Buy from Dell or B&H?

Mike Hunt · Jan 30, 2003

Knum said:
Well, if the "LCS"s would lower there prices to be competitive,
they would get more business. I don't need the advice of a LCS
since I do so much online research and hands on experimenting
before I purchase a camera. But I would definately purchase from
one if they lowered their prices.

Not all of us are wealthy. Saving $100 makes a big difference for me.

True, but you make it sound as if the LCS is being greedy, while the big company is being generous with low prices. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The small company must sell at a certain price point, determined by their limited sales volumes and limited ability to buy in bulk. The big company arranges a massive purchase of just a hadful of popular items, sells them at very low margins (or even at cost or at a loss) in order to gain market share and take business away from the smaller businesses. After smalller businesses go out of business (known as a "shake-down" in business-speak) then the big company is free to set prices as high as they want, since they no longer have competition, and small business entrepreseurs will think twice about going head to head with them, inlight of their past tactics.

Knum · Jan 30, 2003

So after saying that I could not afford to spend an extra $100 at an LCS, you automatically make assumptions that I am 1) calling them greedy and 2) uneducated?

Thanks for your enlightening post, buddy!

Drew

Todd Walker said:
A local camera store cannot lower their prices because the
manufacturers charge them more for their products since they can't
buy in bulk like Dell can. You need to take Economics 101
apparently. Do you think that mom and pop shops are more expensive
because they are greedy? Lemme tell ya, it ain't so. The small
business owner in this country is in serious trouble and that's bad
for all of us because this economy was built on small businesses.
The large companies are coming into Anytown, USA, undercutting the
little guy's prices, and giving them two choices in the process --
sell out to them or go out of business. Either way, the little guy
is getting screwed.

--
Todd Walker
Olympus: E20N, FL40, RM-CB01, FL-CB05, MCON-35, Stroboframe
Quickflip 350
Canon: G2, Vivitar 285HV
http://twalker.d2g.com
Galleries:
http://www.fototime.com/inv/3C36882EA363952

Knum · Jan 30, 2003

Mike,

I did not suggest that the LCSs are being greedy. I just can't afford the extra cost of supporting a small operation. When, if ever, I become wealthy enough to afford spending extra money to support a local business, I definately will.

I do understand (and have since high school) that the larger companies buy in bulk and therefore, get the goods at a cheaper price. However, thanks for teaching me a little bit about the takeover term "shake-down!"

Drew

Mike Hunt said:
True, but you make it sound as if the LCS is being greedy, while
the big company is being generous with low prices. Nothing could be
further from the truth.

The small company must sell at a certain price point, determined by
their limited sales volumes and limited ability to buy in bulk. The
big company arranges a massive purchase of just a hadful of popular
items, sells them at very low margins (or even at cost or at a
loss) in order to gain market share and take business away from the
smaller businesses. After smalller businesses go out of business
(known as a "shake-down" in business-speak) then the big company is
free to set prices as high as they want, since they no longer have
competition, and small business entrepreseurs will think twice
about going head to head with them, inlight of their past tactics.

Mike Hunt · Jan 30, 2003

Knum said:
Mike,

I did not suggest that the LCSs are being greedy. I just can't
afford the extra cost of supporting a small operation. When, if
ever, I become wealthy enough to afford spending extra money to
support a local business, I definately will.

I do understand (and have since high school) that the larger
companies buy in bulk and therefore, get the goods at a cheaper
price. However, thanks for teaching me a little bit about the
takeover term "shake-down!"

Drew

I'm in much the same position as you, not being able to afford to splurge money on higher priced products from small companies just to make a personal and ethical statement.

It's just that some people are foolish and naive enough to develop a weird sense of loyalty to sleazebag companies like Dell.

Mike Hunt · Jan 30, 2003

SAM said:
I like B&H very much but to me if they are near the same price, the
return policy of Dell vs. B&H makes it a no brainer to buy from
Dell, unless the ship time becomes critical to you. I have been
buying products from Dell for years, and unlike some other posters,
my experience with them has been about the best customer service of
any company I have dealt with. I consistently have short hold
times, and usually get knowledgeable people.If something goes wrong
with your B&H camera after 7 days, or even if you decide it is the
wrong product for you, you are stuck, or you have to deal with
Canon directly. With Dell you have 30 days, whether it is defective
or you simply feel the camera is not right for you.

Dell is no longer the same company they were two or more years ago.

