star effect and the dust/reflection spot, hadn't noticed the dark bit was meant to be part of the photo. Very odd.

I have never seen it on mine. Did you use a polaroid filter? I normally would when shooting into the sun. This page has a recent sun shot (resolution reduced for web page). It is actually a panoramic join but none of the three frames had a line.

http://www.badfa.org.uk/test/canonlores.htm

Sorry I didn't see it, I am a bit of a small-print man and have been known to not see newspaper headlines.
Chris Beney
 
Marko A.I. said:
Marko A.I.

---
Check my Canon G3 Gallery at: http://photogallery.jwdx.com
---
Chris Beney said:
I see no bug.

Chris Beney
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
This bugs been covered a ew times. I've never tried a sunset shot yet but it is somewhat dissappointing that even a few people are getting it. Too bad because that second shot on your page is gorgeous BTW. It's a shame the top of the pic is corrupted.

--
Andj
Canon G3 and former S30 Owner
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/andj/
 
Marko A.I. said:
Ok, this is a second try - I'm sorry about the inconvenience. And
to the topic:

A couple of days ago we tested two Canon G3s side by side shooting
at a bright, sunny target. With my G3 about 10 of 12 shots had this
"direct sun bug". But, with the other G3 ONLY one of the pictures
experienced the effect. This makes me wonder... how can this effect
vary from camera to another? It seems to me, it's not a firmware
bug : .

Do you have any new information on this case? If you don't know
what this "direct sun bug" is, visit this link to my site:

http://photogallery.jwdx.com/G3DirectSunBug

... or do a search in this forum using keywords like "direct sun"
and "G3".

Yours,

Marko

---
Check my Canon G3 Gallery at: http://photogallery.jwdx.com
---
Click to expand...
Hi

You discovered a problem called "Optical Black Blooming". It happens when a pixel gets too much light and sort of infects other pixels close to it. I am sure, somone can explain this better than me :-) .

I found a review about this:
http://www.digit.no/Tester/canon_g3/ps_g3_bildekvalitet.htm

As you can see, it is in Norwegian :-) . In short the review explains how you can solve this problem by simply enabling your ND-filter in the camera.

Perhaps you should try that. Besides, the reviewer says that the G3 has the worst "Optical Black Blooming" he has ever seen in a digital camera.

Kent Christensen
Denmark
 
Hi,

I shot those example pictures using an UV-lens, but I've seen this effect with and without the lens. I also got it once indoors shooting out of the window, so the cold weather wasn't the reason. Maybe I'll just have to live with it. Well, I'm happy there is this ND-filter.

BTW, your shot was really nice! The exposure (or the post processing) was perfect to capture the mood.

Yours,

Marko

---
Check my Canon G3 Gallery at: http://photogallery.jwdx.com
---
Chris Beney said:
Sorry, I missed it. I had been looking at the six star effect and
the dust/reflection spot, hadn't noticed the dark bit was meant to
be part of the photo. Very odd.

I have never seen it on mine. Did you use a polaroid filter? I
normally would when shooting into the sun. This page has a recent
sun shot (resolution reduced for web page). It is actually a
panoramic join but none of the three frames had a line.

http://www.badfa.org.uk/test/canonlores.htm

Sorry I didn't see it, I am a bit of a small-print man and have
been known to not see newspaper headlines.
Chris Beney
Click to expand...
 
The bug really has generated a lot of discussion. The thing I'm trying to point out here is, that the effect does show itself a lot easier on some individual G3s than the others. Should I get my G3 repaired to achieve the acceptable level or what? Hard to do that decision because so many people are suffering from the same effect in some extent.

It's nice you liked the picture with the bug - the bugless one can be found from my gallery :). I'll be adding some new, snowy pictures in a few days.

Yours,

Marko
--
Check my Canon G3 Gallery at: http://photogallery.jwdx.com
---
Andj said:
This bugs been covered a ew times. I've never tried a sunset shot
yet but it is somewhat dissappointing that even a few people are
getting it. Too bad because that second shot on your page is
gorgeous BTW. It's a shame the top of the pic is corrupted.

--
Andj
Canon G3 and former S30 Owner
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/andj/
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the link! This is the first time I've seen someone naming this particular problem. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I'd still like to know why some G3s experience this problem so much easier than the others. Right now I'm so tempted to put the camera under repair. The local official Canon repair shop even said they've never seen anything like that, and "You camera needs to be repaired". There goes the reliability...

The ND-filter doesn't totally block the effect. I've experienced this optical black blooming a couple of times with the ND-filter, too.

Yours,

Marko

---
Check my Canon G3 Gallery at: http://photogallery.jwdx.com
---
Kent Christensen said:
Hi

You discovered a problem called "Optical Black Blooming". It
happens when a pixel gets too much light and sort of infects other
pixels close to it. I am sure, somone can explain this better than
me :-) .

