What ever happened to civil argument?

Steve_in_FL · Oct 2, 2012

Sammy, the main offender seems to have been banned. Many people have validated the fact that civility is preferable to boorishness. I think most support your freedom of speech. Most sane people would say you accomplished your goal.

Realistically, where do you want to go from here? You can never eliminate rudeness entirely. I wish you could, but you can't. Even the best of us screws up sometimes. But this topic has grown tiresome. Worse, you are making assumptions and accusations against people who don't merit it. If you want to add me to the list of people who you think are asking you to shut up, so be it. But you have had your say, and then some. The horse is dead.

Can we please go back to talking about photography now?

Peter Jonas · Oct 2, 2012

Sammy Yousef said:
Mako2011 said:

Sammy Yousef said:

Mako2011 wrote:

Yes. Absolutely, and I see nothing reasonable in your support of the above behaviour either.

Click to expand...

By saying I supported something when I only asked a question gives a certain insight and points to a common thread.

Click to expand...

More character assassination. Asking the question you did, and in light of previous posts on this thread, it is quite clear to anyone reading where you're headed and that ANY response I gave was going to be met with placing the blame on me. Your answer only proves that further. Continuing to divert this thread into a character assassination can only be taken one way.

Sammy,

Perhaps it is not the best idea to single out individuals here, but I feel strongly about this and will make an exception.

I do not personally know Mako. However, in the past 12 months or so I think I have read more than a 1000 of his posts. On that basis I have formed the opinion that he is one of the most polite, respectful and reasonable members here. He goes out of his way to make sure he does not offend anyone. He remains measured, objective and is the first to admit if he got something wrong, or was able to embrace an idea from another member.

In my opinion he is exemplary in his conduct on this forum. I also belive I am not alone around here with this view about him.

I have also read his comments tou you in relation to this thread. As it happens, he does not agree with you on matters you raised. He has stated his views in a very respectful manner.

Now if you seriously think that he is part of a "character assasination" or anything offensive or sinister against you, then I think it is time for you to take a step back and give some serious thought to what other people are saying here without any malice whatsoever.

You do tend to have views which are contrary to those of the majority. And that is OK. But it is inevitable that sooner or later you receive negative comments. When you have "controversial" views you have to be prepared for and be able to deal with people who have different views and their comments. Some of us will express our disagreement in a more amicable manner, while others are not so patient.

THINK about this.

--
Cheers,

Peter Jonas

Sammy Yousef · Oct 2, 2012

Steve_in_FL said:
Sammy, the main offender seems to have been banned. Many people have validated the fact that civility is preferable to boorishness. I think most support your freedom of speech. Most sane people would say you accomplished your goal.

Yet my character has continued to be questioned.

Steve_in_FL said:
Realistically, where do you want to go from here?

Well as of this very post people are still asking me questions, and I'm still responding whether I think they're genuine or not. I don't understand your confusion, and I don't understand why you think it's a mistake for me to reply.

Steve_in_FL said:
You can never eliminate rudeness entirely.

...and I have conceded that. However I've repeatedly asked we all show restraint and be courteous to posters. I've done so a few times and a few ways before this thread got derailed with the argument "but but you once posted something calling a whole bunch of strangers idiots, so you don't get to ask for politeness. ever. and your apologies and other contributions mean nothing."

Steve_in_FL said:
I wish you could, but you can't. Even the best of us screws up sometimes. But this topic has grown tiresome.

If you're the one finding it so tiresome why are you simultaneously telling me to stop posting in the same post that you're asking questions.

Steve_in_FL said:
Worse, you are making assumptions and accusations against people who don't merit it.

I disagree. I think they do merit it, and I've made my reasons why clear. In fact you'll notice that some posters who have disagreed with me I've not accused of anything.

Steve_in_FL said:
If you want to add me to the list of people who you think are asking you to shut up, so be it. But you have had your say, and then some. The horse is dead.

If so why are you flogging it?

Steve_in_FL said:
Can we please go back to talking about photography now?

Any time. I don't think I'm stopping you, and you don't need my permission. Contribute to any thread you think is more on topic with your interests. Stop reading and replying to this thread any time YOU choose.

--
Sammy.

My forum postings reflect my own opinions and not those of my employer. I'm not employed in the photo business.

