Sonys big investment in Olympus - impact on m43?

discuss.

lowpine said:

discuss.

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You should mention 'Please' in civil countries.

My take is that within a couple of years Panasonic will be under strong attack.

Am.

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Minimal.

Sony's investment in Olympus is about much bigger things than cameras. Consumer imaging is far from being anything like the majority of either company's sales. Olympus is, fundamentally, a medical imaging company now. Pretty much all of us will be on the receiving end of an Olympus endoscope eventually, if we haven't already.

Probably doesn't even have much to do with the choice of sensor. Pentax, Nikon and Leica use Sony sensors too. It's just a component that can be sourced from one fab or another...

The latest press release does mention Sony bringing their expertise in 4K video to the table; if Olympus can compete with Panasonic in the arena of videography, that'll be a thing that improves the market for everyone.
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http://www.photoklarno.com

I have nothing to base this on, but general impressions and observations over the years...Panasonic came roaring out of the gate with the G1 and the early Olympus EP1 was always in catch up mode...until the OMD came out.

Olympus has always felt like the junior partner to Panasonic in many ways, probably because Panasonic just throws its weight around, plus it had the critical sensor, which they never shared the best of, with Olympus. Now, I think Panasonic will come under increasing pressure from the Sony Olympus partnership, and we will see continued divergence in MFT between Oly and Panny...this is not necessarily a bad thing, because competition breeds innovation.

What I worry about are the perception of MFT as a system breaking down into a couple of subsystems that share a lens mount and maybe a flash system, but not much else.

I understand that Olympus actually supplies certain subassemblies such as the shutter and flash circuitry to Panasonic, but people don't really see component level things like that. They see the different accessory ports, and the inability to share Oly and Panny accessories, they see the lens differences, and the Panny reliance on software correction for CA, which has been problematic for some users of Panny lenses on Oly cameras, they see the complete failure of Panny to have capable flash subsytem...fortunately all the Oly stuff seems to work on it, etc.

If you read the "purpose" under announcement, it clearly indicates the impact areas.

lowpine said:

(2) Camera Business

The two companies also aim to enhance their competitiveness, primarily in the area of compact digital cameras, by exploring opportunities for mutually beneficial transactions and collaboration between their respective camera businesses, including the supply of Olympus technologies such as camera lenses and mirror cells to Sony, and the provision of Sony image sensors to Olympus.

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-Sagar
http://www.olympuscafe.com

for a couple of years, but really didn't come front and center until the release of the E-M5. Oly=60% still and 40% video, and Pany is the reverse. OK....that's an oversimplification, but that's really how it's broken down.

I see the two companies' directions as complementary (glass half full?), with the further separation in the level of lenses they release. Oly's clearly working on higher quality primes and competent zooms. Notice I'm not calling them SG, HG, etc..... Pany will release higher quality zooms given their emphasis on video. That's why I think everyone's wish for an Olympus m4/3s-equivalent 12-60 is likely to remain just that: wishful thinking. IF we see that lens, it will appear when a camera above the E-M5 is released. I'm not holding my breath.

It's still not clear to me how this Sony/Olympus enterprise is corporately connected. Separate organization or separate line within the Olympus organization?

They are separate entities but Sony owns 11.5% of Olympus stock, making Sony the largest shareholder. There are no corporate connections beyond this, although this is rather significant as basically Sony owns over a tenth of Olympus.

They did announce a joint venture in medical imaging and possibly consumer compacts, but I don't think either will involve any sort of byzantine corporate structure.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444712904578023743949186694.html

mring1 said:

for a couple of years, but really didn't come front and center until the release of the E-M5. Oly=60% still and 40% video, and Pany is the reverse. OK....that's an oversimplification, but that's really how it's broken down.

I see the two companies' directions as complementary (glass half full?), with the further separation in the level of lenses they release. Oly's clearly working on higher quality primes and competent zooms. Notice I'm not calling them SG, HG, etc..... Pany will release higher quality zooms given their emphasis on video. That's why I think everyone's wish for an Olympus m4/3s-equivalent 12-60 is likely to remain just that: wishful thinking. IF we see that lens, it will appear when a camera above the E-M5 is released. I'm not holding my breath.

It's still not clear to me how this Sony/Olympus enterprise is corporately connected. Separate organization or separate line within the Olympus organization?