I found a review about this:
http://www.digit.no/Tester/canon_g3/ps_g3_bildekvalitet.htm

As you can see, it is in Norwegian :-) . In short the review
explains how you can solve this problem by simply enabling your
ND-filter in the camera.
Perhaps you should try that. Besides, the reviewer says that the G3
has the worst "Optical Black Blooming" he has ever seen in a
digital camera.

Kent Christensen
Denmark
Click to expand...
 
In film photography this is called the blind user bug. Each and every photography book specifically advises NOT to take pictures of the sun in the sky, especially using SLR cameras and especially not using the telephoto lens or long zoom position. Reason 1: it can damage your eye. Reason 2: it can damage your camera. Of course, G3 users don't use the viewfinder because the lens blocks much of the view, so your eyes will survive, but it is theoretically possible to damage the sensor as well.

So, has anyone taken a picture of a laser yet? Seen anything lately?
Marko A.I. said:
Ok, this is a second try - I'm sorry about the inconvenience. And
to the topic:

A couple of days ago we tested two Canon G3s side by side shooting
at a bright, sunny target. With my G3 about 10 of 12 shots had this
"direct sun bug". But, with the other G3 ONLY one of the pictures
experienced the effect. This makes me wonder... how can this effect
vary from camera to another? It seems to me, it's not a firmware
bug : .

Do you have any new information on this case? If you don't know
what this "direct sun bug" is, visit this link to my site:

http://photogallery.jwdx.com/G3DirectSunBug

... or do a search in this forum using keywords like "direct sun"
and "G3".

Yours,

Marko

---
Check my Canon G3 Gallery at: http://photogallery.jwdx.com
---
Click to expand...
 
This topic has been discussed in several threads before. In every thread there has been a few people talking about dangers of staring at sun. I'm sure most of the people reporting this kind of behavior of their G3s understand it is not healthy for your eyes to look/shoot at sun. Despite the fact, I appreciate your concern.

This effect is a bit more severe than you may think. In fact, I'm sure EVERY photographer has taken a few pictures that would cause this effect using the G3s I've been testing. As I said earlier, you don't have to point straight at sun to experience the effect (although the most of the sample pictures are like that).

And BTW - where could I find a laser.... Maybe next week I'll post a few macro, full zoom shots of a CD-RW -drive burning a disk at high speed with covers open ;).

Yours,

Marko
Andrus Suitsu said:
In film photography this is called the blind user bug. Each and
every photography book specifically advises NOT to take pictures of
the sun in the sky, especially using SLR cameras and especially not
using the telephoto lens or long zoom position. Reason 1: it can
damage your eye. Reason 2: it can damage your camera. Of course, G3
users don't use the viewfinder because the lens blocks much of the
view, so your eyes will survive, but it is theoretically possible
to damage the sensor as well.

So, has anyone taken a picture of a laser yet? Seen anything lately?
Click to expand...
 
Marko A.I. said:
The ND-filter doesn't totally block the effect. I've experienced
this optical black blooming a couple of times with the ND-filter,
too.
Click to expand...
Well an ND filter only really allows a wider aperture (with perhaps less of the 'starring' effect on the sun itself because of the iris itself). The shadows may then get underexposed.

But a polarising filter may actually reduce the dynamic range, certainly it can be set to darken sheen without significally affecting the rest. What I am not sure about is whether the direct orb of the sun contains polarised light and so whether the polarising filter can prevent gross overload of the sensor.

I have just tried it, and it seems to make no difference but the sun is hazy. Does anyone know?

In any event a polarising filter can substitute for a ND filter, no need with the G3 and its built-in ND, but useful for cameras without this (eg G2).
Chris Beney
 
Chris Beney said:
But a polarising filter may actually reduce the dynamic range,
certainly it can be set to darken sheen without significally
affecting the rest. What I am not sure about is whether the direct
orb of the sun contains polarised light and so whether the
polarising filter can prevent gross overload of the sensor.
I have just tried it, and it seems to make no difference but the
sun is hazy. Does anyone know?
In any event a polarising filter can substitute for a ND filter, no
need with the G3 and its built-in ND, but useful for cameras
without this (eg G2).
Chris Beney
Click to expand...
A few points about polarizers. One, they have no "polarizing filter" effect on direct sunlight, only reflected sunlight off a surface. The reflected light tends to be polarized and so the filter can be set 90 degrees to that polarization to reduce the light level from the reflections. Two, they do not reduce dynamic range but they do cut the overall amount of light in a scene. Not nearly as much as the ND filter. Shooting directly at the sun can overload the CCD and cause strange things to happen. I would not say that is a fault of the camera - it is being used outside its design parameters.

Larry
 
Marko A.I. said:
This makes me wonder... how can this effect
vary from camera to another? It seems to me, it's not a firmware
bug : .
Click to expand...
Hi Marko,

since no one else posted about your basic question, thought I'd give it a shot.

