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Anyone buying APS-C is taking a punt now.

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Louis_Dobson said:
However, if you can afford a D600, why would you buy a D7000? No one would choose a D7000. If size is important get an OM-D. If size is not important (or if you are stupid or inexperienced enough to imagine it does not, in many cases) then get a D600. The only selling point of a D7000 is price, and on that front it will progressively more squeezed.
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A system requires an investment from the buyer so it's not realistic to say someone will just buy a D600 for £1900 over a D7000 for £700. The price difference alone to many won't be worth it. D600 looks nice, but not nice enough at that price. And well you work it out the spare change leaves a decent bit for some lenses and a flash for example.

No point having a D600 without lenses to use.

Let me put it like this, how many D7k's has Nikon sold? Or how many OM-D's in comparison? I'd wager Nikon have hugely outsold Olympus. So you have your answer there.
Louis_Dobson said:
There are hardly any DoF control benefits.
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That is not correct there are noticeable DOF benefits for a 1.5x crop APS-C sensor
Louis_Dobson said:
If a D4 were £50 and an OM-D £5000, I would buy an OM-D. I owned a D3 for four years, and eventually I stopped taking photos. Too heavy, spoiled my fun, rather do something else instead. Replaced with MFT, happy again. It doesn't matter how cheap FF gets, it is no threat to MFT, because people who want MFT do not want to carry FF. However, cheap FF will simply kill APS-C stone dead. And that is exactly what is going to happen.
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There are no cheap FF DSLR's. Best you can do is a s/h Canon 5d (not a bad price but that's it for bargain hunters) A 5dMkII costs just under £1500 odd

6d is currently £1800 pre order (not exactly cheap) a D600 around £100 more

None are cheap. I'd love to see a cheap FF body, this isn't it though. At £1200 odd sure I'll buy the yes it's pretty cheap (in relative terms)

FF won't kill APS-C because APS-C is more affordable and always will be. Makes will not dump the successful format that it is.
Louis_Dobson said:
Nonsense. Most people are pretty stupid and easily influenced, and the marketing machine convinced the silly saps that big sensors were better than small sensors - and they could see it must be true because really big sensors cost much more. But really big sensors don't cost much more now. Slap a D600, 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200 down next to a GH3, 7-14, 12-35 and 35-100 and even the dimmest person can see that the D600 is going to cost you a lot more than mere money
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Until I see OM-D uses shooting at pro level weddings and events I'll stick to my guns saying higher end APS-C and FF dominates the market at this point.

GH3 won't not even see the hands of a pro shooter they're not interested in EVF's or the small 4/3 sensor.
Louis_Dobson said:
4/3rds was the right direction in most ways, but Oly could not find a proper sensor supplier, they wasted a lot of time and energy on those stupid f2 zooms instead of some basic primes, and they were sadly caught out by the bonkers high ISO obsession (which seems to be dying down now thank eff).
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Reality is they pretty much abandoned their DSLR users on 4/3 (Which I predicted years ago)

It's great that micro 4/3 is better suited to the "smaller body" ideas (no idea what the GH3 is thinking though) great that micro 4/3 users have a couple of higher end bodies to use.

I'm all for folks having a choice and that's a good thing.

There is no "punt" with APS-C it's the most successful larger sensor format to date.

It's the safest systems to buy into because none of the makers will abandon it (suicide from a financial point) and a FF DSLR will never cost £500 odd at least not for a decade even then I doubt it.
Louis_Dobson said:
--
Click to expand...
 
illy said:
you know what Jim, i've found this whole thread the same as saying a one handed man has no use for 2 gloves, as a keen APS-C shooter with big heavy lenses i have little care for the snobbery shown here, because that is how comes across, i'm still considering that D600........mmmmmmmmmmm
Click to expand...
I see that onestopdigital { http://www.onestop-digital.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=34117 } are selling the D600 for £1540. I believe that they are importers but i have bought a few hard to get items from them over the years . Including recently the Panasonic 12-35 for £770 with no troubles , not bad prices for those amongst us not going on SE Asian odysseys :). All you need as FF shooter to get the same AOV and effective DOF is a 2xTC . I am glad that I am not a long telephoto shooter.
Jim
 
Barry Fitzgerald said:
jim stirling said:
No matter how many times you repeat it, you remain wrong.
Click to expand...
Firmly on target and nailed it!