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amalric said:

My take is that within a couple of years Panasonic will be under strong attack.

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There are now 2 (or 3?) strong companies supporting Micro Four Thirds. Thee will be more Olympus camera body owners buying Panasonic lenses like the 20mm pancake and F/2.8 zooms, and also more people buying Panasonic bodies because of the great Olympus lens options. It goes both ways though, so maybe less people will buy Panasonic if Olympus has better options?

Anyway Micro Four Thirds now has Panasonic, Olympus and Sony (indirectly) supporting it. NEX has added Olympus, so it has improved for everyone!

The losers are Canon, Nikon, Samsung, etc. who are more isolated.

Yes, this is interesting, especially your asking if the system might break down in the long run.

Both of the partners might try to go FF at some point. Will they still do it with the same mount?

Oly more than a camera maker is an imaging division so it might be flexible enough to integrate easily with Sony.
Does it consider m4/3 strategic or just or a contingency?

At the moment m4/3 is still the most flexible system, so I don't think they are going to give it up.

Am.

Chas2 said:

I have nothing to base this on, but general impressions and observations over the years...Panasonic came roaring out of the gate with the G1 and the early Olympus EP1 was always in catch up mode...until the OMD came out.

Olympus has always felt like the junior partner to Panasonic in many ways, probably because Panasonic just throws its weight around, plus it had the critical sensor, which they never shared the best of, with Olympus. Now, I think Panasonic will come under increasing pressure from the Sony Olympus partnership, and we will see continued divergence in MFT between Oly and Panny...this is not necessarily a bad thing, because competition breeds innovation.

What I worry about are the perception of MFT as a system breaking down into a couple of subsystems that share a lens mount and maybe a flash system, but not much else.

I understand that Olympus actually supplies certain subassemblies such as the shutter and flash circuitry to Panasonic, but people don't really see component level things like that. They see the different accessory ports, and the inability to share Oly and Panny accessories, they see the lens differences, and the Panny reliance on software correction for CA, which has been problematic for some users of Panny lenses on Oly cameras, they see the complete failure of Panny to have capable flash subsytem...fortunately all the Oly stuff seems to work on it, etc.

Click to expand...

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Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric

lowpine said:

discuss.

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May impact four-thirds more in terms of developing a hybrid model to use both sets of lenses.

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"There's shadows in life, baby.." Jack Horner- Boogie Nights

Probably the biggest impact for Olympus micro four thirds users is that this deal probably increases the likelihood that Olympus will have access to Sony sensors for a long time to come. That's a very good thing. Panasonic may, in the long run, be sorry that they chose to withhold their better sensors from Olympus because they may have lost Olympus as a sensor customer for a very long time, if not permanently. That is bound to increase the per unit cost of Panasonic's sensor business. Does any other maker use Panny sensors?

Best comment read at Engadget:

"Every time Japanese companies merge, I fully expect Voltron to form..."

Could Olympus provide lenses for NEX systems or for the upcoming SONY fixed lens cameras?
It may be a cheaper alternative to Zeiss ?

Could Olympus also co-brand with Sony on developing their own 1", and/or MFT sensor fixed length camera a la RX?
Some good and very plausible speculations?
cheers,

Just Having Fun said:

amalric said:

My take is that within a couple of years Panasonic will be under strong attack.

Click to expand...

There are now 2 (or 3?) strong companies supporting Micro Four Thirds. Thee will be more Olympus camera body owners buying Panasonic lenses like the 20mm pancake and F/2.8 zooms, and also more people buying Panasonic bodies because of the great Olympus lens options. It goes both ways though, so maybe less people will buy Panasonic if Olympus has better options?

Anyway Micro Four Thirds now has Panasonic, Olympus and Sony (indirectly) supporting it. NEX has added Olympus, so it has improved for everyone!

The losers are Canon, Nikon, Samsung, etc. who are more isolated.

Click to expand...

Difficult to say. In the ongoing 'sensor war', Olympus is rather small, compared to the others. The strategic decision will come from Sony. In the mirrorless world Sony is not pitted against C & N but against Fuji and Panny, mainly as we see by technological dominance.

The only thing that matters for me as as a consumer is if the m4/3 consortium might be weakened, but from Sony's angle they might be more into using FF as the main lever of the attack.