Sammy Yousef · Oct 2, 2012

I'll tell you what. If people can stop asking the same questions about a thread a couple of years old, and stop basically asking me if I think I'm an expert or a trouble maker, and finding elaborate ways to tell me to shut up, I'll have very little else to say on the matter, won't I? We haven't actually been discussing civility for a couple of dozen posts now.

--
Sammy.

My forum postings reflect my own opinions and not those of my employer. I'm not employed in the photo business.

Steve Bingham · Oct 2, 2012

Sammy, please use a spell checker. They are free. Please continue on.

Sammy Yousef said:
Mako2011 said:

Sammy Yousef said:

Lets say there are 1000 users on a board.

200 of them are helpful,

20 of them are very vocal and abbrassive,

The rest are new or inexperienced, and ask questions and lurk.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Sammy Yousef said:

One more question and I'll not respond to your answer. I apologize if it seems harassing in any way. I really am simply trying to understand something. With this thread as the only backdrop, of those 3 groups....which do you put your posts here in? (This thread only)

Click to expand...

I was talking about users, and you're talking about threads. Not the same thing. You can't sum up a person based on any single thread or post (unless that is their only contribution to the board). The truth is those of us who post frequently play all 3 roles to varying degrees.

On this thread at least one other person has described advice I gave him earlier (in an unrelated thread) as useful. I have tried to help people on numerous occasions and I believe I succeeded on a number of those. I concede that I am not the most experienced person on the board. I am not a professional and some people here have been photographing longer than I have been alive. However my results (some of which are in my gallery) have improved dramatically in the 7 or 8 years I've been using a DSLR. I am proud of the photos in my gallery. So you tell me - is that the response of a troll?

I can tell you with complete sincerity that I did not start this thread in the hope that I would be abused. But I'm guessing the only question you ask is that you consider me abbrasive and vocal. Well take a look at the thread. I've been abused, and not abused back. A lot of what you call reasonable has been nothing but simple character asssassination.

...and again the thread has turned to questioning my character instead of addressing the issue. Now why does it surprise you that constantly having my character questioned might be something I would take offence at? Funny how if I suggest that this is bullying, I am told I'm not helping my case. More of the same. I'm being told "Shut up, you're an idiot" in yet another (poorly disguised) flavour.

--
Sammy.

My forum postings reflect my own opinions and not those of my employer. I'm not employed in the photo business.

--
Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com
http://www.ghost-town-photography.com

Mako2011 · Oct 2, 2012

I think I found the thing that strikes me as the point and the solution. The thread should have been intended to point out that the forum, in general, would benefit from less malevolence/maliciousness tone. For those here that matter...that is a given and no need to point out. Though it certainly not a bad thing to restate now and then. In the last few months it has actually gotten quite better. It should also be noted that the nature of text only communication can lead to perceiving maliciousness when none actually exists. That to is something that should be avoided when possible.

Sammy Yousef said:
Sammy Yousef said:

Steve_in_FL wrote:
You can never eliminate rudeness entirely.

Click to expand...

...However I've repeatedly asked we all show restraint and be courteous to posters.

One way to achieve the goal of civil discussion in all things...is to actually do as you suggest and " show restraint and be courteous to posters." I think I was confused a bit by your message as you don't always do as you suggest and that simply threw off my understanding of you and lead to my questions. Yes you are generally always courteous but in this thread not as much. The unique nature of this thread in the D90 - D40 / D7000 - D3000 forum simply perhaps wrongly highlighted those less courteous examples and greatly detracted from the original goal. When any of us say one thing but do another it gets highlighted. Just hard to not notice. Human nature. Some simply tried to point that out and again...text only communication put up barriers to understanding. As dumb as this sounds, that's understandable

One solution or path to what you would like to see resides in the individual leading by example regardless of the previous or following post. Everyone knows that's never going to universally happen, but it's not all that important that it does. It really only needs to be important to the individual and he do it...the rest will follow...or they may not..it's still the best thing to do.

I apologize for sounding like some Nun on a soapbox....I have a drinking problem

Now a personal opinion.....best thing now would be that no more posts show up in this thread. I'll try and do as I say. Good Luck all.

Sammy Yousef · Oct 2, 2012

Steve Bingham said:
Sammy, please use a spell checker. They are free. Please continue on.

