Don Northup
Leading Member
My reagrds to all,
Don
Don
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God bless the Columbia crew
- Thread starter vince lorto
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Willie G.
Senior Member
I was really going to just forget this thread and leave you with the last word, but you're completely misrepresenting what I've said.
Look, NASA said, or they used to say, that the odds were one in 100,000. Those are the numbers, for example, that reporters would be given if they asked at a press conference what the odds were of anything going wrong. That's just a fact. NASA made it up. Not the scientists, for sure, but the marketing/public relations departments.
YOU call it a lie. Well, NASA made it up. So, who are you tired of hearing from???????
OBVIOUSLY it's a ridiculous number, but don't lay the blame on ME for making it up!!! You wish to blindly believe whatever propaganda you wish to believe, that's your business. But please don't try to make me sound like an idiot in your crusade.
You tell me to "do the math", and I tell you to read what I actually wrote.
I suspect you suffer from selective reading syndrome. I've re-read through my posts and cannot see any area where I was oblique or misleading. So, now I feel confident that my point will be understood by most who venture into this thread (I sincerely apologize to them all) and I leave you your last word.
All the best,
effzee
PS, in case you look up my personal data, you'll see I live in now Germany. But, before you use that as an argument against the validity of what I say, I want to mention that I'm as American as you...
Look, NASA said, or they used to say, that the odds were one in 100,000. Those are the numbers, for example, that reporters would be given if they asked at a press conference what the odds were of anything going wrong. That's just a fact. NASA made it up. Not the scientists, for sure, but the marketing/public relations departments.
YOU call it a lie. Well, NASA made it up. So, who are you tired of hearing from???????
OBVIOUSLY it's a ridiculous number, but don't lay the blame on ME for making it up!!! You wish to blindly believe whatever propaganda you wish to believe, that's your business. But please don't try to make me sound like an idiot in your crusade.
You tell me to "do the math", and I tell you to read what I actually wrote.
I suspect you suffer from selective reading syndrome. I've re-read through my posts and cannot see any area where I was oblique or misleading. So, now I feel confident that my point will be understood by most who venture into this thread (I sincerely apologize to them all) and I leave you your last word.
All the best,
effzee
PS, in case you look up my personal data, you'll see I live in now Germany. But, before you use that as an argument against the validity of what I say, I want to mention that I'm as American as you...
Sundance138872
Leading Member
Reading this has been a mixed experience! I can totally sympathize with Your (Americans) feelings of loss. Regardless of what have transpired here, many people expressing a disturbing amount of prejudice against others, We should keep in mind that this is a time for fellowship, because the Space programme is in EVERYBODY´S interest, and We have ALL lost something today. Tragedy´s like this hits hard everywhere.
My deepest sympathies.
--
Sundance
My deepest sympathies.
--
Sundance
It's real tough to have sympathy for Crocodile Tears.
Bush won't willingly support the true NESARA law announcement.
Sharon has a problem with Palistinians as a race of people.
The shuttle is lost and debris rains down in Texas and around a town called Palistine with an Israeli member of the crew lost.
I don't know of a clearer message from the Creator telling both these leaders to drop their war agenda for something peaceful and helpful to all people of the world. Get it!?
The shuttle program is funded like a skeleton cover program, but has military connections. Let me know when the military gets the smallest budget of the lot will ya?
Know the real inhumanity of it all. Some insurance salespeople want to sell you protection from space debris.
Launch events were a problem with Challenger and remain a problem now.
Ever do something several times without success only to find out your whole approach to the thing was all wrong including your reason for doing it in the first place? Same thing with the true puropose of the shuttle program. With good intentions comes money for safety.
Want more truth and funding. Support the true NESARA law. You'll get the answers.
All peoples intentions are linked energetically and connect in a vast network involving everyone and the planet. Study on a path of a Shaman and you learn that. Study the symbiotic energetic relationships of events and you get that. War on one side of the planet for personal benefit of a joyful life on the other side is no longer an option. War is like a bad smell which stinks the whole place not just one room.
eL
s-230, cp-e4500, g2-b, i850
john farrar
Veteran Member
I'm not so sure that Phil will be best pleased with us discussing international terrorism here, so I'll try to keep it short and to the point.
There are so many issues all getting tied up in knots here today. The first thought that went through a lot of people's minds was that the shuttle disaster may have been the work of terrorists. Now with hindisght it looks like it was an accident with the heat-sheilding tiles - only further investigation will really tell. Until the day they can actually build Arthur C. Clarke's "Space Elevator" riding a rocket is always going to be extremely hazardous.