In every single image quality criteria when the best mFT is compared to the best FF. The FF camera is better be it DR, shadow noise, SNR, Tonal range and colour sensitivity now you can argue that these differences are not important to you but it doesn’t change the fact that they exist. Really all you are doing is playing to the audience with a message many of them are happy to gobble up.
Member said:
This need to compare to the "big boys" is a rather annoying trait that seems to be associated with Olympus users in particular with the Olympus DSLR forum being previously full of it. If you look at the other forums you will see a fraction of these types of posts. I suspect that what you and others are doing is actually convincing yourself
Jim
Click to expand...
Our OP forgets that APS-C is "firmly established" in the market.
It wiped 4/3 DSLR's out
APS-C users have an upgrade path to FF if they wish

Nothing will change that
Click to expand...
Member said:
There is no "punt" on buying an APS-C DSLR you're as safe as any camera system could be.
Click to expand...
The way digital is going predicting where it will develop is about as easy as picking lottery numbers. Its no problem to prdeict XY and Z , damn hard to get it right though :).

With Sony entering the one inch sensor market I am curious to see how that develops, as there is huge potential for a truly compact system. The results from the Sony RX100 are pretty impressive given the sensor size. Nikon also delivered a pretty responsive performer in their first gen 1 system models with good AF performance.

Jim
 
jim stirling said:
Barry Fitzgerald said:
jim stirling said:
No matter how many times you repeat it, you remain wrong.
Click to expand...
Firmly on target and nailed it!

In every single image quality criteria when the best mFT is compared to the best FF. The FF camera is better be it DR, shadow noise, SNR, Tonal range and colour sensitivity now you can argue that these differences are not important to you but it doesn’t change the fact that they exist. Really all you are doing is playing to the audience with a message many of them are happy to gobble up.
jim stirling said:
This need to compare to the "big boys" is a rather annoying trait that seems to be associated with Olympus users in particular with the Olympus DSLR forum being previously full of it. If you look at the other forums you will see a fraction of these types of posts. I suspect that what you and others are doing is actually convincing yourself
Jim
Click to expand...
Our OP forgets that APS-C is "firmly established" in the market.
It wiped 4/3 DSLR's out
APS-C users have an upgrade path to FF if they wish

Nothing will change that
Click to expand...
jim stirling said:
There is no "punt" on buying an APS-C DSLR you're as safe as any camera system could be.
Click to expand...
The way digital is going prdicting where it will develop is about as easy as picking lottery numbers. Its no problem to prdeict XY and Z , damn hard to get it right though :).

With Sony entering the one inch sensor market I am curious to see how that develops, as there is huge potential for a truly compact system. The results from the Sony RX100 are pretty impressive given the sensor size. Nikon also delivered a pretty responsive performer in their first gen 1 system models with good AF performance.
Click to expand...
Nikon has delivered their first fast prime for the 1 series, if the second generation gets the Sony sensor, then the system looks to have significant capabiliy, as well as the unmatched speed it has at the moment.
--
Bob
 
Andr2 said:
Definitely not waiting for the D400.

Sold my D300, nearly bought EM5, but the Ergonomics and Menu didn't agree with me.

GH3 looks to me at the moment the best Camera FOR ME !!! To some people this camera apparently is a sham!
Click to expand...
I look at the GH3 as either a video camera (and I only do p&s video, so not interested) or a DSLR replacement with the benefits of mirrorless (and I'm more interested in compact mirrorless as a second system) ... I haven't tried a recent m43, but if the AF is as good as reported, then with the f/2.8 zooms and the upcoming 150/2.8 and the portrait prime, this has the makings of a DSLR replacement ... with the benefits of mirrorless (a bit more compact overall, vibration free, full time LV, EVF, articulating LCD). With the benefit of being able to pick up a cheap GF body for times when you want a compact option.

I've been looking at mirrorless since the Pen was a prototype, opted for a NEX-5 (before m43 was promising a portrait prime), have been eyeballing upgrades including the NEX-6, the Fuji and new m43 models, but in the end, I think I'm going to go back to the DSLR and pick up a prosumer p&s for a truly compact option.
  • Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
bobn2 said:
jim stirling said:
Barry Fitzgerald said:
jim stirling said:
No matter how many times you repeat it, you remain wrong.
Click to expand...
Firmly on target and nailed it!