Just for kicks I did.
"apologize" is correct given I live in Australia.
"abbrassive" was just sloppy.
"asssassination" was unintentionally funny. This thread needed some humour.

--
Sammy.

My forum postings reflect my own opinions and not those of my employer. I'm not employed in the photo business.

Sammy Yousef · Oct 2, 2012

Mako2011 said:
I think I found the thing that strikes me as the point and the solution. The thread should have been intended to point out that the forum, in general, would benefit from less malevolence/maliciousness tone. For those here that matter...that is a given and no need to point out. Though it certainly not a bad thing to restate now and then. In the last few months it has actually gotten quite better.

I have found more than one post in the last couple of weeks where the OP was absolultely flamed. This is what prompted my initial post.

Mako2011 said:
It should also be noted that the nature of text only communication can lead to perceiving maliciousness when none actually exists. That to is something that should be avoided when possible.

Agreed. And this can be difficult when other posters have already "gotten the poster's back up" so to speak.

Mako2011 said:
One way to achieve the goal of civil discussion in all things...is to actually do as you suggest and " show restraint and be courteous to posters." I think I was confused a bit by your message as you don't always do as you suggest and that simply threw off my understanding of you and lead to my questions.

I am happy to be picked up on it if someone sees me misbehave. Picked up doesn't mean harped on. You'll find I'm quite reasonable and apologise if the other person doesn't escalate.

Mako2011 said:
Yes you are generally always courteous but in this thread not as much.

Given some of the posts, including ones that have been deleted, were downright abusive, I think I've shown restraint.

Mako2011 said:
The unique nature of this thread in the D90 - D40 / D7000 - D3000 forum simply perhaps wrongly highlighted those less courteous examples and greatly detracted from the original goal.

This is the forum in which I've seen the abuse. I don't often read other forums. Occasionally general, news higher Nikon, or software forums. But this is "where I live" so to speak, and this is where I saw the abuse. I don't think it was out of place to talk about this here.

What I found detracted most is harping on about a single example of me behaving badly.

Mako2011 said:
When any of us say one thing but do another it gets highlighted.

Sorry but repeatedly harping on this and either ignoring a discussion on courtesy or suggesting that discourtesy is justified because it can't be eliminated ignores the fact that it can be minimised.

Mako2011 said:
Just hard to not notice. Human nature. Some simply tried to point that out and again...text only communication put up barriers to understanding. As dumb as this sounds, that's understandable

I'm human, and I make mistakes. No argument there.

Mako2011 said:
One solution or path to what you would like to see resides in the individual leading by example regardless of the previous or following post. Everyone knows that's never going to universally happen, but it's not all that important that it does. It really only needs to be important to the individual and he do it...the rest will follow...or they may not..it's still the best thing to do.

But again this is an elaborate way of saying "shut up" and just lead by example. Leading by example won't minimise abusive threads by others. It won't address the issue at all. All the people that you say matter already know not to abuse, but others have defended their right to be rude on this thread repeatedly. Well it's not a right and there is a consequence. The ultimate consequence is the demise of the board if people are consistently abrasive and defend their right to be so.

Mako2011 said:
I apologize for sounding like some Nun on a soapbox....I have a drinking problem

hick ?

Mako2011 said:
Now a personal opinion.....best thing now would be that no more posts show up in this thread. I'll try and do as I say. Good Luck all.

I'm glad to see we're still conversing on other threads, and even occasionally agree. Probably the only glimmer of hope I see coming out of all this.

--
Sammy.

My forum postings reflect my own opinions and not those of my employer. I'm not employed in the photo business.

TAM63 · Oct 3, 2012

Sammy - wow. You sure seem to have a lot of anger. I wouldn't have thought I massively attacked your character or honestly said anything to justify that amount of anger directed towards me. And you've attributed thoughts to me that I didn't express, or even have.

At this point, I don't feel like you will accept anything other than completely agreeing with you. So, rather than address what you've said to/about me, I'll just wish you good luck.

Mako2011 · Oct 3, 2012

TAM63 said:
Sammy - wow. You sure seem to have a lot of anger. I wouldn't have thought I massively attacked your character or honestly said anything to justify that amount of anger directed towards me. And you've attributed thoughts to me that I didn't express, or even have.

At this point, I don't feel like you will accept anything other than completely agreeing with you. So, rather than address what you've said to/about me, I'll just wish you good luck.