So you can see the terrorists don't have to do anything for their terror to continue its insidious work, which is without doubt focused on the erosion of confidence and destruction of cherished Western values; and the great irony is that we are doing most of their work for them. Already we look up to no-one and down on everybody who tries to warn us that society has to be so much more than dining in restaurants and taking nice vacations, and it is dangerously fashionable to think that life is for enjoying and not for safeguarding the next generation.
Yes you have a point about the West helping Moslem countries - Bosnia and the Kosovo province of Serbia spring to mind as recent examples, as does freeing Kuwait from the Iraqi ouccupiers (even it it was more of a business deal).
I don't think any world power can solve the Mid-East problem so long as there are nation states based upon religious convictions in that region. Even the Romans had their problems there, so too did the Turks when they had it so long as part of their empire, and we British simply packed our bags and left in a hurry when we got shot at by both sides for our efforts in the 1940's. In an ideal world they would all be made to get along with each other and respect each others' holy places, but it just isn't going to happen willingly any time soon.
John.
There are so many issues all getting tied up in knots here today. The first thought that went through a lot of people's minds was that the shuttle disaster may have been the work of terrorists. Now with hindisght it looks like it was an accident with the heat-sheilding tiles - only further investigation will really tell. Until the day they can actually build Arthur C. Clarke's "Space Elevator" riding a rocket is always going to be extremely hazardous.
So you can see the terrorists don't have to do anything for their terror to continue its insidious work, which is without doubt focused on the erosion of confidence and destruction of cherished Western values; and the great irony is that we are doing most of their work for them. Already we look up to no-one and down on everybody who tries to warn us that society has to be so much more than dining in restaurants and taking nice vacations, and it is dangerously fashionable to think that life is for enjoying and not for safeguarding the next generation.
That is the point I was making - these people are trouble-makers rather than true beleivers. If they had the whole world converted to Islam there would be no place for them, yet they'd still want to cause trouble.
Yes you have a point about the West helping Moslem countries - Bosnia and the Kosovo province of Serbia spring to mind as recent examples, as does freeing Kuwait from the Iraqi ouccupiers (even it it was more of a business deal).
I don't think any world power can solve the Mid-East problem so long as there are nation states based upon religious convictions in that region. Even the Romans had their problems there, so too did the Turks when they had it so long as part of their empire, and we British simply packed our bags and left in a hurry when we got shot at by both sides for our efforts in the 1940's. In an ideal world they would all be made to get along with each other and respect each others' holy places, but it just isn't going to happen willingly any time soon.
Yes, I do, and I understand the Clear and Present Danger. I understand the need to be strong and pro-active rather than reactive in the ongoing fight against terrorism. Western culture is worth fighting for precisely because it incorporates the values and tolerates the belief systems of others.
John.
Don Northup
Leading Member
Hello effzee,
First of all Rammstein is one of my favorite bands. You may not listen to it I do. I defend Germany on both sides of either argument.
I did not misrepresent anything.
Markiting departments, lobbys, spinmeisters, ABC, Reauters, Pollsters, CNN,
AP, USA today, and a thousand or so other experts give you anytype of numbers they want you here. is driven by pac,s lobbys, soft moneys, hard moneys, you cannot correctly base an odds assumption on what some says.
Odds are based on chances and probabilities. Usually mathematically. Look in a dictionary.
You are incorrect with your 100,000 to one stuff. 115::1 now 56::1 without gettin exponetial or something.
The probability of an individual parft in a system may be 100,000 to1 to it chance offailing. You may heard rhetoric to this effect somewhere.
But when you build a massive system with miliions of bit and pieces. The chance of failure is terrific. I ahve worked one huge electronic systems. They break all of the time.
Now consider all of manned space travel. In the earl days the odds were about 2to1 I think. As we get better the odds get better. You have to get past marketing, spin, and reporting. They are not the people that build the systems, do the work or ride the rocket.
You have derive your odds from, previuos experience. It is the way it is .
The odds of a lockhead rocket. Or a Russian rocket still fail a all of the time.
I out of every so many launches fail.
Your preposteriuos 100,000 to 1 is actuall kind of funny since there is not even that many satellites deployed in space. And I would dare say hundreds of launch vehicles have faile. Study engineering. Or space flight. Or the beginnings of fixed wing flight, or helocopters.
You will then reconsider your odds. That is what I meant when I said do the math.
DuHast
Don
First of all Rammstein is one of my favorite bands. You may not listen to it I do. I defend Germany on both sides of either argument.
I did not misrepresent anything.
Markiting departments, lobbys, spinmeisters, ABC, Reauters, Pollsters, CNN,
AP, USA today, and a thousand or so other experts give you anytype of numbers they want you here. is driven by pac,s lobbys, soft moneys, hard moneys, you cannot correctly base an odds assumption on what some says.