Oly has a past experience in the OM lenses, so could it help Sony in designing its own lenses? It certainly can, but I wonder if it has the production facilities anymore.

Cropped systems already crowd the market, so as we see it is difficult to establish dominance. For the same reason it might not be covenient for anyone to weaken m4/3. The main adversary to Sony there, in terms of sensors, is Fuji rather than Panasonic.

Am.

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Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric

dv312 said:

Could Olympus provide lenses for NEX systems or for the upcoming SONY fixed lens cameras?
It may be a cheaper alternative to Zeiss ?

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Yes, see my comments above. Oly still has the Tetsuno factory in Japan where SHG glass was produced and even my 4/3 9-18, which has an impressive front element. That plant alone is the equivalent of a Zeiss or a Leica factory.

Oly chose the 4/3 format to optimise resolution across the frame. APS is different but the falloff at the edges, can be sensor compensated, so both companies might trade their know how.

dv312 said:

Could Olympus also co-brand with Sony on developing their own 1", and/or MFT sensor fixed length camera a la RX?
Some good and very plausible speculations?
cheers,

Click to expand...

As I said above the main drive of Sony's attack might come in FF, where they might want to increase their MS in respect to C&N. In the cropped world m4/3 works well, but so does NEX. Sony could get some advantage from Oly's designs to contain Fuji.

Sony's share in Oly is big enough to command some strategic decisions but not so big to force Olympus to work exclusively for Sony, say like Minolta did. So Oly has protected its m4/3 investment.

Mirrorless FF, or even FF is still an open game, and there lies Sony's interest I figure, since the margins are higher.

Oly has not the resources to go into that alone. I wonder if they are interested in being the junior partner to Sony there.

Panny might go alone in FF, so Oly might fall in a different camp, while still retaining the partnership in m4/3.

In terms of chess it seems a v. good move because now Oly can use the latest sensor technology from either brands.

I wish I knew the video side of the question, because there lies the competitive advantage of Panny, but I really don't. My argument is stills-centric.

Am.
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Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric

It seems Sony are interested in the medical departments of Olympus...something like that.

For Olympus Im guessing it means they might be provided with Sony sensors.

amalric said:

Oly has a past experience in the OM lenses, so could it help Sony in designing its own lenses? It certainly can, but I wonder if it has the production facilities anymore.

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If Sony wants help from Oly in lens design I assume they would fund any needed expansion in production facitilities.

MichaelKJ said:

MichaelKJ said:

Oly has a past experience in the OM lenses, so could it help Sony in designing its own lenses? It certainly can, but I wonder if it has the production facilities anymore.

Click to expand...

If Sony wants help from Oly in lens design I assume they would fund any needed expansion in production facitilities.

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Yes it could, although the agreement now mentions only minor P&S stuff.

I forgot to mention that Sony has as a main rival not only Fuji, but also Panny for video.

Am.

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Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric

Very true, although the rivalry in video extends beyond Sony versus Panny.

While Sony has significant assets, their stock price is down 70% from what it was 5 years ago and is at a 30 year low. They are trying to reverse their losses by moving into new product markets and Oly's medical business is clearly the main impetus for Sony's investment. While possible synergies between the two companies camera divisions were mentioned, I think we will have to wait and see how serious they are about trying to take advantage of Oly's expertise in lens development.

dv312 said:

Could Olympus provide lenses for NEX systems or for the upcoming SONY fixed lens cameras?
It may be a cheaper alternative to Zeiss ?

Could Olympus also co-brand with Sony on developing their own 1", and/or MFT sensor fixed length camera a la RX?
Some good and very plausible speculations?
cheers,

Click to expand...

Aye. Olympus makes great optics, and it would be interesting if they started making lenses for other companies. I've never fully understood why most camera manufacturers are so unwilling to make lenses for other mounts. Everybody is saying that the lenses is where the R&D really pays off, so why should it bother Nikon if somebody would use their lens for a Canon camera. It always smelled to me like a "gentleman's agreement" between the major manufacturers.

Anyhow, NEX is definitely a system in want of more choises regarding lenses. And if Olympus were to make lenses made for APS-sized sensors though, maybe a Oly APS camera wouldn't be so far off? I'm happy with the size-to-performance of the micro-four thirds, but for those who are looking for that elusive 2/3 of a stop advantage there is in going to an APS-size sensor...