In every single image quality criteria when the best mFT is compared to the best FF. The FF camera is better be it DR, shadow noise, SNR, Tonal range and colour sensitivity now you can argue that these differences are not important to you but it doesn’t change the fact that they exist. Really all you are doing is playing to the audience with a message many of them are happy to gobble up.
bobn2 said:
This need to compare to the "big boys" is a rather annoying trait that seems to be associated with Olympus users in particular with the Olympus DSLR forum being previously full of it. If you look at the other forums you will see a fraction of these types of posts. I suspect that what you and others are doing is actually convincing yourself
Jim
Click to expand...
Our OP forgets that APS-C is "firmly established" in the market.
It wiped 4/3 DSLR's out
APS-C users have an upgrade path to FF if they wish

Nothing will change that
Click to expand...
bobn2 said:
There is no "punt" on buying an APS-C DSLR you're as safe as any camera system could be.
Click to expand...
The way digital is going prdicting where it will develop is about as easy as picking lottery numbers. Its no problem to prdeict XY and Z , damn hard to get it right though :).

With Sony entering the one inch sensor market I am curious to see how that develops, as there is huge potential for a truly compact system. The results from the Sony RX100 are pretty impressive given the sensor size. Nikon also delivered a pretty responsive performer in their first gen 1 system models with good AF performance.
Click to expand...
Nikon has delivered their first fast prime for the 1 series, if the second generation gets the Sony sensor, then the system looks to have significant capabiliy, as well as the unmatched speed it has at the moment.
--
Bob
Click to expand...
I think that it is an area worth watching perhaps the 1 inch sensor combined with FF will see off all the other formats :). I have tried out a mates V1 with a few FF lenses on the adaptor with surprisingly well {to me anyway} results regarding speed and accuracy. A second gen Sony sensor combined with second gen Nikon tech could be quite a pocket rocket
Jim
 
Last year, FF was pretty much absent from PK, and the high end APS bodies dominated: D7000, 7D.

This year, it's nothing but FF: D600, 6D, A99. One new APS body: Pentax K5.

I tend to think this is how the dslr makers are fighting the mirrorless onslaught: they can't match it on size, so they're going with a larger sensor.

It's all a marketing game anyway. Unlike the 5D and Kodak 14n days, current FF isn't that much better than current APS, which isn't that much better than the best M43. But, if it keeps the gearheads buying...
 
TrapperJohn said:
Last year, FF was pretty much absent from PK, and the high end APS bodies dominated: D7000, 7D.

This year, it's nothing but FF: D600, 6D, A99. One new APS body: Pentax K5.

I tend to think this is how the dslr makers are fighting the mirrorless onslaught: they can't match it on size, so they're going with a larger sensor.
Click to expand...
Why do they need to match mirrorless?
TrapperJohn said:
It's all a marketing game anyway. Unlike the 5D and Kodak 14n days, current FF isn't that much better than current APS, which isn't that much better than the best M43.
Click to expand...
Nope, no better.
TrapperJohn said:
But, if it keeps the gearheads buying...
Click to expand...
--
-sergey
 
jim stirling said:
illy said:
you know what Jim, i've found this whole thread the same as saying a one handed man has no use for 2 gloves, as a keen APS-C shooter with big heavy lenses i have little care for the snobbery shown here, because that is how comes across, i'm still considering that D600........mmmmmmmmmmm
Click to expand...
I see that onestopdigital { http://www.onestop-digital.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=34117 } are selling the D600 for £1540. I believe that they are importers but i have bought a few hard to get items from them over the years . Including recently the Panasonic 12-35 for £770 with no troubles , not bad prices for those amongst us not going on SE Asian odysseys :). All you need as FF shooter to get the same AOV and effective DOF is a 2xTC . I am glad that I am not a long telephoto shooter.
Jim
Click to expand...
i',m in no rush to buy anything just yet, so i'm quite happy if these obsolescent machine become cheaper because of it, plus it might also make clearer Nikon's intent with the DX range, i'm having trouble finding the logic of replacing a 10mp camera to one with a crop mode of 10mp. If worse comes to worse i'll just likely get a D300s to stick my monster lens on
--
Hello Cleveland!
 
TrapperJohn said:
Last year, FF was pretty much absent from PK, and the high end APS bodies dominated: D7000, 7D.

This year, it's nothing but FF: D600, 6D, A99. One new APS body: Pentax K5.

I tend to think this is how the dslr makers are fighting the mirrorless onslaught: they can't match it on size, so they're going with a larger sensor.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's quite like this.. Camera development takes several years. In all likelihood, the 6D, D600 and A99 were already under development at the last Photokina (which was 2 years ago, not last year btw).