Odds are based on chances and probabilities. Usually mathematically. Look in a dictionary.
You are incorrect with your 100,000 to one stuff. 115::1 now 56::1 without gettin exponetial or something.
The probability of an individual parft in a system may be 100,000 to1 to it chance offailing. You may heard rhetoric to this effect somewhere.
But when you build a massive system with miliions of bit and pieces. The chance of failure is terrific. I ahve worked one huge electronic systems. They break all of the time.
Now consider all of manned space travel. In the earl days the odds were about 2to1 I think. As we get better the odds get better. You have to get past marketing, spin, and reporting. They are not the people that build the systems, do the work or ride the rocket.
You have derive your odds from, previuos experience. It is the way it is .
The odds of a lockhead rocket. Or a Russian rocket still fail a all of the time.
I out of every so many launches fail.
Your preposteriuos 100,000 to 1 is actuall kind of funny since there is not even that many satellites deployed in space. And I would dare say hundreds of launch vehicles have faile. Study engineering. Or space flight. Or the beginnings of fixed wing flight, or helocopters.
You will then reconsider your odds. That is what I meant when I said do the math.
DuHast
Don
netop
Forum Enthusiast
I agree that my post was of context, I also regretted writing it very quickly
most of all because I didn?t explain why I wrote it in the fist place
And I am pist at my self, for not doing so.
Instead I got cut in my own snowstorm..
My final, final post here? jaus.
most of all because I didn?t explain why I wrote it in the fist place
And I am pist at my self, for not doing so.
Instead I got cut in my own snowstorm..
My final, final post here? jaus.
Graeme Cogger
Senior Member
I believe this entire discussion is off topic for this forum.
Then perhaps I should say that I do agree with his views. Jaus never said that this event is not tragic, merely that many things equally, or more, tragic happen every day.
The only people making attacks are people like yourself. Someone committed the terrible sin of not agreeing with the majority, and has been insulted and villified as a result. Comments like those above are, in my view, completely out of order.
The events in question are, indeed, tragic and I hope the families and friends of the astronauts can find a way to cope. But I feel the same about, say, the frequent innocent deaths on both sides of the Israel/Palestine conflict; or the people killed in road accidents in this country every day; or the millions of people dying from malnutrition and disease around the world.
Don Northup
Leading Member
I took Jaus's statement to mean we should be compassionate everday, not just on days when something big and tragic hits the headlines and fiery video footage crosses our TV screens. The list of tragedies that occur everyday accross the world would more than fill this message board's bandwidth capacity, to say the least. The horrific mistreatment of Greenland Inuit native's by the Danish government would be somewhere on the list. I suspect Jaus is not part of the mainstream-thought in his country regarding that subject.
Shock and sadness at the shuttle crash are normal and good. I feel frustration for the families of the victims. And I send them love and support, the only way I can, with my thoughts and prayers.
There is nothing wrong with Bush asking for God's blessing for his country. But he should ask for better rocket scientists as part of the bargain. I remember Richard Feynman, the scientist who finally got to the truth behind the Challenger explosion, writing that the chances of a crash at that time were about one in a hundred, as opposed to NASA's claim (reported of course as "fact") that they were one in a few thousand.
effzee
This stuff here, plus you carrying an invalid point that means nothing to the people expressing their heartfelt sympathyhere. I just don't see what validity the 100,000 to 1, or others suffering has to do with people "incorrectly" stating sympathy as it seems you have been saying in your vigorous and rigours defense. I do applaud your efforts.
I think we can agree to be friends aye,
Don
Shock and sadness at the shuttle crash are normal and good. I feel frustration for the families of the victims. And I send them love and support, the only way I can, with my thoughts and prayers.
There is nothing wrong with Bush asking for God's blessing for his country. But he should ask for better rocket scientists as part of the bargain. I remember Richard Feynman, the scientist who finally got to the truth behind the Challenger explosion, writing that the chances of a crash at that time were about one in a hundred, as opposed to NASA's claim (reported of course as "fact") that they were one in a few thousand.
effzee
This stuff here, plus you carrying an invalid point that means nothing to the people expressing their heartfelt sympathyhere. I just don't see what validity the 100,000 to 1, or others suffering has to do with people "incorrectly" stating sympathy as it seems you have been saying in your vigorous and rigours defense. I do applaud your efforts.
I think we can agree to be friends aye,
Don
Don Northup
Leading Member
They should have started an Anti America thread here at DPReview should'nt they have? Not troll around in here. Maybe they would get alot of action from guys like you aye?