Knum · Jan 30, 2003

Christina,

I get the same response when walking into a commission-based retail store, like Circuit City. This is one reason why I refuse to purchase equipment from these outless, not to mention you can get items cheaper elsewhere.

I guess since I'm in a college town and look college aged, they assume I'm just browsing and won't actually purchase something. However, go into these stores with a parent and voila! You have a flock of people trying to help you...

Drew

Christina said:
Sso I can buy locally and get no service, or buy online and get no
service but at least get the camera cheaper. You better believe I'd
be happy to pay the premium if I were GETTING something for that
premium. But in my experience, I haven't.

Michael G2 said:

What kind of expertise has Dell in the camera field? Their claim to
fame is sell cheap with no value added. Don't get me wrong they
make good PC's, but the long term effect of disregarding the local
camera store will be a few major distributors who don't know their
aperature from a hole in the ground, and no place to play with the
hardware before ordering from the internet.

B&H is very competetive, professional, with staff that takes
photography as seriously as we do.

I bought from B&H.

Dhiren Shah said:

1) They are much cheaper
2) They have a better return policy than B&H. B&H is 7 day while
Dell gives a no hassle 30-day.

The only thing to remember is that their online order
tracking/shipping system is VERY CONSERVATIVE. So when they give
you a ship date of 2 months out dont freak out. Go by what the
item detail page says about how long to ship. I think last I
checked the G3 was 1-2 days while the S45 was 3-4 weeks.

Andy Favors said:

I am getting days away from getting my G3, and I am tempted to buy
from Dell with their coupons and stuff going on, but I would think
that B&H would be a better place to buy a camera from, since they
are a photography website. Has anyone got a G3 from them, and had
to return it for any reason, and if so, did they give you any
problems? I have read plenty that B&H doesn't give much problems
(if any). Thanx

Andy

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Mike Hunt · Jan 30, 2003

Anthony Colonna said:
I have to agree with Bill. Yes, B&H is good, but so is Dell. I have
used Dell with no problems. I originally bought an Olympus E-20
from Dell and then decided after three weeks that I would be
happier with a Nikon D100. Called Dell and they gave me a return
authorization with no questions asked. Returned the E-20 and
ordered the G3 as a "carry around" back-up for the Nikon and it
arrived in 3-days. With Dell's discounts, they are hard to beat in
my opinion.

I would only buy from Dell if there were a price difference of $50 or more. Dell sucks.

Mike Hunt · Jan 30, 2003

Andy Favors said:
Thanx for all the replies. Ok, so far it's looking like Dell is
the winner, just for the fact that if I don't like it, I can return
it within 30 days no questions asked. Not to mention cheaper.

Does anyone have experience having to return a defective item back
to Dell? I have bought from (and worked for) Gateway, and
depending on how you word things, can get basically anything you
want. I just wonder how Dell is on customer support. Thanx

Andy

All I know about Dell's returrn policy is that if you return a brand new defective computer, they ship you a refurbished one in its place - not a new one.

And their so-called great price on these cameras evaporates if you live in a state where they charge sales tax.

Mike Hunt · Jan 30, 2003

pdx_photoman said:
Andy Favors said:

Does anyone have experience having to return a defective item back
to Dell?

Click to expand...

Yes. They are noted for their customer support and consistently
come out top of the heap in computer magazine support rankings.

THat was years ago. Thei ratings for service and support have dropped from an A to a C in recent years.

Go to the Dell newsgroup and check out all the angry complaints. Two years ago that group had nothing but good things to say about Dell. I know, because I was a regualr contributor.

Our

Jim Lewis said:
office is an all-Dell house, with the exception of one IBM and one
Fujitsu notebook, and it's all I use at my home office.

I have never bought camera gear from them, but have purchased
software, peripherals, etc., in addition to computers and servers.
If this is your chief concern, I can't think of a better company to
deal with.

(I'm also a happy B&H customer, but I'm just addressing the narrow
focus of your question.)

--
Jim Lewis
http://www.pbase.com/pdx_photoman
http://www.jimlewis.info
Canon G2, Elan IIE, FS4000US, Photoshop 7, Epson 2200

Andy Favors · Jan 30, 2003

I live in Arkansas, so I doubt that I live in a taxed state. Rarely I pay tax on anything online. The only thing I can remember paying tax on is the camera bag I bought the other day.

Andy

Mike Hunt said:
Andy Favors said:

Thanx for all the replies. Ok, so far it's looking like Dell is
the winner, just for the fact that if I don't like it, I can return
it within 30 days no questions asked. Not to mention cheaper.