This seems to be a common misconception, that camera makers decide to make a camera in direct response to the competition and rush it out in a matter of a few months to try to gain or regain market share.

Experts have long predicted that FF would drop into the range of higher tier APS-C cameras, then eventually into mid-range, to the extent that eventually FF cameras would be re-established as the "every person's slr". That has been a long term goal because most manufacturers would prefer to have a single sensor size to offer, reducing R&D and production costs of both bodies and lenses. (This is why I believe that m4/3 was Olympus's goal at the outset of using 4/3.)

Low priced FF is not the "latest big thing", because Sony first struck that chord with the A850 3 years ago.

It's really only "enthusiasts" absorbed with aspects of IQ that 90% of camera buyers don't care nearly as much about who think in terms of mirrorless vs FF. Anyone else-especially the manufacturers-will tell you that for most people, smaller is better and trumps IQ. It's why phones are currently used for over half the photos posted online, and that number is growing.
TrapperJohn said:
It's all a marketing game anyway. Unlike the 5D and Kodak 14n days, current FF isn't that much better than current APS, which isn't that much better than the best M43. But, if it keeps the gearheads buying...
Click to expand...
So true. But of course, some of the gearheads don't want to accept that they may simply be falling for marketing hype. That said, I am considering one of the latest FF cameras, not as a replacement for 4/3 or m4/3 gear, but for use in situations where there are some advantages to FF that don't come down to dxo scores or theoretical comparisons.

So, I'm personally looking to a kit in the future that would involve both FF and m4/3, with m4/3 handling about 90% of what I do. That's because I do have projects that would involve enlargements for which FF is better suited. Also, the video specs of the A99 are impressive, with focus peaking being a desirable feature that sadly is missing from the GH3 and EM5.

But I'm still not 100% convinced the investment in FF would be worth it beyond a certain self-satisfaction that others, including potential clients, wouldn't notice. They don't seem to notice now, and I'm using an E520.

--

Some people operate cameras. Others use them to create images. There is a difference.

http://ikkens.zenfolio.com/

http://sarob-w.deviantart.com/
 
bobn2 said:
bobn2 said:
With Sony entering the one inch sensor market I am curious to see how that develops, as there is huge potential for a truly compact system. The results from the Sony RX100 are pretty impressive given the sensor size. Nikon also delivered a pretty responsive performer in their first gen 1 system models with good AF performance.
Click to expand...
Nikon has delivered their first fast prime for the 1 series, if the second generation gets the Sony sensor, then the system looks to have significant capabiliy, as well as the unmatched speed it has at the moment.
--
Bob
Click to expand...
I don't know how to interpret this .. but Aptina will start selling what looks exctly like V1/J1's sensor ...

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.gr/2012/09/aptina-announces-1-inch-10mp-sensor-for.html
 
dethis2 said:
bobn2 said:
dethis2 said:
With Sony entering the one inch sensor market I am curious to see how that develops, as there is huge potential for a truly compact system. The results from the Sony RX100 are pretty impressive given the sensor size. Nikon also delivered a pretty responsive performer in their first gen 1 system models with good AF performance.
Click to expand...
Nikon has delivered their first fast prime for the 1 series, if the second generation gets the Sony sensor, then the system looks to have significant capabiliy, as well as the unmatched speed it has at the moment.
--
Bob
Click to expand...
I don't know how to interpret this .. but Aptina will start selling what looks exctly like V1/J1's sensor ...

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.gr/2012/09/aptina-announces-1-inch-10mp-sensor-for.html
Click to expand...
That is the V1/J1 sensor. Presumably Nikon had an exclusive for a fixed time period. I didn't know it had DR-PIX, though - that is interesting information.
--
Bob
 
bobn2 said:
dethis2 said:
I don't know how to interpret this .. but Aptina will start selling what looks exctly like V1/J1's sensor ...

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.gr/2012/09/aptina-announces-1-inch-10mp-sensor-for.html
Click to expand...
That is the V1/J1 sensor. Presumably Nikon had an exclusive for a fixed time period. I didn't know it had DR-PIX, though - that is interesting information.
--
Bob
Click to expand...
Thats why it looks like a dual mode sensor (look at Dxo's DR curve for V1) changing mode at ISO400.

Perhaps this is the reason Dxo suspected cooked raws for J1/V1 ...