Hamas and Islamic Jihad do not further mankind as the US space program does. If you want to argue about Hamas and Islamic Jihad start a thread. We are not talking about that here. Read the first post. Someone killed by a drunk driver is not advancing mankind.
It is not the same. Those brave people were heroes to us. Expressing aliitle extra sympathy for our heroes is only natural and human. If you are an American you would have to agree. If not maybe you are not part of humankind. Are you apalled at the suffering in Kenya. I don't see any of your posts on it.
America helps the most of anyone to those who you speak. Would you like to argue this. Or the cost of freedom. Get over it. People here are sad. Let them feel sad if they want to.
Not Mad
My reply,
Don
Hamas and Islamic Jihad do not further mankind as the US space program does. If you want to argue about Hamas and Islamic Jihad start a thread. We are not talking about that here. Read the first post. Someone killed by a drunk driver is not advancing mankind.
It is not the same. Those brave people were heroes to us. Expressing aliitle extra sympathy for our heroes is only natural and human. If you are an American you would have to agree. If not maybe you are not part of humankind. Are you apalled at the suffering in Kenya. I don't see any of your posts on it.
America helps the most of anyone to those who you speak. Would you like to argue this. Or the cost of freedom. Get over it. People here are sad. Let them feel sad if they want to.
Not Mad
My reply,
Don
Don Northup
Leading Member
netop
Forum Enthusiast
Don Northup
Leading Member
You are very cold. Intellegent but very cold.
Whad ya think we don't cross paltform tech. advances here.
Look we saved the world once or twice already, will do again and again if we have to. If others can't figure the future out in time we will help them. If you and others want to stay in the third world and study in mosques or something like that. Go ahead, don't expect America stop furthering the advancement of mankind.
We agree on something the launch vehicle sucks. The program is undefunded. Yell at the democrats not at people mourning their DEAD heroes. Yell at the unions here for remaining in the steel age. Your point is politically and in my opinion has no bearing on heartfelt emotion generated by our DEAD heroes.
I'm A Nentenyahoo fan anyway Yahoooo!
I appreciate you claering this up for me I now see cleary where you stand, and it has nothing to do with aliigators or whatever you said.
Just plain old Cold.
Thanks,
Don
Whad ya think we don't cross paltform tech. advances here.
Look we saved the world once or twice already, will do again and again if we have to. If others can't figure the future out in time we will help them. If you and others want to stay in the third world and study in mosques or something like that. Go ahead, don't expect America stop furthering the advancement of mankind.
We agree on something the launch vehicle sucks. The program is undefunded. Yell at the democrats not at people mourning their DEAD heroes. Yell at the unions here for remaining in the steel age. Your point is politically and in my opinion has no bearing on heartfelt emotion generated by our DEAD heroes.
I'm A Nentenyahoo fan anyway Yahoooo!
I appreciate you claering this up for me I now see cleary where you stand, and it has nothing to do with aliigators or whatever you said.
Just plain old Cold.
Thanks,
Don
Don Northup
Leading Member
Thanks John,
Very well said if I do says so.
Iagree you ain't taken the fight out the mideast. To hard to seperate fact from religeon I agree also. Thank you for your last paragraph. It sums things up perfectly.
Thanks for expounding,
Don
Very well said if I do says so.
Iagree you ain't taken the fight out the mideast. To hard to seperate fact from religeon I agree also. Thank you for your last paragraph. It sums things up perfectly.
Thanks for expounding,
Don
Graeme Cogger
Senior Member
I'm confused - where did I mention America? I simply criticised people (and I've no idea of their nationality) who attack those who disagree with them.
Again, confused. I listed a number of examples of innocent deaths. You are the one who keeps talking about Hamas.
I would have thought that if I was American I would have a constitutional right to express my disagreement. Or do you believe (as you state) that it is mandatory to agree with you? I'm sure that the suppression of dissenting views is common in some countries, but not America or the UK.
There are many apalling things going on in the world, but I do not generally see the need to post to a photography forum about them.
Why would I? You are the one who keeps making this an issue about America - I have no strong views on the subject.
Now that I can agree with
I'm not sure the personal attacks are helping, however.I'm sure I have made my views clear, so I see no need post any more on the subject. Feel free to continue to insult and misrepresnt me if it makes you feel better.
Nick Lehmann
Forum Enthusiast
--I'm confused - where did I mention America? I simply criticised
people (and I've no idea of their nationality) who attack those who
disagree with them.
Again, confused. I listed a number of examples of innocent deaths.
You are the one who keeps talking about Hamas.
I would have thought that if I was American I would have a
constitutional right to express my disagreement. Or do you believe
(as you state) that it is mandatory to agree with you? I'm sure
that the suppression of dissenting views is common in some
countries, but not America or the UK.