Does anyone have experience having to return a defective item back
to Dell? I have bought from (and worked for) Gateway, and
depending on how you word things, can get basically anything you
want. I just wonder how Dell is on customer support. Thanx

Andy

Click to expand...

All I know about Dell's returrn policy is that if you return a
brand new defective computer, they ship you a refurbished one in
its place - not a new one.

And their so-called great price on these cameras evaporates if you
live in a state where they charge sales tax.

bml · Jan 30, 2003

I don't have a local photo shop nearby. Does it really matter where I get the camera? All the stores in my area sell the Canon S45 for the same price. Future Shop would be convenient and they have a 30 day return policy...but if problems do occur...will they be helpful?

Bernad

Andy Favors · Jan 30, 2003

I wouldn't risk them, check out this page........

http://www.resellerratings.com/seller1761.html

Always check out anybody on http://www.resellerratings.com first before you purchase.

Andy

BML said:
I don't have a local photo shop nearby. Does it really matter
where I get the camera? All the stores in my area sell the Canon
S45 for the same price. Future Shop would be convenient and they
have a 30 day return policy...but if problems do occur...will they
be helpful?

Bernad

maynardf1 · Jan 30, 2003

Are you talking about ordering from future shop on-line or going into the store?

I got an S40 early in december, but right after christmas the S45 arrived in canada. I took the 40 back to f.s. and returned it with no problem. It wasn't an exchange because they didn't have the s45 yet, but I had no problem.

I then got my s45 at vistek.ca, which is a cdn equivalent of B&H, as far as I can tell.
Future Shop is now owned by Best Buy, for better or worse.

Andy Favors said:
http://www.resellerratings.com/seller1761.html

Always check out anybody on http://www.resellerratings.com first before
you purchase.

Andy

BML said:

I don't have a local photo shop nearby. Does it really matter
where I get the camera? All the stores in my area sell the Canon
S45 for the same price. Future Shop would be convenient and they
have a 30 day return policy...but if problems do occur...will they
be helpful?

Bernad

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/maynardf1/galleries

Todd Walker · Jan 30, 2003

Knum said:
So after saying that I could not afford to spend an extra $100 at
an LCS, you automatically make assumptions that I am 1) calling
them greedy

No, after saying:

"Well, if the "LCS"s would lower there prices to be competitive, they would get more business."

I assumed you were calling them greedy. You insinuated that they choose to keep their prices high and that they could just lower them if they really wanted to.

Knum said:
and 2) uneducated?

"...would lower there prices..."

"There" is a location. You wanted to say "their."

Knum said:
Thanks for your enlightening post, buddy!

I'm not your buddy. I don't even know you.

--
Todd Walker
Olympus: E20N, FL40, RM-CB01, FL-CB05, MCON-35, Stroboframe Quickflip 350
Canon: G2, Vivitar 285HV
http://twalker.d2g.com
Galleries:
http://www.fototime.com/inv/3C36882EA363952

ChiliPepperD · Jan 30, 2003

Actually, I think it's even worse than that.

I'd be willing to wager that most of us (posters to this forum) know more about photography and digital in particular than the person behind the counter. I know that I do, and I'm far from being an expert.

My LCS can't print a roll of film right. How can I trust them to guide me to the right DC for me or my family? And pay more for it besides?

On top of that, most of them have a limited selection, and often will steer you to a piece of equipment based on the amount of kickback they get, not based on what's right for you.

That being the case, I'll give my LCS first shot, maybe buy some inexpensive stuff from him, but when you have to balance price, quality of service, and timing, he'll come up short more often than not.

Sorry for the rant, folks. I know there are some good guys out there, but they are getting harder and harder to find.

Christina said:
Sso I can buy locally and get no service, or buy online and get no
service but at least get the camera cheaper. You better believe I'd
be happy to pay the premium if I were GETTING something for that
premium. But in my experience, I haven't.

Michael G2 said:

That's the long term effect of being too focused on price. How many
people walk into their local camera store. Play with hardware, ask
all the questions, take a few brochures, compare with the other
products they have in stock and then go and order from the internet
and screw the local camera shop.
snip

Click to expand...

--
Joe

G2
Konica Autoreflex-T
Pentax IQZoom 115

MikeD03C · Jan 30, 2003

I bought my Nikon 775 from Dell a little over a year ago. It had a few dead pixels and they replaced it for me. They didn't even require me to send my old camera back first. I will admit that it was a little difficult to actually get to talk to someone in support on the phone, though. I would certainly buy from them again.