That was a post that showed restraint and was indeed very courteous. We should all strive for that.

ott77n · Oct 3, 2012

Sammy Yousef said:
Sammy Yousef wrote:

I see nothing reasonable about supporting a poster whose entire point is to suggest that because I worded something badly a couple of years ago I have no right to call for or expect civil discussion on this board.

It is not about what you "worded badly" a couple of years ago. It is about you bringing it up today, as an example of the wrong done to you.

pixd90 · Oct 3, 2012

When we berate ourselves do we not bleed? Why do we not see the insanity in attacking our brethren? How blind can we be in denigrating our own?

Photography is understanding light. Why do we not see the light in knowing our true enemies?

I say “Nikonians Unite”. Sharpen your tongues for it is time to attack the Canonites.

On 10/10 a coordinated attack will commence and led by our own king of civility, General Sammy Yousef.

Mako2011 · Oct 3, 2012

pixd90 said:
When we berate ourselves do we not bleed? Why do we not see the insanity in attacking our brethren? How blind can we be in denigrating our own?

Photography is understanding light. Why do we not see the light in knowing our true enemies?

I say “Nikonians Unite”. Sharpen your tongues for it is time to attack the Canonites.

On 10/10 a coordinated attack will commence and led by our own king of civility, General Sammy Yousef.

That sounds like a call for jihad upon the infidels over in the Canon camp. I think it would be prudent to have a tail gate party first to put us in the best frame of mind.

I would also suggest we perhaps start small and first let loose the puppies of war on the Sigma Clan, regroup and then surprise attack the Olympus heathens with what forces we have left.

Who among us will volunteer to launch the Thread of Distraction?

herbymel · Oct 3, 2012

So how do we go about doing that...armed forces geared with malfunctioning SB900s set to full power and continuous flashing until they meltdown and our heathen foes are blinded by the light...

--
Herby

bluenoser23 · Oct 3, 2012

Mako2011 said:
Now a personal opinion.....best thing now would be that no more posts show up in this thread. I'll try and do as I say.

By my count you already have failed to follow your own advice at least twice:

1. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1034&message=42654604
2. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1034&message=42654821

Just sayin'

PS. I hope that wasn't too uncivil of me to point out!

--
James

Steve_in_FL · Oct 3, 2012

Before we start the Sigma war, I'm just thinking, maybe I outta whip out the ole guitar and lead us in a rousing rendition of Kumbaya. You know, to cement the brotherly love I feel springing up around us.

Seriously, I DO feel a sense of lowered tension and willingness to tolerate each other here. And yes, it IS ironic I am continuing to lengthen the thread! I never said I was perfect. And at least people are posting pleasantly now, right?

nuggy · Oct 3, 2012

I'm sorry but what does 6 pages of this have to do with this forum?

herbymel · Oct 3, 2012

nuggy said:
I'm sorry but what does 6 pages of this have to do with this forum?

I think we've explored that aspect of this thread already.
--
Herby

Sammy Yousef · Oct 3, 2012

herbymel said:
So how do we go about doing that...armed forces geared with malfunctioning SB900s set to full power and continuous flashing until they meltdown and our heathen foes are blinded by the light...

Well I was just planning to talk you all to death, but I could break into a rendition of "I am the very model of a modern major general". That is guaranteed to cause cerebral hemorrhage, or your money back.

I could even tailor the lyrics especially:
"I know the Nikon lenses in release date historical
From AI-S to AFS in order categorical
I understand equations, both the exposure and diffraction limit-el"

(By the way my background is Christian but these days describing myself as anything but atheist would be dishonest. Still especially with the current tensions, even I don't think it'd be wise to touch that jihadist comment with a 10ft barge pole. Even though this hasn't been the most pleasant conversation we're not yet at the stage where people are calling for beheadings).

--
Sammy.

My forum postings reflect my own opinions and not those of my employer. I'm not employed in the photo business.

Sammy Yousef · Oct 3, 2012

herbymel said:
nuggy said:

I'm sorry but what does 6 pages of this have to do with this forum?

Click to expand...

I think we've explored that aspect of this thread already.

That's okay Herbymel. The more the question is repeated the sooner this thread hits 150 posts.

--
Sammy.

My forum postings reflect my own opinions and not those of my employer. I'm not employed in the photo business.

What ever happened to civil argument?

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