There are many apalling things going on in the world, but I do not
generally see the need to post to a photography forum about them.
Why would I? You are the one who keeps making this an issue about
America - I have no strong views on the subject.
Now that I can agree with
are helping, however.
I'm sure I have made my views clear, so I see no need post any more
on the subject. Feel free to continue to insult and misrepresnt me
if it makes you feel better.
Sometimes Slicknick, sometimes not so Slicknick
http://www.pbase.com/slick11nick/
Don Northup
Leading Member
Greame,
You are missing the point. No one said you can't voice you opinion here. I only reccomende that anti-regret or whatever you and jaus are posting, Just does not seem to do anything constructive. What does it add in a sympathy thread. I think it degrades and antagonizes the discussion and the people that want to express remorse here.
Why dont you and jaus start your own "Who all deserves the most sympathy" or a "Who does deserve sympathy " or a " Whatever you want to complain about thread"? See if alot of people would like to participate maybe you would get more than a few backers of you argument.
You came into this discussion with nothing but a bunch of propoganda you wanted to get off of your chest. People did'nt like it and now your are mad.
I guess you just don't see th big picture here. C'mon Greame, this is a Photo site, people wanted to express sympathy and your are trying to lump on some of your own personal vies and problems. You are the one not being constructive here.
A proud American Veteran and American Legion member,
Don
You are missing the point. No one said you can't voice you opinion here. I only reccomende that anti-regret or whatever you and jaus are posting, Just does not seem to do anything constructive. What does it add in a sympathy thread. I think it degrades and antagonizes the discussion and the people that want to express remorse here.
Why dont you and jaus start your own "Who all deserves the most sympathy" or a "Who does deserve sympathy " or a " Whatever you want to complain about thread"? See if alot of people would like to participate maybe you would get more than a few backers of you argument.
You came into this discussion with nothing but a bunch of propoganda you wanted to get off of your chest. People did'nt like it and now your are mad.
I guess you just don't see th big picture here. C'mon Greame, this is a Photo site, people wanted to express sympathy and your are trying to lump on some of your own personal vies and problems. You are the one not being constructive here.
A proud American Veteran and American Legion member,
Don
Don Northup
Leading Member
See ya around jaus.
*isteve
Veteran Member
Linda, you are so right!
No space flight is routine. Every one is pushing the envelope as far as it can go. Even the most careful planning, training and engineering cannot avoid a significant element of risk, and this is something the crews accept as part of the job. When it appears routine to those of us watching on TV, it is so easy to forget the sheer courage required just to go and do it. Considering the reality of a rocket launch and reentry, I suspect I would lose my nerve long before getting to the launchpad! In a very real sense they all have a lot of "the right stuff".
Let us hope that their loss is not in vain, and that humanity continues to explore and push the frontiers, remembering all the while that the sacrifice for doing so can be the ultimate one. This has always been the price of great human endeavour and has never deterred our best and bravest from facing the challenge for the ultimate benefit of all of us.
I saw a wreath on CNN, saying how all of Pakistan mourns the loss. A Muslim expressing grief for the loss of Americans, an Indian and an Israeli. Space belongs to us all, and such endeavour transcends petty politics and strife and unites us in our humanity. We need such endeavour, and the greatest tragedy of all would be to give up now and deny future generations the chance to explore the only remaining frontier.
Steve
No space flight is routine. Every one is pushing the envelope as far as it can go. Even the most careful planning, training and engineering cannot avoid a significant element of risk, and this is something the crews accept as part of the job. When it appears routine to those of us watching on TV, it is so easy to forget the sheer courage required just to go and do it. Considering the reality of a rocket launch and reentry, I suspect I would lose my nerve long before getting to the launchpad! In a very real sense they all have a lot of "the right stuff".
Let us hope that their loss is not in vain, and that humanity continues to explore and push the frontiers, remembering all the while that the sacrifice for doing so can be the ultimate one. This has always been the price of great human endeavour and has never deterred our best and bravest from facing the challenge for the ultimate benefit of all of us.
I saw a wreath on CNN, saying how all of Pakistan mourns the loss. A Muslim expressing grief for the loss of Americans, an Indian and an Israeli. Space belongs to us all, and such endeavour transcends petty politics and strife and unites us in our humanity. We need such endeavour, and the greatest tragedy of all would be to give up now and deny future generations the chance to explore the only remaining frontier.
Steve
Don Northup
Leading Member
If if you don't mind Steve I would like to save you text. No intent to publish or anything. I just like what you said. It was profound
Thanks,
Don
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