Jim Lewis · Jan 30, 2003

Mike Hunt said:
THat was years ago. Thei ratings for service and support have
dropped from an A to a C in recent years.

That may well be true. Our experience has been uniformly positive.

--
Jim Lewis
http://www.pbase.com/pdx_photoman
http://www.jimlewis.info
Canon G2, Elan IIE, FS4000US, Photoshop 7, Epson 2200

Christina43365 · Jan 30, 2003

I recognize well enough that small store owners are feeling the pinch from big/online retailers. But like someone mentioned before, I don't have the money to pay to make some kind of philosophical point on this particular issue. I mean, gosh, the "local" camera store near me is Best Buy. I can't really say shopping there is any better than shopping at Dell or B&H, right? Another "local" camera store is Ritz. Is Ritz a "mom and pop?" How are we defining this? Who is deciding who's worthy to get the money?

I am willing to spend when I'm getting something in return. For instance, greeting me when I walk in a store instead of ignoring me -- that would be a start. Going over different features in a professional manner with me -- that would be nice. Having employees that actually know what they're talking about? That would be wonderful. I read enough online that I can see through bull immediately. Conducting a "get acquainted with your new digicam" type 1-hour class for people who've just bought a camera? That would be FANTASTIC. These cameras are darn complicated, I'd love to be able to take a class like that. I know they have similar events at Apple Stores. I'm sure there are stores that do this...anyone know of any in the Washington D.C. area? 'Cause I don't.

I'm sorry. This just touches a little nerve in me because I think you can't really make some kind of snap judgment that buying at one place is "bad" and someplace else is "good." (in this type of situation.) There's a lot of factors at play.

Mike Hunt · Jan 30, 2003

Best Buy is one of the big companies - not a local photo shop by any stretch of hte imagination.

I think the original comment was referring to small, privately owned, dedicated camera shops that usually cater to pros and carry a wide assortment of equipment and accessories, well beyond the limited selection of consumer-oriented products carries in department stores.

These little shops are a dying breed, though, due to pressures from larger companies.

Christina said:
I recognize well enough that small store owners are feeling the
pinch from big/online retailers. But like someone mentioned before,
I don't have the money to pay to make some kind of philosophical
point on this particular issue. I mean, gosh, the "local" camera
store near me is Best Buy. I can't really say shopping there is any
better than shopping at Dell or B&H, right? Another "local" camera
store is Ritz. Is Ritz a "mom and pop?" How are we defining this?
Who is deciding who's worthy to get the money?

I am willing to spend when I'm getting something in return. For
instance, greeting me when I walk in a store instead of ignoring me
-- that would be a start. Going over different features in a
professional manner with me -- that would be nice. Having employees
that actually know what they're talking about? That would be
wonderful. I read enough online that I can see through bull
immediately. Conducting a "get acquainted with your new digicam"
type 1-hour class for people who've just bought a camera? That
would be FANTASTIC. These cameras are darn complicated, I'd love to
be able to take a class like that. I know they have similar events
at Apple Stores. I'm sure there are stores that do this...anyone
know of any in the Washington D.C. area? 'Cause I don't.

I'm sorry. This just touches a little nerve in me because I think
you can't really make some kind of snap judgment that buying at one
place is "bad" and someplace else is "good." (in this type of
situation.) There's a lot of factors at play.

Mike Hunt · Jan 30, 2003

pdx_photoman said:
Mike Hunt said:

THat was years ago. Thei ratings for service and support have
dropped from an A to a C in recent years.

Click to expand...

That may well be true. Our experience has been uniformly positive.

I believe you. But just be aware that more and more people are complaining about their declining level of service and don't be surprised when you get stung yourself.

You used to be able to call Dell tech support and get a knowledgeable and friendly techniucian in less than 5 minutes - who was willing and able to properly troubleshoot and resolve most any problem, hardware or software related.

Now, they've fired all those people and outsourced their tech support to India, where underpaid and undertrained workers are often blunt and rude and unwilling or unable to actually troubleshoot any technical problem unless it's something that can be quickly attributed to a defective piece of hardware. COnsidering these people probably make less in a year than most of their customers make in a month, they aren't inclined to provide much sympathy for what they consider to be spoiled and rich American consumers.

This is a far cry from the service that earned Dell their great reputation 10 years ago.

Buy from Dell or B&H?

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