It now looks logical the very high FWC in your calculations at sensorgen, but maybe you could rework the analysis using separately the two modes ...
 
Louis_Dobson said:
as I have been predicting for five years, FF costs have now fallen into the APS-C area. So if you build up and extensive range of APS-C lenses because you cannot currently afford FF, you are buying into dying system.
Click to expand...
Louis_Dobson said:
For those who are not cash strapped your options are:
Click to expand...
Louis_Dobson said:
Shoot mostly static objects, size and weight and issue - MFT.
Click to expand...
Louis_Dobson said:
Shoot mostly moving objects, size and weight an issue - APS-C, for now, but you have a problem sunshine.
Click to expand...
Louis_Dobson said:
Size and weight not an issue - FF.
Click to expand...
You're totally right about it, we're talking about MARGINS and GABS here, sooner or later -- anything smaller would become a historical event, the FF might even become another history, when the "Sensor" technology take a dramatic turn. I think most formats would become diminished in any way.

Cheers.
 
Louis_Dobson said:
as I have been predicting for five years, FF costs have now fallen into the APS-C area. So if you build up and extensive range of APS-C lenses because you cannot currently afford FF, you are buying into dying system.

For those who are not cash strapped your options are:

Shoot mostly static objects, size and weight and issue - MFT.

Shoot mostly moving objects, size and weight an issue - APS-C, for now, but you have a problem sunshine.

Size and weight not an issue - FF.
--
Click to expand...
Hello Louis

I am sorry to say but your analysis is short sided and wrong on several counts. Please mark your posting and look at it in five years from now. you will be amazed of how far off you were
the trend is towards smaller sensors NOT bigger ones .

Harold

--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit
 
Dennis said:
Andr2 said:
Definitely not waiting for the D400.

Sold my D300, nearly bought EM5, but the Ergonomics and Menu didn't agree with me.

GH3 looks to me at the moment the best Camera FOR ME !!! To some people this camera apparently is a sham!
Click to expand...
I look at the GH3 as either a video camera (and I only do p&s video, so not interested) or a DSLR replacement with the benefits of mirrorless (and I'm more interested in compact mirrorless as a second system) ... I haven't tried a recent m43, but if the AF is as good as reported, then with the f/2.8 zooms and the upcoming 150/2.8 and the portrait prime, this has the makings of a DSLR replacement ... with the benefits of mirrorless (a bit more compact overall, vibration free, full time LV, EVF, articulating LCD). With the benefit of being able to pick up a cheap GF body for times when you want a compact option.
Click to expand...
Agree with the above, the same reasoning for me. Not to much in Video, but can at least leave my camcorder behind and only carry this with the lenses you mentioned.

If I were to have my old d300 with the equivalent lenses, it would be a lot bulkier and heavier.

Looked at all mirroless options, including nex5 and 7. Again ergonomics and Menu implementation turned me off.

This GH3 looks to me physically and Spec. wise the best compromise for me.
Still want to get it in my hands to try out before I buy.
This would be for me compact enough.

Definitely not going back to DSLR
Dennis said:
I've been looking at mirrorless since the Pen was a prototype, opted for a NEX-5 (before m43 was promising a portrait prime), have been eyeballing upgrades including the NEX-6, the Fuji and new m43 models, but in the end, I think I'm going to go back to the DSLR and pick up a prosumer p&s for a truly compact option.
  • Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
Click to expand...
--
André
 
When mft first came out I wrote something similar over on Sony dslr, although I suggested it would take a few years. I was more or less universally derided.

APS-C moving mirror is just bad design. It was a compromise format so that existing ff lenses in every photographers bag would fit the new digital cameras (as ff sensors were too expensive at that time). I argued then, and still argue, that the field would gradually split between ff and aps-c/mft mirrorless sensor cameras. It makes zero sense to have an old size body and throw away so much of the image size.

How long since Canon has come out with a new APSC dslr? All the buzz for new Canikon models are for FF. The head of Fuji has just done an interview discussing the growth ion demand for ff and planned Fuji responses.

One thing has changed since my original prediction, the explosion of camera phones. In the next few years I think these will improve to the point where P&S numbers really drop away. We will then have serious photographers using mft/Nex type systems or ff whether MILC or traditional and very small high qual;ity models like the Sony RX1 or RX100 or similar from other companies ithat are truly for shirt pockets.

Very hard to see traditional APS-C dslr having a future beyond 5 years at the most.
--
Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia
 
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