I don't know that much about CCD fabrication, but I used to work in an Intel fab for memory products (static RAM) some years ago. I'm assuming the same principles apply, in that I imagine the CCD sensor is fabricated using photolithographic techniques. (I.e., it's made like layers in a PC "paint" software package; you lay down successive layers on top of each other to build the final product). If so, then there are two key parameters that can be unique to each CCD sensor (and hence, G3) produced: the alignment of the photolithographic layers, and the defects in the sensor.

The alignment of the various layers will be unique to each wafer. So the alignment of the layers in the CCD sensor of your G3 won't be exactly the same as the next guy's. Why does that matter? Well, again I'm speculating, but perhaps as the alignment gets worse, there is a decrease in the insulating ability of the insulating wells between photodetector sites. (See, for example, http://www.bythom.com/ccds.htm ). Maybe you have a sensor that is on the edge of acceptable alignments (or outside of spec, for all I know). The insulating ability of your wells is lower, and so you get the spillover more easily.

It is also possible that there is simply a defect in your sensor, unrelated to alignment problems, that basically has the same effect.

Either way, it is easy for me to understand how your G3 might not perform as well as some other G3 in conditions where the sensor is really being pushed to the limit -- trying to accumulate huge numbers of photoelectrons by shooting such an intense light source.

It's your camera, not mine, but if it were me: 1) I'd try to find a reproducable way of triggering the effect. I.e., how about a 150 watt tungston lightbulb shot with wideish aperature and slowish time from X feet away? If you get some standard test that always triggers the "bug", then other people can try it with their G3s, and also, you can check any repair to see if it actually helped. 2) Personally I'd take up the offer for a repair if that involved replacing the CCD sensor. Especially if other people try their G3s with the test and yours seems more prone to this problem than others. You might get one with better alignment, if yours is iffy, or you might get one without the defect that's causing the problem, if that's the case. If you have a way of triggering the error it might be helpful to the repair people, and then you can make sure any repair has actually made a difference.

Just as a final thought, with the memory products, the effects of marginal alignment or sub-critical defects wasn't necessarily to make the device fail, it was to decrease the useful operating range (usually in temperature, in that case. For example, it wouldn't run over a military-spec temperature range, but would over a consumer-spec temperature range). You might have an "in-spec" camera, but from your gallery you obviously are a sophisticated user who is pushing the envelope (of light intensity, in this case). Trying to get a better particular sensor might be sensible in your case.
 
Hi,

Thanks for those ideas. It's clear you know what you are talking about. This is a issue only a bunch of people are able to comment to. Partly because they don't suffer the effect or they just don't have any better technical knowledge on CCDs than I do.

I'll just have to see if this thing gets worse or still annoys me after a couple of months. I'll post an update if I get to do some more precise tests.

Yours,

Marko
---
Check my Canon G3 Gallery at: http://photogallery.jwdx.com
---
Dwip said:
I don't know that much about CCD fabrication, but I used to work in
an Intel fab for memory products (static RAM) some years ago. I'm
assuming the same principles apply, in that I imagine the CCD
sensor is fabricated using photolithographic techniques. (I.e.,
it's made like layers in a PC "paint" software package; you lay
down successive layers on top of each other to build the final
product). If so, then there are two key parameters that can be
unique to each CCD sensor (and hence, G3) produced: the alignment
of the photolithographic layers, and the defects in the sensor......
Click to expand...
 
I think this a an issue Canon should be commenting on. It may happen on many camera models, but this far the G3, and apparently S45 are among the worst performers from this point of view.

You've got some serious sun shots in your gallery :). If those photos were taken using my G3, all of those pics would have the bug..

Yours,

Marko
---
Check my Canon G3 Gallery at: http://photogallery.jwdx.com
---
dimka13 said:
I have Canon S45. And I have this bug too.
You can look it at http://www.pbase.com/image/13798120/original

Best regards, Dmitry.
Click to expand...
 
I'm getting similar results, but mostly at low temperatures.

Dwip made a good point. A standard test which will always resault in a corrupted image makes a good sense. I'll try to find if I have left some of those pictures on my HD. Maybe I'll be able to reconstruct the conditions.
 
Hmmm.. i love takin direct sun shots and evening sun set shots.. and so far out of about 50 of those shots, this hasn't happened to me yet.. i have taken some on ridiculously bright days at the beach, but they usually come out nice :)

hmm.. i didn't know about the blind user thing. hhaha.. maybe i'll layoff the sun then... any way to protect my lens while still shooting the sun? polarizer? UV?

sorry i'm a real newbie at lenses, so just need some advice :)

jus tell me if u wanna see a sun shot.. hee

--
--------------------
just me and my G3... :o) hooooyeh...
 
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